No Massey Audio Unit plugins

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by panda21

I think part of the problem is that apple arent afraid to add huge changes to the os and its api's at quite a fast pace. The documentation, whilst it seems quite comprehensive at first, can be a bit sketchy and incoherent, and doesnt always keep up with whats going on under the bonnet.

Possibly subscribing to the adc would help get more help, but i'm not sure.

I do really like the fact that the apple development tools are all free though, if you were developing for windows you would most likely need to buy some overpriced bloated microsoft visual studio junk that will bring you more pain than you can possibly imagine.

Actually, MS has a full suite of free development tools in languages from C++ to C# to the dreaded VB. They even have a free personal version of MS SQL Server and a bunch of database tools. They don't have all the features of the pro suites, of course, but if you don't need a bunch of hand-holding or specialized enterprise tools, it'a great deal for free. I was very pleasantly surprised by the previous version -- at a time when I barely had a single charitable thought about MS.

[ivangough]

Maybe I'm dreaming but with all the stink around the pro audio forums about this, perhaps someone else will get involved here and help Steve get the plugs up and running. Like another plugin software developer.. Wink Wink..

Probably dreaming though.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Actually, MS has a full suite of free development tools in languages from C++ to C# to the dreaded VB. They even have a free personal version of MS SQL Server and a bunch of database tools. They don't have all the features of the pro suites, of course, but if you don't need a bunch of hand-holding or specialized enterprise tools, it'a great deal for free. I was very pleasantly surprised by the previous version -- at a time when I barely had a single charitable thought about MS.

And I don't want to appear as bragging or anything, but I get calls from M$ offering me 5 licenses of MSDN Universal (all M$ systems, software, tools, debug builds, etc.) for $399...that's a what...$15000 value? The $399 is just so I have a little skin in it...

If I'm a DAW vendor, Steve Massey is on my "A list", no question about it. A DAW is largely a holder of plugins, and getting people to switch without their favorite plugins available is very tough...

And sadly I don't develop audio software any more otherwise sure I'd drive over to the next neighborhood and go help Mr. Massey out. Although I don't think he would need my help...I think this is a problem in the API or the host. That said, people have gotten plugins to run in Logic 8...so someone out there could probably be of assistance!

[Mike O]

Lack of developer support has been a complaint of software developers (about Apple) for 20 years. This has been a direct contribution to MS dominance as people like Mr. Massey HAVE to go where they can get what they need to provide a product they can sell to consumers that want to buy.

Hopefully St.Steve will see the light someday.

[pipelineaudio]

I'd like to utter a giant Simpsonsesque Martin " HAW HAW" that the apple koolaid everyone has been trying to get us to drink and that air of superiority and can do no wrongism has come home to roost

unfortunately, this just sucks all around, but, no big surprise

[schwa]

Here's my 2c.

VST sucks as we all know. It's a bad spec, and there isn't any "support" of any kind (it's hard to even type that without snickering), etc. The VST SDK is absurd, it's just an empty class containing function stubs that get called by the VST dispatcher function, the SDK itself adds zero functionality or flexibility beyond just dressing up the dispatcher opcode in slightly different clothing.

But! VST is very basic and easy to follow. You can write your own framework around the VST headers (there are dozens of such frameworks out there and some are quite good). There's never more than one layer of VST crud itself so you can debug stuff without needing to keep an infinite stack trace in your head.

The AU SDK is completely different. It's very highly designed and opaque. The overall design of the thing is much more carefully thought out than VST, the SDK is a bunch of actual encapsulations that give us a small number of fairly well defined places where we enter it. But because of the opacity and complexity, the SDK contains dozens of files and hundreds of functions and templates and multiply inherited methods, control can bounce around and back and forth and it is extremely hard to debug the SDK itself without maintaining a huge context in your head.

In giving us this SDK, Apple is saying, "trust us." There's nothing wrong with complexity a priori, but if Apple is going to give us this opaque turnkey SDK, it really needs to work *perfectly*.

It doesn't.

[jeangodard]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

I'd like to utter a giant Simpsonsesque Martin " HAW HAW" that the apple koolaid everyone has been trying to get us to drink and that air of superiority and can do no wrongism has come home to roost

OK genius. 1) There are hundreds of fine AU plug-ins out there; 2) I personally don't care what koolaid you drink; 3) I've got a Pro Tools rig on a Mac and can use the Massey plug-ins, no problem; 4) I just want to run them in Logic.

