Apple is listening - Logic 8 bugs

[Nordkrog]

Hi!

There has been - no, there is - a lot of frustration about being Logic user after Apple bought the app. Emagic used to be very open and direct in their contact with their users, but as we all know, Apple DO NOT communicate directly with their users, and they rarely admit they made mistakes or have buggy software.

But from my favourite gear supporter, I know that Apple's actually listening to us. The supporter has a direct connection to the chief Logic developper, and he knows that Logic is carefully monitoring GS (and other forums).

I instantly upgraded to Logic 8 as soon as it was out, and after working with it for a month, I reported all the bugs and dislikes I came across to my supporter who sent it of directly to the developper. I also know of a few other "power-users" that sent of reports, and it do seem to help. The 8.0.1 has fixed the main issues (the takelist going nuts-thing).

So don't expect get any information from Apple, but keep on reporting bugs. Here, at the Logic forum on apple.com and - maybe the most efficient - report to your local Logic-dealer (I can't remember what Apple call them... something like "Apple Audio Solution Expert" or the like...)

[Rufuss Sewell]

Well you knew that when they let you hide the transport and brought back the "copy audio config" option. I have the feedback page bookmarked and do a write up for anything that bugs me.

I wish they would have one guy who was the liaison between Apple's Logic team and it's customers to answer the important questions. Not about future products, just about bugs and workarounds.

In fact I'll take that job!

[DeBasement]

Yes.. they're carefully monitoring the forums.

That must explain why so many of the bugs that were there in version 6 four years ago are still buzzing around in 8.01!

Seems pathetic to me that even the concept that Apple 'cares' has been relegated to 'inside rumor' status. It's well past the time that they should step up and actually PROVE that they care about the bugs. Say by, oh I don't know, FIXING THEM MAYBE.

Or possibly posting 1 or 2 replies to professional user feedback every few years or so.

I've been a Logic User since version 1. I use it professionally every day. And I'm currently pricing Pro Tools systems. Nuff said.

[Nordkrog]

Originally Posted by DeBasement

Yes.. they're carefully monitoring the forums.

That must explain why so many of the bugs that were there in version 6 four years ago are still buzzing around in 8.01!

Well, I didn't say that they were fixing everything they find on these pages neither that I like their lack of communication skills. I just wanted to encourage everyone to keep posting whatever kind of bugs they discover. And whatever wishis they may have.

Good luck with PT

[musikwerks]

I think that putting a human face to Logic support would be a good move on Apple's part. I'm impressed by SSL's presence here as well as the guys at FXpansion. That sort of thing generates a lot of goodwill and even if a solution is far away, the fact that they're her e and trying to help is a major plus that helps smooth over any immediate frustrations.

[Nu-tra]

I hope they make a "PING" feature for outboard gear use/ delay compensation.
Also wish they would make it easy to make mono outs vs stereo. I hate having to pan stuff out when I mix otb.

[Tui]

I don't doubt that Apple monitors forums such as GS. They've got to, given how quickly they responded to the cries for an option to hide the transport bar in L8, for example. That was virtually instantaneous.

However, I have a feeling they don't have enough staff for simultaneously dealing with all the old bugs and developing new features as well. I think Apple should employ a whole bunch of programmers for a year, just for the purpose of debugging Logic. That would be a major step in the right direction.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Tui

I don't doubt that Apple monitors forums such as GS. They've got to, given how quickly they responded to the cries for an option to hide the transport bar in L8, for example. That was virtually instantaneous.

However, I have a feeling they don't have enough staff for simultaneously dealing with all the old bugs and developing new features as well. I think Apple should employ a whole bunch of programmers for a year, just for the purpose of debugging Logic. That would be a major step in the right direction.

If they are listening, I sure hope someone wakes up and gets the mixer together. It is unbelievable that you can't move tracks around in the mixer, and that when you put AUX tracks in automation mode they move around, as a reflection of them moving to the top of the Arrange Window. They at least need a pref that allows you to keep the mixer the way you have it.

And PLEASE, instruments out to audio is great, but for heaven's sake have it come back into the session and place the audio automatically (bounce in place) without you having to manually drag everything back on screen. Cubase/Nuendo does this and it's a huge timesaver.

TH

[squelch]

PLEASE GIVE US *FULL* PLUGIN DELAY COMPENSATION INCLUDING MIDI!!!


Rant over

THe PING Feature would be brilliant too.....!

Cheers
Dave

[musikwerks]

I'm asking this question because I honestly have no idea as to the answer but.... are there any coders here that might be able to shed light on how hard modifying a software package like Logic would be? I've always wondered what it would look like at the code level... like in the matrix...

......You get used to it. I don't even see the code. All I see is Blonde, Brunette, Redhead . . ."

[ABBA]

Apple might be listening but they don't care...

[Nu-tra]

also a beat detective type thing. Or elastic audio type stuff.

[Kazrog]

Logic 8 is pretty sweet but Apple has some hurdles to overcome if they want to steer people away from Pro Tools. I gave Logic 8 a very serious consideration when I decided I was sick of Digital Performer, but ultimately I find that I prefer Pro Tools overall. I just wish I had all of Logic's plugins and synths in Pro Tools!! An AU to RTAS wrapper would solve the issue... wish there was such a thing...

