No Massey Audio Unit plugins

[lovespirals]

one of the reasons that i felt okay to switch from protools to logic was knowing the massey plug ins would be available soon. tapehead is such an essential part of my drum sound that i can't not have it. if all else, i'll have to bounce my drums in logic and import them into protools for tapehead processing and bring that back into logic. pain in the but huh?

i sure hope apple, or someone who really knows AU technology, steps up here. having the massey plug ins in this format would be a blessing for so many people.

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by lovespirals

one of the reasons that i felt okay to switch from protools to logic was knowing the massey plug ins would be available soon. tapehead is such an essential part of my drum sound that i can't not have it. if all else, i'll have to bounce my drums in logic and import them into protools for tapehead processing and bring that back into logic. pain in the but huh?

Ye gods man, you shouldn't have to do that. I'll do an AU soundsalike, blind, before I let people get stuck in a situation like that. That's nuts :D

edit: although I have to say, maybe some platforms just HATE some developers. I am an owner of a M-Audio Profire Lightbridge and I just tried to get PT M-Powered demo to work so I could hear what Massey's stuff sounds like, particularly TapeHead.

It installed PACE Interlok stuff that it's not even gonna use. It installed it _broken_ so that there are messages on bootup, repeated messages about this extension was installed improperly and that program has incorrect security settings. After all this, PT would not work anyway and didn't like any of the disks I showed it. This on a system that happily runs about 30 24-bit 44.1K tracks in Logic 8 without breaking a sweat, a system with 8G of ram. I wasn't going to try to do very much, but it hates me and is on strike.

Fine. Uninstallville. I hope to hell it uninstalls halfdecently, it did that thing where the shutdown dialog is unexpectedly half off the screen out of reach, and it was insane how much I had to give the PT stuff admin permissions. It doesn't trust me even to choose a disk and I'm supposed to trust it?

[mahasandi]

so is there a commensurate thread over at Logic's forum? i dont go there.

I understand if Steve is done with this but, considering schwa and Justin and Steve
are all excellent developers trying to support osx , and finding it ridiculous, for all of us who love their software
this should get out to the right folks at apple.

[bojan_1]

that´s a shame, i was waiting to buy and use them. well, somehow i still hope...

bojan

[KingUgly]

Why do URS and most other 3rd party plugs have no problem with AU? Or do they and they just don't go public with it? I've read about AU problems from other 3rd party developers (was it airwindows or audiodamage? can't recall), so I'm not faulting Massey here. I just want the plugins!

[grimepoch]

I hate to be the dissenter here but my experience with Apple and their developers has been leaps and bounds better than any other company I have dealt with.

1) They give you their development tools for free. Not only that, but TONS of sample code (albeit sometimes broken). Unlike Microsoft where I had to buy Visual C++.

2) The CoreAudio team constantly answers questions on the CoreAudio forum at apple and have solved TONS of problems for me. Likewise, I watch many questions go by that are answered with VERY definitive responses for the most part. I see this on a lot of the development lists, including QuickTimeAPI and JavaDev.

3) You have the option of joining the ADC at different levels and they do have a bug tracking system and they do fix bugs. Obviously they have a lot to do and might not fix your bug.

When was the last time MOTU gave you a copy of Digital Performer with debug flags turned on? I've still yet to hear back from them on doing MAS development and it's been two years!

4) AULab is included with Xcode and allows for additional troubleshooting of problems. I really don't see how Apple hasn't put forth a TREMENDOUS amount of effort to help out people on plugins.

As a business I see no reason why you cannot afford the $500 to pay for a copy of Logic. As a business I had no problem buying a copy when I wanted to test things in it. There are pathways to get your problems fixed, they just aren't all free. AU is a changing standard that is constantly being adapted to the needs of the users that Apple has listened to. For instance, the ability of MIDI generation inside of AUs which was not here before Leopard.

And I will add as well that it's too bad you've given up. I really wanted to try your plugins in DP and Logic because so many people in the ProTools circle have raved about them. As a developer and a user of the AU standard, I am very happy with it.

