Pro Tools HD TDM How many average plugins can you run on the dsp's?

[vseanv]

Hi, I have searched the forum for a related question and could not find one, but if you know of one please feel free to forward me to it and I apologize for the possible repost.

I am currently looking to upgrade my Daw. At the moment I am convinced Pro Tools HD is for me. Currently working with Cubase 4 This will be a significant upgrade and I want to use my budget to best serve my needs. On top of that I am new to the TDM DSP game and am curious as to the average amount of plugins the TDM system can run and still keep running pretty smoothly?

I know this can be variable based on sample rate, the load different plugins can put on the system and a whole slew of things but I'm looking for a ball park.

On average my sessions consist of around 30-40 audio tracks at 44.1K 24 Bit (But have been known to go into the 60's and 80's) and for the most part end up with some kind of compression, eq or both plugins on each, with a couple different reverb's on some sends. Since Cubase has a freeze track feature this can be done without the computer getting too upset (although it gets kinda annoying to freeze and unfreeze to edit). I also like to run a lot of VST synths EG. EZ drummer, NI Absynth, NI Battery as well as using Reason as a slave on and off depending on the needs of the song. Basically I'm looking to run at least 50-60 TDM plugin instances per average session, and save as much native processing as possible for Native synths and a few native only plugins.

Could that amount of tracks and plugins easily be done with Protools HD 1 TDM before having to dig into native resorces? Or would I need to look at PT HD 2 Or 3??

If possible try putting your most commonly used TDM plugin instance repeated on as many tracks as possible at 44.1K 24BIT and see how many you get before your system starts to complain while running PT HD 1, 2 or 3.


Any help is EXTREMELY appreciated.

Thanks very much :D

Sean

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by vseanv

Hi, I have searched the forum for a related question and could not find one, but if you know of one please feel free to forward me to it and I apologize for the possible repost.

I am currently looking to upgrade my Daw. At the moment I am convinced Pro Tools HD is for me. Currently working with Cubase 4 This will be a significant upgrade and I want to use my budget to best serve my needs. On top of that I am new to the TDM DSP game and am curious as to the average amount of plugins the TDM system can run and still keep running pretty smoothly?

I know this can be variable based on sample rate, the load different plugins can put on the system and a whole slew of things but I'm looking for a ball park.

On average my sessions consist of around 30-40 audio tracks at 44.1K 24 Bit (But have been known to go into the 60's and 80's) and for the most part end up with some kind of compression, eq or both plugins on each, with a couple different reverb's on some sends. Since Cubase has a freeze track feature this can be done without the computer getting too upset (although it gets kinda annoying to freeze and unfreeze to edit). I also like to run a lot of VST synths EG. EZ drummer, NI Absynth, NI Battery as well as using Reason as a slave on and off depending on the needs of the song. Basically I'm looking to run at least 50-60 TDM plugin instances per average session, and save as much native processing as possible for Native synths and a few native only plugins.

Could that amount of tracks and plugins easily be done with Protools HD 1 TDM before having to dig into native resorces? Or would I need to look at PT HD 2 Or 3??

If possible try putting your most commonly used TDM plugin instance repeated on as many tracks as possible at 44.1K 24BIT and see how many you get before your system starts to complain while running PT HD 1, 2 or 3.


Any help is EXTREMELY appreciated.

Thanks very much :D

Sean

TDM plugins run on DSP chips on PCI cards within the host computer, not using the host's native processing power. The DSP usage of different TDM plugins varies WIDELY. You can track/mix fairly effectively ITB blending RTAS and TDM plugin usage with a quad/eight core intel mac and an HD3accel pcie - and HD2accel pcie will work too but you are going to be using for a lot more RTAS which can make ADC more complicated...

[hummer]

i work in HD at studios, LE at home. (if i must)

i am always blown away by the fact that when i get my LE sessions (from a dinosaur of a powerbook) loaded into an HD1 system, the DSP can't handle it all in TDM, and i end up using an almost equal number of RTAS. (and, as i'm sure many of us can attest to, this is a major PITA, because you can't have a TDM plug followed by an RTAS plug, so you spend 30 minutes copying and pasting plug settings!)

if you must go HD, you're going to need more DSP than HD1 provides, at the track/plugin counts you're talking about. HD 1 does 48 voices, right? you will be surprised how few plugs you can run with HD1, especially if you're gonna do some TDM synths, and ANY reverbs.

MHO? go native. HD will be native before you know it (this is a fact). track freezing is a fantastic feature (as you know) and pro tools doesn't do it, for whatever absurd reason... (oh wait.. if you could freeze, then you wouldn't need to spend 10k on DSP cards!)

with all the synth-ing you're talking about, i can't imagine you'd be happier in HD. you say you want to use your "budget to best serve" your needs? Logic man!

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by hummer

i work in HD at studios, LE at home. (if i must)

because you can't have a TDM plug followed by an RTAS plug,

Yes you can. Its been that way for a while now! Maybe you're on an older version?

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by hummer

HD will be native before you know it (this is a fact).

Says who?

[computa]

have never run out of dsp with HD2 accell

[hummer]

Originally Posted by toolskid

Yes you can. Its been that way for a while now! Maybe you're on an older version?

ah, yes. i use 6.x
good to know that has been addressed.
however, this does not change the fact that HD1 is insufficient for the original poster. that was my real point.

that, and the synth/sound design-focused nature of other DAWs that are more affordable, and arguably just as "professional." but c'mon, we've all had this conversation. i actually adore pro tools.. i just don't think you necessarily *need* to have HD to do "professional" level work.

Says who?