Lastly, ya got no class.

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by drycounty

\
I can't believe you actually raised a stink about the price of the software and inability to get a copy for free. Any developer worth their own weight doesn't concern themselves over the cost of the software they are developing for. You want to develop for the platform? Pay for the software.

Yeah, gotta go with Peeder here. That's crazy talk. People in the biz don't pay other people in the biz for software.

[KevinS]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Actually, MS has a full suite of free development tools in languages from C++ to C# to the dreaded VB. They even have a free personal version of MS SQL Server and a bunch of database tools. They don't have all the features of the pro suites, of course, but if you don't need a bunch of hand-holding or specialized enterprise tools, it'a great deal for free. I was very pleasantly surprised by the previous version -- at a time when I barely had a single charitable thought about MS.

I think this was their answer to the whole PHP/MySql thing.............

[drycounty]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Yeah, gotta go with Peeder here. That's crazy talk. People in the biz don't pay other people in the biz for software.

By joining ADC a lot of his problems would be solved. The rest of his argument, this software thing included, just comes across as posturing and petty. I'm sorry, but Apple is really not to blame here. They keep strict controls on their OS and apps for a reason. They don't want things reverse engineered, corrupted and lifted and ported to god knows how many other platforms.

But back to your argument -- so let's call me a "developer". I've never coded for Apple before. I don't join the Apple Developers Connection but I demand free software. In fact, all my life I've worked on a PC so could I be outfitted with a Mac Pro as well?

Free software is a nice perk, but you know what? It's PETTY compared to the big picture. It's petty to think that any other developer (Digi, UA, etc) would raise a stink because they didn't get free software packages.

Ack. Enough of this argument. I'm out, feel free to flame away.

[drycounty]

Originally Posted by KevinS

I think this was their answer to the whole PHP/MySql thing.............

...it was. Same thing with them suddenly releasing Virtual PC for free once they see VMWare's market share climbing.

[computa]

Originally Posted by lovespirals

this is scary because i, like many others, left protools because of dissatisfaction with digidesign's products. apple now has a superior product but it's looking like this may soon be threatened by their own indifference to pro audio. i can't imagine where this is going; will i have to switch back to protools again in a few years?

this is one of the reasons I never fell over completely from PT HD to logic. Apple makes the majority of it's money selling ipods & mp3 downloads. They basically gave away logic 8 for free with no copy protection. Logic is the low man on the totem pole in a company that really doesnt deal with pro audio.

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by schwa

Here's my 2c.

VST sucks as we all know. It's a bad spec, and there isn't any "support" of any kind (it's hard to even type that without snickering), etc. The VST SDK is absurd, it's just an empty class containing function stubs that get called by the VST dispatcher function, the SDK itself adds zero functionality or flexibility beyond just dressing up the dispatcher opcode in slightly different clothing.

But! VST is very basic and easy to follow. You can write your own framework around the VST headers (there are dozens of such frameworks out there and some are quite good). There's never more than one layer of VST crud itself so you can debug stuff without needing to keep an infinite stack trace in your head.

The AU SDK is completely different. It's very highly designed and opaque. The overall design of the thing is much more carefully thought out than VST, the SDK is a bunch of actual encapsulations that give us a small number of fairly well defined places where we enter it. But because of the opacity and complexity, the SDK contains dozens of files and hundreds of functions and templates and multiply inherited methods, control can bounce around and back and forth and it is extremely hard to debug the SDK itself without maintaining a huge context in your head.

In giving us this SDK, Apple is saying, "trust us." There's nothing wrong with complexity a priori, but if Apple is going to give us this opaque turnkey SDK, it really needs to work *perfectly*.

It doesn't.

Wow, I didn't understand one word of that.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by JPZ

Wow, I didn't understand one word of that.

Translation: Steinberg offers a buffet table that lets you pick and choose the things that are edible to put on your plate, but you have to not only get up and serve yourself, you have to wash your own dishes, which some people have come out with dish brushes and things to help with.

Apple gives you waitress service and you never see the kitchen, but the smiling waitress serves you lentils full of pebbles that break your teeth, and all the things you told her you were allergic to, and doesn't come back to the table other than to give you the bill.