I'm not saying that you don't have a reason to be upset with the fact bugs are causing something not to work. That said, there are hundreds if not thousands of plugins that run great as an AU, so what you want to do is achievable. I cannot imagine what pain UAD or TC had to go through with their plugs.

[Funk Dracula]

Damn.....

Steve, I'll pay $1000.00 for the bundle!

[clonewar]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

I'd like to utter a giant Simpsonsesque Martin " HAW HAW" that the apple koolaid everyone has been trying to get us to drink and that air of superiority and can do no wrongism has come home to roost

unfortunately, this just sucks all around, but, no big surprise

Life getting boring on planet reaper? Too much excitement about being able to copy and paste midi notes??

I wonder if you guys realize how many people wouldn't even pay $10 for reaper exactly because of posts like yours.

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by clonewar

Life getting boring on planet reaper? Too much excitement about being able to copy and paste midi notes??

I wonder if you guys realize how many people wouldn't even pay $10 for reaper exactly because of posts like yours.

Dude,

Pipelineaudio and Cockos are two different things if I´m not mistaken.
Reaper is an EXCELENT upcoming DAW.

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by jeronimo

Dude,

Pipelineaudio and Cockos are two different things if I´m not mistaken.
Reaper is an EXCELENT upcoming DAW.

Upcoming DAW, or "up and coming" DAW? I don't think it's really "upcoming", is it? It actually exists now. Sorry, my parents were english majors.

[Orren]

Originally Posted by KernelG

That's the real disappointment here. It seems like conclusions were reached before asking anyone else for advice or assistance. And then to post that image of TapeHead running in Logic 8. Why? C'mon now.

I agree with you Glenn.

Mr. Massey posted a total of twice on the coreaudio-api list (which is far from "secret" BTW, its one of the resources listed on the Apple Developer's site for audio at Audio ), and that's it. He did get answers, BTW, but I guess they weren't what he wanted. For someone who is so frustrated that he's going to give up, two posts—a question and a response to the answer...I guess I would have expected a few more questions.

Apple does have official 3rd party developer AU support, and obviously there are a fair number of AUs out there. The shame is that Mr. Massey never found a way to hook up with it.

To me, this episode says that Apple needs to work harder to make sure that 3rd party developers understand exactly what support is out there, and how to get at it. I say this statement in general, BTW—clearly Mr. Massey threw in the towel for his own reasons as well as Apple's failures, considering how many other AUs are developed successfully.

Orren

[Orren]

Originally Posted by KingUgly

Why do URS and most other 3rd party plugs have no problem with AU?

There are a number of mailing lists for developers of audio units—the coreaudio-api list I mention above, a list for AUVal in specific, a list for logic-au issues in specific. Apple GmbH also has a developer in charge of 3rd party support, who not only gives his email and address to developers, but phone number as well.

The developer who does the URS ports is on those lists, and has spoken with the Logic 3rd party support developer as well. I happen to know the developer in question, which is why I can state that with authority. I'm going to make an educated guess that the other 3rd party developers also take advantage of those same resources.

Its pretty clear that Mr. Massey is upset about how difficult he found getting support, and it sounds like he never did end up talking with the Logic team directly. Obviously, Apple needs to do a better job of getting that information out there, hands down.

But do you realize that if he had simply posted on the coreaudio-api mailing list (of which Massey was a member and did post twice) asking "hey, how do I talk to someone at Apple regarding Logic or audio unit support?" he would have gotten dozens of emails of who and how to contact and if he left a phone number, probably a personal call from Germany?

Not to excuse Apple, but why didn't he do that?

Orren

[clonewar]

Originally Posted by jeronimo

Dude,

Pipelineaudio and Cockos are two different things if I´m not mistaken.

I know... pipeline is one of the REpavangelists that love to clutter threads with completely off topic and incendiary remarks.

Originally Posted by jeronimo

Reaper is an EXCELENT upcoming DAW.

Not (yet) if you work primarily with midi.