RE: native...

interesting story... i think it would be inappropriate to reveal my source, but without naming names...

i had the opportunity to attend a small (<10 ppl) forum of audio engineers about a year and a half ago. the guest speaker was a prominent systems design and audio engineer who is very heavily involved with digidesign as a consultant, spokesperson, and DSP programmer. you all know the name.

anyway, this person made it very clear that pro tools is on a crash course with native. he specifically said to pay attention to how pro tools would be slowly beefing up the LE system options... since then, we've seen: the expanded LE (music production toolkit) with higher track counts, almost every TDM plugin become available as RTAS (including his own plugs, which were TDM-only until recently), m-powered and the slow decline of hardware lock-in, DV toolkit 2, etc, etc.

so, when i said "this is a fact," i guess i should've clarified: an extremely reliable source, whom i trust, told me so! (PM me if you absolutely must know who it was)

i mean, if you have these expansions and a nice new computer, you can run as many tracks as HD1, with very similar options and DSP capabilities.

IMO, dedicated DSP is simply not quite as necessary as it once was.
or, maybe i'm crazy!

[vseanv]

Thanks for the advice guys. Hummer I appreciate your in depth responses. To be honest I love working in Cubase and find the limitations Digi keeps on protools a little counter intuitive. Not to diss them I have worked in protools on and off and love the editing and overall program. I would in fact already have an LE system if it wasn't for the 32 track limitation and lack of freeze track. I understand they want to sell the HD systems but you gotta put into consideration that the future generations will be the ones buying their systems and if they are all grow up using Logic and Cubase/Nuendo because of small things like Freeze track and track counts limited only by your CPU set up. Digi could easily be roned. I'm sure this has been discussed to a ridiculous level. So apologize for opening old wounds haha.

To answer your question as to my logic. To be honest I am sacrificing some logic simply for image sake. With PT being the "Industry Standard" I find when I mention I work on Cubase I raise some eyebrows. I know I could easily spend the 12-13,000 on a Mac Pro that would double as ground control for Nasa and run native Cubase/Nuendo like a dream and I might just say **** it and do that (Hence my Queries) But to a client who's only knowledge is that PT is king. It's a little hard to convince them.

It's good to hear the PT will eventually go native, (and hopefully drop it's prices) God knows if they add freeze track and take off track limitations I'm in, and i'll spend the extra cash on an Icon or a control 24.

[vseanv]

Computa, how many plugs do you usually run on your HD 2 before native?

[s.d.finley]

Originally Posted by vseanv

Computa, how many plugs do you usually run on your HD 2 before native?

It all depends on the plug in. Some plugs use a whole dsp chip, others use 1/10th or less of a chip.

So, if I use plugs that are really efficient, I could get almost almost 100 plug ins just on the TDM cards on my HD2 accel system. Or more, or less...more if I use rtas, and my UAD card too...

[bogus]

I have a PTLE system with a 003+octamicd+a few other preamps which gives me 16ins. It runs on a dual core 2.4ghz pc with 2 gb ram. The pc maxes out at about 30-40 tracks with processing, which is a pain in the ass.

I was considering getting a PT HD1 system with a 96 i/o, but I've decided to go for a new Mac Pro 8-core and maybe get HD when I can afford the whole hd3-system.

[vseanv]

Does protools give you an in depth analysis of how much a particular plugin uses of DSP chips? or is it just a bar from 1-100 and when it's full your done?

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by hummer

i work in HD at studios, LE at home. (if i must)

i am always blown away by the fact that when i get my LE sessions (from a dinosaur of a powerbook) loaded into an HD1 system, the DSP can't handle it all in TDM, and i end up using an almost equal number of RTAS. (and, as I'm sure many of us can attest to, this is a major PITA, because you can't have a TDM plug followed by an RTAS plug, so you spend 30 minutes copying and pasting plug settings!)

if you must go HD, you're going to need more DSP than HD1 provides, at the track/plugin counts you're talking about. HD 1 does 48 voices, right? you will be surprised how few plugs you can run with HD1, especially if you're gonna do some TDM synths, and ANY reverbs.

MHO? go native. HD will be native before you know it (this is a fact). track freezing is a fantastic feature (as you know) and pro tools doesn't do it, for whatever absurd reason... (oh wait.. if you could freeze, then you wouldn't need to spend 10k on DSP cards!)

with all the synth-ing you're talking about, i can't imagine you'd be happier in HD. you say you want to use your "budget to best serve" your needs? Logic man!

All this bravado.
All this hullaballoo... and you are working on PT 6.xx.

Unbelievable!

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by hummer

MHO? go native. HD will be native before you know it (this is a fact). track freezing is a fantastic feature (as you know) and pro tools doesn't do it, for whatever absurd reason... (oh wait.. if you could freeze, then you wouldn't need to spend 10k on DSP cards!)

Record your track down to a new track then right click on old track and inactive and hide.
Simple Protools Freeze ...

[Fidelis]

I have a PT HD accell3 on a G5 dual 2.0. Never run out of DSP. The only song I have almost reach all the TDM resources was on a pop tune with more than 60 channels at 96kHz.

Different plugins uses different chips and porcentages.. the best way to you to undestand it is to take a look on a PT HD, load a session, load some plugins and watch the SYSTEM USAGE window . That window will show you everything you're asking now.

I think you'll be fine with a new Mac Pro and a HD2, but with you have the money I'd go HD3.

Good luck.

[computa]

Originally Posted by vseanv

Computa, how many plugs do you usually run on your HD 2 before native?

dont use native plugs ever on HD

[vseanv]

Awesome thanks for all the advice guys really appreciate all your help. I will probably go HD 2 for now and maybe pick up a third card later on down the road.

Thanks

Sean