[r.staettler]

ok, just one more from here: i definately would have bought the massey AUs

and although i really enjoy working with logic pro 8 i wonder why the apple/emagic/logic guys dont seem to understand the importance of 3rd party plug ins....

[Sky]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I agree. Time to embrace VST. THere are lots of us that have been on the outside looking in on this little exclusive club that are prepared to support them

I just joined the MUSE Receptor camp for this reason. It's a pretty elegant Linux / WINE solution. Mine came preconfigured with Komplete 5 and powered right up in its own window on the Mac LCD with included VNC client software. Receptor sends 8 audio tracks to the 003R via lightpipe and uses dark S/PDIF for clock. There's also a DI on the front panel which is great for plugging a guitar into Guitar Rig 3.

PTLE sessions on the Mac are lighter and more stable, and now I'm free to run whatever DAW version or platform I choose without affecting the VI configuration. So far, so good in this brave new world. Sky

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by r.staettler

ok, just one more from here: i definately would have bought the massey AUs

and although i really enjoy working with logic pro 8 i wonder why the apple/emagic/logic guys dont seem to understand the importance of 3rd party plug ins....

First and foremost I like most was looking forward to the Massey plugs, i feel sorry for the current situation Steve has had to endure, hope it changes in the future and we still get the AU versions which would also be great for Massey plug-ins, but to say that Apple/Logic do not care about 3rd party plugs is just not right, considering all the plugs bar afew companies (which are TDM/Rtas only) at this stage carry AU versions of their plugs ...

[panda21]

Originally Posted by schwa

The AU SDK is completely different. It's very highly designed and opaque. The overall design of the thing is much more carefully thought out than VST, the SDK is a bunch of actual encapsulations that give us a small number of fairly well defined places where we enter it. But because of the opacity and complexity, the SDK contains dozens of files and hundreds of functions and templates and multiply inherited methods, control can bounce around and back and forth and it is extremely hard to debug the SDK itself without maintaining a huge context in your head.

By SDK are you talking about the audiounit base classes that come as part of the examples in the developer tools, that are used in the example plugin?

I always treat things like that which come as examples as just that.. but if the example doesnt work properly thats not so great!

As far as I know there isnt anything stopping you from implementing a bare bones audiounit in a similar style you would a vst using the functions described here:

Core Audio: Reference

what steve described does sound incredibly frustrating though, i can see why apple might want to keep their software close the their chests but i think thats misguided in this case.

i think logic is more the exception than the rule though, i've never had any problems developing on OS X, and perhaps apple don't realise how crucial big name third party plugin support is, which probably isnt the case with any of their other software.

i always got the impression emagic were quite unfriendly to third party developers too though. to me it seemed they didnt really care about people using plugins other than their own.. it took them forever to support multiple out vsts properly.

[JPeters86]

Seeing Tape Head in Logic makes me want to cry... I will probably never be able to use it :(

[joris de man]

Originally Posted by drycounty

By joining ADC a lot of his problems would be solved. The rest of his argument, this software thing included, just comes across as posturing and petty. I'm sorry, but Apple is really not to blame here. They keep strict controls on their OS and apps for a reason. They don't want things reverse engineered, corrupted and lifted and ported to god knows how many other platforms.

But back to your argument -- so let's call me a "developer". I've never coded for Apple before. I don't join the Apple Developers Connection but I demand free software. In fact, all my life I've worked on a PC so could I be outfitted with a Mac Pro as well?

Free software is a nice perk, but you know what? It's PETTY compared to the big picture. It's petty to think that any other developer (Digi, UA, etc) would raise a stink because they didn't get free software packages.

Ack. Enough of this argument. I'm out, feel free to flame away.

It doesn't seem what Steve was requesting is strange or extraordinary; what he requested was an environment to test his plug-in properly. It wasn't like he was asking for Logic's source code, for crying out loud.
Discounts for developer's aren't unusual at all, and if you do have to buy into a developer program, it usually means a level of support that goes beyond the 'here is the SDK, now go figure it out on yer own'.
And I recall him asking for a discounted version of Logic, not a Mac Pro.