[mobilemozart]

Here's another Logic-User who was planning to get a few of the Massey Plug-Ins (Compressor and Limiter were on my list). Now my next plug-in is gonna be the URS Channel Strip Pro.

It would have been a great step for Massey Plug-Ins to offer AU-plugins...

[altoidboy]

+1 on grimepoch's post. i too hate to be the dissenter, but let me point out:

1) apple has active developer mailing lists for both coreaudio and audiounit development.

2) steve almost whines about the bugginess, but this is not borne out in practice: there are hundreds of successful audiounits out there that run perfectly well. this problem is HIS inexperience as a coder, not apple's obtuseness.

3) steve seems sore about not getting a copy of logic for free. part of me understands that, and the other part of me thinks he must not understand the cost of doing business. he paid for his mac and didn't expect to get it for free, didn't he? that was the cost of becoming a mac programmer. buying logic is, by the same logic (no pun intended) also a necessary cost of business.

4) hobnob enough at namm or musikmesse and you WILL find the person who can hook you up. :-) steve just didn't luck out and talked to the wrong people.

sorry, i'm coming down on the other side of this argument. while apple is a closed and secretive company, there's too many successful developers out there for me to buy his argument that apple's platform isn't at least decent and that there aren't ways to get things done. steve is whining over his frustrations, but other people in the same industry have overcome them, and i wish he would too.

Originally Posted by grimepoch

I hate to be the dissenter here but my experience with Apple and their developers has been leaps and bounds better than any other company I have dealt with.

1) They give you their development tools for free. Not only that, but TONS of sample code (albeit sometimes broken). Unlike Microsoft where I had to buy Visual C++.

2) The CoreAudio team constantly answers questions on the CoreAudio forum at apple and have solved TONS of problems for me. Likewise, I watch many questions go by that are answered with VERY definitive responses for the most part. I see this on a lot of the development lists, including QuickTimeAPI and JavaDev.

3) You have the option of joining the ADC at different levels and they do have a bug tracking system and they do fix bugs. Obviously they have a lot to do and might not fix your bug.

When was the last time MOTU gave you a copy of Digital Performer with debug flags turned on? I've still yet to hear back from them on doing MAS development and it's been two years!

4) AULab is included with Xcode and allows for additional troubleshooting of problems. I really don't see how Apple hasn't put forth a TREMENDOUS amount of effort to help out people on plugins.

As a business I see no reason why you cannot afford the $500 to pay for a copy of Logic. As a business I had no problem buying a copy when I wanted to test things in it. There are pathways to get your problems fixed, they just aren't all free. AU is a changing standard that is constantly being adapted to the needs of the users that Apple has listened to. For instance, the ability of MIDI generation inside of AUs which was not here before Leopard.

And I will add as well that it's too bad you've given up. I really wanted to try your plugins in DP and Logic because so many people in the ProTools circle have raved about them. As a developer and a user of the AU standard, I am very happy with it.

I'm not saying that you don't have a reason to be upset with the fact bugs are causing something not to work. That said, there are hundreds if not thousands of plugins that run great as an AU, so what you want to do is achievable. I cannot imagine what pain UAD or TC had to go through with their plugs.

[E-Tron]

Hey all.
There was a discussion about this on apple's logic forum. One was removed, the second one, which I started last night, was also removed.

So I joined gearslutz!

I'm just sad becuase I wanted to people over there to understand the gravity of this situation and also, according the robot-email I got, the posting was non-techincal related... I was only attempting to have a NPR-style discussion about the company's conduct. Oh well, I move on.

I'm just frustrated right now how Apple can on one hand make an amazing system as Logic + Native Core Audio - and on the other make no public recognition to users' and developers' woes.

Anyway.
Glad to be here!

[juniorhifikit]

Steve,

Does this mean you'll have more time to work on that de-esser?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by altoidboy

2) steve almost whines about the bugginess, but this is not borne out in practice: there are hundreds of successful audiounits out there that run perfectly well. this problem is HIS inexperience as a coder, not apple's obtuseness.

