differences between DAW program sound quality

[remo]

just wondering if there are big sonic differences between DAW programs like Logic, Nuendo, PT, Cubase, Cakewalk. I'm thinking about this from a strictly "mix-in-the-box" viewpoint. I realise there will be differences on the way in depending on the ADC on the soundcard or standalone ADC used, but I want to know when that file is played back will it sound different coming from different programs?

Also regarding "MITB", do certain programs have superior summing programming than others?

The reason I'm asking this is I'm considering shifting from Logic Audio 5.2 (which is pretty old now) to Nuendo. I'm considering this because;

1. Emagic now = Apple only (I'm a PC guy) ie. no more updates.
2. Nuendo is a current program with continuing development on my platform.
3. I've read good things about Nuendo and it looks like a good choice.
4. Nuendo can run all my VSTi's
5. I don't want to buy a Mac to continue running Logic.

So I'm interested if I can expect and sonic differences (hopefully improvements) when I make the step. Again, I'm not talking about the quality of bundled VST plugs or anything, just the base mix engine of the program.

fyi my setup is based around a Creamware Luna2 card with the 8x8 2496 breakout box.

[loudist]

Although I haven't lived with it much, I've heard good reports about Samplitude's sound.

[Jupiter]

I currently work with Nuendo but i have an eye on SamplitudeV8 ,since Steinberg's Support totally lacks.Also the vsti handling is a bit silly when you are used to work with Logic.You alway need 2 tracks for an Vsti.one midi and one vsti.This gets very complicated when u use many Vsti's.Also the automation is very crappy.Sonically there is no difference between Samplitude and Nuendo.
Ahhh i forgot the Plugins in Nuendo are also not compareable to the one's in Samplitude.I think they have the best built in plugs in the world.Killer compressors ,killer verb...........

Nice greets
Fred

[PaRaNoId]

please someone correct me if i am wrong...But i remember seeing a test someone did between numerous DAW programs. They mixed the same files down at the same levels through different software progs and when comparing them (by flipping one out of phase) found no difference (in the summing) whatsoever. However, if you are more concerned with included plug-in quality, then that's just a matter of personal choice and experience!

[djui5]

http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ul...ubb=forum&f=19

[remo]

thanks. good link (should keep me entertained at work for a good couple of hours )

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by Jupiter
I currently work with Nuendo but i have an eye on SamplitudeV8 ,
Nice greets
Fred

Samplitude 8 (as well as Sequoia 8) is going to seriously kick ass... There are some absolutely huge improvements, both in terms of functionality and sound (not the summing buss but with the internal effects). The good thing is they are also taking their time with beta testing so that the release will be as stable as possible when it hits the streets. While folks may be frustrated because they want the new features, to have stable software is (in my opinion) much more important.

--Ben

[remo]

How does Samplitude stack up as a resource hog? I've stuck with LAP 5.2 for ages because I can get a good track count on it. What kind of beast PC are you guys running Sampliude on? or will my P4 2.26ghz with 1gb RAM do the trick?


How does Samplitude fair on the VSTi side of things?

Is it's automation "friendly"?

I've seen a few threads on "the ultimate PT computer" has anyone seen or know what Samplitude likes to run on? Intel or AMD?


thanks

[heinz]

I use Samp on a 1.8 w/512mb and it's smooth sailing with lots of audio tracks. I don't use a lot of plug-ins though, but have had very few issues with VSTi stuff other than some interface entertainment. DX stuff like Drumagog is great in Samp, and it's native eq & room simulator is outstanding. Automation is... interesting. Wouldn't call it state-of-the-art. Sonics are top-notch.

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by remo
How does Samplitude stack up as a resource hog? I've stuck with LAP 5.2 for ages because I can get a good track count on it. What kind of beast PC are you guys running Sampliude on? or will my P4 2.26ghz with 1gb RAM do the trick?

Great.... I was doing 48 track mixes on my P3-866 years ago. Of course now with things like the real time room simulator, some more kick will help. My setup is a turnkey system from Sequoiadigital.com. I'm running a P4 3.0, 2 GB ram, a Powercore, RAID0 IDE discs... It can take just about anything I throw at it. My 2.4 GHz P4 was also quite powerful, though.

How does Samplitude fair on the VSTi side of things?

Can't answer much here.... Version 7 is decent for MIDI work, but there are going to be massive MIDI upgrades in version 8.

Is it's automation "friendly"?