Let's compare Apple's stand to MS in this case. If I want to develop for VST, I can download a free VST sdk from Steinberg, go to MS's site and download full versions of C++ or C# (Visual Studio 2008 Express Edition Products)
I've now got most of the tools I need to create VST plug-ins and so far it hasn't cost me a single dime.

Next to that, Steve is a single independent developer, not a company like Digi or UA.
UA for example also has a hardware division that does very well, and I wouldn't be surprised that when they started their digital division the R&D period for the UA card and plug-ins was funded by the hardware division.
Digi is owned by Avid, a multi-million dollar enterprise....hardly a fair comparison.
Also, he sells his plug-ins for extremely fair prices; the average price is 70 dollars, which is perhaps a 4th of what other companies sell their plug-ins for.

I simple see a single developer that has been burned by inadequate and buggy tools and non-support of a company that he in turn is trying to advocate through the plug-ins he's trying to port.
That is a very sad state of affairs, and it is discouraging to see how some people react to that.

Joe

[panda21]

Originally Posted by joris de man

Let's compare Apple's stand to MS in this case. If I want to develop for VST, I can download a free VST sdk from Steinberg, go to MS's site and download full versions of C++ or C# (Visual Studio 2008 Express Edition Products)
I've now got most of the tools I need to create VST plug-ins and so far it hasn't cost me a single dime.

i agree with the rest of what you say but i don't think thats exactly fair. vst has nothing to do with MS, and the apple audio unit sdk is comparable to the vst sdk. the problem seems to be with logic.

i'd be interested to know what exactly the bug is and if the audio units work in something like ableton live on mac. i'd still buy them even if there was no support so long as the bugs werent completely crippling.

oh and i just noticed this thread:
Apple is listening - Logic 8 bugs

so heres hoping!

[Albert]

Steve, porting to AU means a lot more than porting to Logic. If you feel that you are dealing with a Logic bug then you should at least find out if your ports work on other platforms like DP, Cubase or Live, if you haven't already. It seems like you are a bit locked into Logic, and there are far more people using software other than Logic than who are using Logic.

If you haven't beta tested your ports on DP, you should, if only to see whether the bugs are indeed Logic specific. I use the latest version of DP and have been a beta tester (software and hardware) before--I can write up a pretty decent bug report. So if I can help out, please don't hesitate to contact me.

[ipressrecord]

Originally Posted by Albert

Steve, porting to AU means a lot more than porting to Logic. If you feel that you are dealing with a Logic bug then you should at least find out if your ports work on other platforms like DP, Cubase or Live, if you haven't already. It seems like you are a bit locked into Logic, and there are far more people using software other than Logic than who are using Logic.

If you haven't beta tested your ports on DP, you should, if only to see whether the bugs are indeed Logic specific. I use the latest version of DP and have been a beta tester (software and hardware) before--I can write up a pretty decent bug report. So if I can help out, please don't hesitate to contact me.

+1

I have DP, Live, Soundtrack Pro, and Peak LE. Let me know if you have any interest in beta-testing outside of Logic. I'd be happy to pitch in.

Jeff

[emgbiotch]

Originally Posted by Albert

Steve, porting to AU means a lot more than porting to Logic. If you feel that you are dealing with a Logic bug then you should at least find out if your ports work on other platforms like DP, Cubase or Live, if you haven't already. It seems like you are a bit locked into Logic, and there are far more people using software other than Logic than who are using Logic.

If you haven't beta tested your ports on DP, you should, if only to see whether the bugs are indeed Logic specific. I use the latest version of DP and have been a beta tester (software and hardware) before--I can write up a pretty decent bug report. So if I can help out, please don't hesitate to contact me.

+2

lately I have been using ableton live 7 wayyy more than logic.
havent even bought the new logic 8 yet, and i really dont plan on it.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by KevinS

I think this was their answer to the whole PHP/MySql thing.............

I suspect it was more about continuing to try to make themselves less of a regulatory target as well as continuing to make what appear to be friendly gestures (or at least a friendly wave) at the Open Source community as well as helping to assure that Windows would continue to be well-supported by a range of affordable development tools. And what's more affordable than free? Making them free, additionally, helps lighten the onerous burden of support, as well, which is always one of the biggest expenses of any software release.

Whatever, I like free stuff as much or more than the next guy and I was delighted that this stuff not only worked but that MS had improved at least some of their support materials considerably since the last time I dipped my toe in the MSDN waters (and that was for paid-for tools).