You know, I say cut the man some slack. After all you logic guys whining about wanting AU Massey plugs, he takes it on because he felt he could make some MONEY on the enterprise. After 3 months - FOR WHATEVER REASON - he figures out that he CAN'T make money.

So where's the problem in that. I want GMC to make a full size truck that gets 35mpg in town. They could do it, but they can't make money doing it - so they don't.

He had the decency to come on here and explain. And then dozens of posts second guessing and blasting him. You guys need to get a life or switch over to PT.

Let the man be.


bp

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Upcoming DAW, or "up and coming" DAW? I don't think it's really "upcoming", is it? It actually exists now. Sorry, my parents were english majors.

No problem with me, as you can see, English is not my 1st language. So, please, forgive my mistakes

But my point is Reaper it´s only at .071 for mac, so, still not "there" for anything.

Originally Posted by clonewar

I know... pipeline is one of the REpavangelists that love to clutter threads with completely off topic and incendiary remarks.

Not (yet) if you work primarily with midi.

Yes, I´ve read a lot of pipeline´s posts, some are ok, some really sux, like the one on this thread.

If you work on a PC, Reaper is a great app for audio (what I do 99% of the time), I really can´t comment about MIDI.

If you´re on a mac, Reaper has everything to be a great DAW for my kind of work.

Nevermind, let´s get back on topic!

[globalhiccup]

Whatever the outcome of the Massey/Apple affair, I would like to use this opportunity to give Steve a huge thank you for all the hard work and generosity which has enabled people without a huge budget to get their hands on BRILLIANT high-end plugins!

[santibanks]

Originally Posted by grimepoch

I hate to be the dissenter here but my experience with Apple and their developers has been leaps and bounds better than any other company I have dealt with.

1) They give you their development tools for free. Not only that, but TONS of sample code (albeit sometimes broken). Unlike Microsoft where I had to buy Visual C++.

2) The CoreAudio team constantly answers questions on the CoreAudio forum at apple and have solved TONS of problems for me. Likewise, I watch many questions go by that are answered with VERY definitive responses for the most part. I see this on a lot of the development lists, including QuickTimeAPI and JavaDev.

3) You have the option of joining the ADC at different levels and they do have a bug tracking system and they do fix bugs. Obviously they have a lot to do and might not fix your bug.

When was the last time MOTU gave you a copy of Digital Performer with debug flags turned on? I've still yet to hear back from them on doing MAS development and it's been two years!

4) AULab is included with Xcode and allows for additional troubleshooting of problems. I really don't see how Apple hasn't put forth a TREMENDOUS amount of effort to help out people on plugins.

As a business I see no reason why you cannot afford the $500 to pay for a copy of Logic. As a business I had no problem buying a copy when I wanted to test things in it. There are pathways to get your problems fixed, they just aren't all free. AU is a changing standard that is constantly being adapted to the needs of the users that Apple has listened to. For instance, the ability of MIDI generation inside of AUs which was not here before Leopard.

And I will add as well that it's too bad you've given up. I really wanted to try your plugins in DP and Logic because so many people in the ProTools circle have raved about them. As a developer and a user of the AU standard, I am very happy with it.

I'm not saying that you don't have a reason to be upset with the fact bugs are causing something not to work. That said, there are hundreds if not thousands of plugins that run great as an AU, so what you want to do is achievable. I cannot imagine what pain UAD or TC had to go through with their plugs.

Maybe besides a "broken" SDK, I don't see much problems to be honest. A $499 investment in a piece of software (hey the developer application stuff is al free !) isn;t much if you are going to genrate good sales out of your products, which Im sure you will.

Also, if you think logic 8 studio is just a bit too expensive, why not getting the logic express? Engine is the same but some features are scaled down (which I don't concider that important for development. A few more tracks and buses don't seem important for the working of a plugin aswell as a sh*t load of extra apple loops and utilities) so I guess it works well enough to test your plugins.
Besides that, there is always digital performer, there are free Audio unit hosts including Aulab (which is included in the Xcode tools series like already pointed out) and much people who will just love to become a betatester and even help test you everything to the limits (maybe even on better ways you could do yourself like with logic nodes, extreme projects and demands, with pro tools hardware etc. )

Really, there is a better suiting solution for every problem.