Depends on whether or not you are willing to "think outside the box" In the traditional sense, the automation is pretty limited. There is VST automation, Fader and Pan automation. There is not Aux Send automation. I do all of my automation, though, through the use of objects in a mix. I'm used to working this way now and I can't look back. To me fader automation in the traditional sense is really clunky and you end up wasting a lot of time in a mix. Anything is possible with object-oriented mixing. I do wish periodically that there was aux send automation, but I can get around it pretty easily through use of additive aux sending in the object editor (set a nominal level and add to it in the aux sends in each object).

I've seen a few threads on "the ultimate PT computer" has anyone seen or know what Samplitude likes to run on? Intel or AMD?

It will work on both, the developers recommend Pentium systems as it has a few optimizations for that processor written into the code. The new Sequoiadigital boxes (which I will get for my next machine) use P4 Extreme chips 2 GB RAM, SATA RAID discs... They are seriously powerful with the ability to record multitrack 24/192 with ease (16 or more tracks at a time without flinching which is an accomplishment for a native box...).

--Ben

[enharmonic]

Ben,

Just wanted to thank you for convincing me with regard to Sequoia. I talked to Jeff at Sequoiadigital, and I'll be going with a turnkey system as well in the near future.

Thanks for the tip

Rob

[fifthcircle]

Glad to hear things will work out... If there is anything I can do to help, please don't hesitate to drop me a line.

--Ben

[arimaka]

Originally posted by remo

5. I don't want to buy a Mac to continue running Logic.

buy a mac... get logic pro

[tonymite]

nuendo compared to all other DAW software is killer hands down - it has a certain anlog neve/tube/odd-order even order /tape saturation/ fairchild, pultec, 1073,api,u47, kind of sound .... the others in my lab tests have only managed to sound behringer ... at best ...

- i think good gain structure 's the key.... and in 24bit land ... .......

[remo]

Originally posted by tonymite
- it has a certain anlog neve/tube/odd-order even order /tape saturation/ fairchild, pultec, 1073,api,u47, kind of sound .... the others in my lab tests have only managed to sound behringer ... at best ...

o...k

I didn't want this thread to go down this road. I was not trying to find the "best" sounding rather just find out if they actually sound "different".

I've been really happy with LAP5.2 but I'm sure there is a better PC based DAW software solution out there. I suppose the most important aspect of the software is its good for composing and working with VSTi's over indepth audio editing features. I've also been checking out Sonar which looks like a good package.

so... out of all the DAW software progs (PT included as its on PC), which one is best for composition (midi, VSTi's, etc)

Originally posted by arimaka
buy a mac... get logic pro

I don't like Logic THAT much... plus I've heared the Mac version of it have quite a few user interface problems that I'd rather aviod (pertaining to the EXS24). And there is the unfortunate omnipotent cash issue.

[arimaka]

Originally posted by remo
o...k

I don't like Logic THAT much... plus I've heared the Mac version of it have quite a few user interface problems that I'd rather aviod (pertaining to the EXS24). And there is the unfortunate omnipotent cash issue.

I believe you have heard wrong...
I have been running logic for the past year and a half in OS X... after using PT since version 4 and working with a bunch of other DAW's (dp, nuendo, cubase)...

I have gone months in sessions without any sort of crash... whether it's recording live musicians and running more than 80 tracks @ at a time... or 20+ sampler's going... it's rock solid, very stable...

the only thing emaple has to do is tweek the GUI and make it have a little more sense, hopefully without losing any of the great features and the great configurability it has...

that's just my 2 cents and I know that PC's can work well... I just don't like the dark side.

[manning1]

i still believe having tried everything on the planet that
magix audio studio and powertracks together at under 100 bucks gives me everything i could ever need. loads of tracks,fx,midi,stability etc etc...why people spend more makes me wonder.

[Kamurah]

Have to agree with the post above....

Been using Logic on a Mac for two years now.....not a single crash that I can remember.

A VERY mature and stable piece of code.

I also have a PC running Cubase SX 2.x and THAT is a different story.

YMMV

Cheers

[enharmonic]

I'd have to say the the "best" for composition IMO would have to be Logic. It's not what I would personally consider the best for audio, and it's interface is uber-clunky for me personally, but it's power in the soft synth/midi dept. cannot be easily denied.

[ttauri]

Regarding summing... I tried a little experiment comparing Logic and Tracktion--can someone tell me if these results are to be expected (and come from a faulty assumption on my part) or whether the programs are indeed doing something different at the summing stage?:

- Took an 8 stem mix, threw it into both Logic and Tracktion and rendered with faders at unity. Result was files that nulled when phase-flipped.

- Took the same 8 stem mix, and lowered the stem volumes by a specific amount in both Logic and Tracktion; rendered, and the files didn't quite null when phase-flipped.

Now, is it entirely normal for specific dB changes away from unity to not maintain exactly the same relationship in different programs? Or is this a case of actual summing differences?