But I don't, for an instant, think MS gave us this stuff for anything other than strategic ends, don't get me wrong.

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by ivangough

Maybe I'm dreaming but with all the stink around the pro audio forums about this, perhaps someone else will get involved here and help Steve get the plugs up and running. Like another plugin software developer.. Wink Wink..

Steve's never talked to me- I'm probably too small to be on HIS radar.

All I can do is tell him what bits _I_ had to fix to get something to compile- he might well be going to places (like with GUIs) that I don't actually use as part of my concept. Even there I know some stuff but it's not happy happy joy joy either.

I had to hunt down and include CAVectorUnit .ccp and .h myself even to compile at all, the examples need them but the project doesn't contain them. I edited my template to include that stuff or I'd go crazy trying to keep track of it all each time. I strongly recommend working from templates with AUs where you've already tracked down and fixed the bugs.

If he's trying to build universal binary there's nothing there to tell him that in the compiler, Other_Rez_Flags has to say -I /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Frameworks/CarbonCore.framework/Versions/A/Headers -I /Developer/Examples/CoreAudio/AudioUnits/AUPublic/AUBase -d ppc_$ppc -d i386_$i386 and everything after the -d flag I had to grovel through coreaudio lists to find.

Lastly, 'reset' doesn't actually reset the AU- Sophia Poirier of DestroyFX is my AU deity and gave me this code-

ComponentResult Logical::Initialize()
{
ComponentResult result = AUEffectBase::Initialize();
if (result == noErr)
Reset(kAudioUnitScope_Global, 0);
return result;
}

...which makes the 'reset' code in the template actually DO something consistently. I assumed it would do what it did, but particularly on some platforms like Digital Performer, the host doesn't call that. 'initialize' is not in the example code either.

I don't know if it's too late, and I'm not the ultimate authority on how AUs work, though I've released more than 50 working AU products and been able to support them. But I'm happy to help Massey out in any way I can, I've just explained the fixes for the three biggest trainwrecks _I_ hit, and I know where to go for further trainwrecks. Hint- not Apple, exactly- at any rate the people on the CoreAudio list are often busy building more iPhones and such. But searching the ARCHIVES of that list often hits paydirt, and that can be done here-

Coreaudio-api Info Page

If there's anything I else I can do consider it done. Right now I'm actively trying to help a guy on Gearslutz learn to code VST and teaching him some of my tricks so there can be VST plugs that are something like mine- if all else fails with a bit of test-tone experimentation I can do plugs myself that are SOMETHING like Massey's, and he won't have to touch AU. It seems we specialize, and maybe that's okay.

Oh, and with the GUIs, you're told you want to use Cocoa frameworks but most of the hosts outside of Logic still only work with Carbon, so the cake is a lie ;)

The cake IS a lie. But that should stay our problem, not become our users' problem. There were people who knew how to solve any problem he ran into. And his observations on Apple moving goalposts and the risks you run, especially with Jobs leading the company, are spot-on. Ask any OpenDoc developer. Massey is entitled to not want to play if it makes him feel too powerless.

[KernelG]

Originally Posted by chrisj

I don't know if it's too late...

That's the real disappointment here. It seems like conclusions were reached before asking anyone else for advice or assistance. And then to post that image of TapeHead running in Logic 8. Why? C'mon now.

[dannygold]

Yeah, I'm particularly sad about tape head. I tried DUY tape and decided that tape head set to 5ms delay, not feedback (and then shift back the track 5ms) was a better and much cheaper tape emulator. With a free echo built in by the way. I tested in PTLE but use DP much more so I'll miss the AU plugin. Steven... any hope?

[Dr Gruv]

i'm quadrupple posting... on different forums

anyhow...

trying to help here...

so that the end users can leave feedback at logic on apple...

1) what is missing? what do developers need to port their stuff over to au? how can we encourage apple to take action?

2) what help can be given to developers?

3) other - what am I missing or not see the whole picture...?

just like to see it easier for you guys (programmers) and if the end users can help... i'm sure many would ;)

[Lownotes]

Originally Posted by Gladstone

I personally would love to see these plugins in VST, more DAW's support that format I believe. I'm sorry AU didn't work out though. :(

I second this.