[piotr]

He had the decency to come on here and explain. And then dozens of posts second guessing and blasting him. You guys need to get a life or switch over to PT.

Let the man be.

I must second this sentiment.
Mr. Massey truly owes nothing to any one of us. If anything: those of us who do use his plugins probably owe him, as the price we paid is symbolic. He did not have to post here (or anywhere) with any kind of explanation of his decision. But he did, which from my perspective, once again, shows that he does run his project differently from the software behemoths (do you se Waves posting here and reasoning/discussing their business decisions with you?)... So for people to lash out on him seems just petty and rude.
Just my thoughts.
p.

And, to Mr. Massey:
Thank you for your work.

[GCL]

AES and NAMM are not the places you should go to make connections with Apple. Conventions exhibitors are too busy selling; they don't have time to talk to you about your projects. And asking for a free copy of Logic probably did not do him any favors in the being-taken-seriously dept.

There are many companies making audiounit software right now; it's disappointing to me the he let these things discourage him and simply quit.

[JPeters86]

It's a shame that Apple isn't more helpful to extremely creative people like Steve Massey. Too bad

[sound and form]

Originally Posted by GCL

AES and NAMM are not the places you should go to make connections with Apple. Conventions exhibitors are too busy selling; they don't have time to talk to you about your projects. And asking for a free copy of Logic probably did not do him any favors in the being-taken-seriously dept.

There are many companies making audiounit software right now; it's disappointing to me the he let these things discourage him and simply quit.

Like most of the speculations being made online, these assertions about me pestering the Apple folks for free copies of Logic are incorrect. Please re-read my original statement more carefully.

If anyone would like to discuss this issue personally and more genuinely, please feel free to contact me on my home phone line: +1-415-401-8129.

Thanks,
Steven Massey
Massey Plugins Inc.

[peeder]

If Apple censored the discussion of this issue from their own forum, but did not contact Mr Massey (as appears to be the case, since he posted again without saying things had been addressed) then that is, in sum, pretty outright hostile behavior from Apple to both its users and developers.

Corporations are groups of individuals, and the individual in charge of the web forum is not the individual in charge of developer relations or the AU SDK or debugging Logic (and those are usually four different people). Even so, they all are intended to be united under one common brand identity...and in Apple's case, Apple is supposed to be a "friendly" company (even though its CEO is anything but).

Apple, collectively, is violating its own brand identity here...

Even though that's nearly besides the point. Apple has created a "lose-lose-lose" situation out of what most definitely could have been "win-win-win" for the three parties.

[GSF]

Yes, this is the point.

It's been really annoying to read some of the reactions on here, almost implying that this is a character issue on Mr. Massey's part.

The tradedy in this, is not of Apple's arrogance or Massey's exasperation; rather it the loss to the audio community of what was a brilliant opportunity. And I'm sorry to say, that as a competitive company that prides itself on innovation, the lion's share of responsibility here still falls on Apple. Because this loss has come with such indifference on their end, it makes me realize that this arrogance is actually putting them out of touch with other innovators, and ultimately their own consumers.

Sad, really, because I've been a staunch Apple supporter for over 20 years.

[mahasandi]

One thing is for sure, everyone here should email apple with their concerns around this issue, perhaps someone has a good list of contacts they would like to share so we can get
our concerns to a good amount of apple folks?
at least i would like to think they are not immune to customer feedback.

the issue here is that the au sdk is not functioning and developers we support are
not developing for the platform.
which in turn makes apple less then ideal for audio if its knowingly or unknowingly
discouraging good development for osx.

[pounce]

i would still want to buy the complete bundle for my AU apps, still primarily DP and Peak.

and if it's not too late, this thread in and of itself is revealing enough contacts and info to get the job done. (or porting to AU)

[KevinS]

Originally Posted by GSF

The tragedy in this, is not of Apple's arrogance or Massey's exasperation; rather it the loss to the audio community of what was a brilliant opportunity.

Amen!!!