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Exmun]

Originally posted by manning1
i still believe having tried everything on the planet that
magix audio studio and powertracks together at under 100 bucks gives me everything i could ever need. loads of tracks,fx,midi,stability etc etc...why people spend more makes me wonder.

Recording at 24 bits. Doesn't Magix audio studio record at 16 bits only, but can mix 24 bit files recorded elsewhere? I looked into it before moving from Logic 5.x to Samplitude and I recall the Magix guy telling me that. Btw. to me moving from Logic 5.x to Samplitude 7.x, I do notice a slight difference in the sound ... something a bit more open with Samplitude. Maybe it's just me but ...

[Teacher]

For Composition I'd Say Sonar 3..midi is great IMO and the audio is finally starting to catch up with the new release.
I've never used cubase sx but hear its great in that application as well

[manning1]

exmun - i understand thats an earlier version of audio studio your talking about.
current one 2005 records in 32 bit if you check the option if i remember. the limitation is the sound card. if i remember if you dont have a 24 bit sound card capability
the higher bit options dont appear. frankly this whole 24 bit vs 16 bit is marketing imho. of more importance imho is quality convertors. a good lynx sound card recording at 16 bit will sound very good. powertracks definitely records at 24 bit. best 29 bucks on a sequencer i ever spent. but if all your tracks are 24 bits you need a pretty powerfull pc system.
i think people are too hung up on 24 bit.

[Exmun]

Nope Manning... got me confused with someone else. My primary card is a Lynx II card. I've been "over" recording at 16 bits for some 6 years and I'm not planning on going back. But seriously, I talked to the technical guy at Magix when I was considering Samplitude vs. Magix Studio and the tech guy himself told me that Magix Studio (latest version) doesn't record above 16 bits. However, according to him, it would process 24 bit tracks recorded with another program.

According to him, if they put 24 bit recording in that package, there would be little or no reason to buy Samplitude. I just couldn't take that chance so I went for Samp. Either way, I can feel this guy's pain about Logic. They certainly left us PC folks in the lurch when Apple bought them.

[Mike Jasper]

Originally posted by manning1
i still believe having tried everything on the planet that
magix audio studio and powertracks together at under 100 bucks gives me everything i could ever need. loads of tracks,fx,midi,stability etc etc...why people spend more makes me wonder.

I've heard you make a similar quote once before. I don't know, man. It's not like I'm against getting great value for a little bit of money, but sometimes I think you approach pro audio the same way I approach porn.

Whatever works.

Jasper
PS -- That said, I've been trying out the free copy of Tracktion available here and it really does seem like the easiest damn audio program I've ever worked with. I've made some key tests for functionality, and so far so good, but I still have more to test before I report on it. And I will report on it, pros and cons. I hope others report on it too. Cross platform, you know. Out.

[captain54]

Originally posted by Mike Jasper
PS -- That said, I've been trying out the free copy of Tracktion available here and it really does seem like the easiest damn audio program I've ever worked with. I've made some key tests for functionality, and so far so good, but I still have more to test before I report on it. And I will report on it, pros and cons. I hope others report on it too. Cross platform, you know. Out.

I would have to concur that for a free program, Tracktion works amazingly well...Rewire support, vst support, collection of plugs, very simple to navigate, time stretching....

it's not as sleek and pretty as, say, Logic or Pt, but basically you get the same functionality....

loaded in on to my creaky PIII with an Audiowerk card and it runs like a champ...

[jbuntz]

Differences in sound quality are pretty damned similar. Your workflow and stability of the software should be deciding factors over sound quality. You might even find that if a program works better for you, the sound quality will be better than a better summing engine. That said, samplitude and sequoia supposedly sound best.

[OzNimbus]

There's also SawStudio to consider.

[manning1]

to mike jasper. if you doubt the capabilities of powertracks that i use and which is stable as all heck...
heres a user thread. give it a read sometime and try the demo.
with a decent 24 bit capable sound card with good specs,
http://www.pgmusic.com/cgi-bin/Ubb/u...c&f=3&t=002393
the sound quality is superb. just give it a try.
also it has music scoring, and many midi features not found in other packages. the new version will do multi part vocal harmonies and includes a tc helicon feature.
read the specs at the site and be surprised.
merry christmas to all GS folks.

[Architect]

In my experience these DAW's sound very good on the PC Platform:

SawStudio -The Best
Samplitude/Sequoia -Very Good
Nuendo -Good

Haven't played around with Cubase SX, Pro Tools, Logic very much but for the most part if you are recording with good gear and your a good musician/artist/producer etc than you can get good results with all of these programs. But with SawStudio and Samplitude it just seems like you don't have to do much work to get it to sound good.