[Jam]

Originally Posted by Kazrog

L. I just wish I had all of Logic's plugins and synths in Pro Tools!! An AU to RTAS wrapper would solve the issue... wish there was such a thing...

My understanding is that Logic's synths and effects are built into the programme rather than being AUs. So unfortunately I don't think it'll happen.

Jam

[Reptil]

as I don't have logic 8 yet, or tested it, I didn't sign, but here's a petition to Steve Jobs.

http://www.petitiononline.com/logicfor/petition.html

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Reptil

as I don't have logic 8 yet, or tested it, I didn't sign, but here's a petition to Steve Jobs.

Logic Studio Apple Bugs Petition

Until Pro Audio becomes a significant part of Apples revenue (read "never") don't count on getting Steve's attention. If you want to fly on your own, you buy Logic or Nuendo, if you want tech support and ongoing product development and testing, complete with frequent customer service release updates, you go Digidesign.

TH

[Reptil]

uh-uh don't think so.
first protools is NOT an option here, because of invested time, and cost, and limited midi on PT.
apple wants to be "dependable" and "pro".
why do you think they've removed negative posts?
spread the word, post on fora etc., if it becomes known in apple land, it might hurt them, bigtime.
and they know it.
and deserve it.
it's 2008 for pete's sake.
I WANT A BLOODY BUGFREE DAW

[807Recordings]

They really need to get midi control or other external controllers together... Nothing tops Ableton Live for that and they need to take notice why so many people use it. Also their Audio Warping in Logic is stupid and a very dated view of it. Outside of a few rockers non of the modern generation work that way. Rant all you want about it but there are more DJ's now than Rock Guitarists.

I would also like to see in the project just like in Sequoia or Samplitude the ability to burn straight to DVDA with indexing and CD.

ITS some basic stuff.

[oceantracks]

uh-uh don't think so.
first protools is NOT an option here, because of invested time, and cost, and limited midi on PT.
apple wants to be "dependable" and "pro".
why do you think they've removed negative posts?"

Releasing dependable software has nothing to do with removing posts, it's become a huge issue over there with many of the longtime users no longer posting because of it.

Logic simply isn't a priority. It's a loss leader to help sell Macs, to be sure, but you are not going to get the attention you want from Apple. I use Logic daily and love it, but I'm not having the problems others are, for whatever reason. But many longtime users complain of the same bugs being there for literally a couple of years now, so I wouldn't hold my breath. I hope I'm wrong and they kick butt on this thing, but if they were that serious, they would have a way of communicating with them. Their tech support told someone other day that they had "never heard" of the "System Overload" problems!

Tom

[dkatz42]

Originally Posted by musikwerks

are there any coders here that might be able to shed light on how hard modifying a software package like Logic would be?

Like all things, "it depends." There are a number of factors.

Bug fixes are relatively easy once the engineer has come up to speed on the code. The difficulty of this is a combination of how good the engineer is and how good the code is. Some code reads like a Clancey novel, and some like a poorly-translated Japanese electronic parts catalog.

Adding new features can range from pretty easy to nearly impossible, depending not only on the above issues, but also how well the new feature integrates into the architecture of what's already there. This in turn depends on how forward-looking the previous generation of coders were, and how long it's been since the last infrastructure rewrite.

Imagine wanting to add a studio space to the side of your house. Where are the load-bearing walls? Is there enough power run to that side? Heat and a/c? Internet and TV? Does the roof drain in the right place? Can you only reach it through the guest bedroom? You can see how it could be straightforward, or it could be a nightmare.

Companies that are serious about their software base periodically rewrite sizable chunks of it, to clean up years of incremental changes, to accommodate changing requirements, and to take into account a better understanding of how the whole thing should hang together. Kind of like ripping out all of the plumbing and electrical in your classic New Mexico home (with five dubious tacked-on additions over the last 100 years) and redoing it properly.

[gregohb]

1. Have a "diagnostic" mode that writes to a file somewhere to track bugs and crashes. They always use this excuse that your system is different than their test system, and they can't begin to understand why your system is unstable. Well, just like the "report this bug to apple" window, they can log internal system calls - when a user is in this mode, and have it track crashes, and then the user could send that file to Apple to help this correct things faster.

2. One annoying bug, is that EVERY DAY, when I start logic, it won't record audio until I go through some unnecessary steps (open the Audio prefs, change them, change them back, apply changes, voila its working again).

3. When I am working on a midi region in the arrange window, I click on a region to open the mini-matrix at the bottom, then decide to go to a full matrix window - but the matrix window is not the same region! Despite the link button being set.

4. In the matrix, if you have a cycle of say four bars, and the screen is zoomed to 5 bars, you often see bars 12, then the window skips to show 34 then skips to 12 - its annoying as hell, and this has been in Logic for years. I end up having to zoom out to 10 measures to stop the jittery bouncing.

[docbop]

The hard part is the public has no idea what its really like to do commercial software development. I used to be that human contact for a product like one of you suggested Apple do and a dev and QA engineer. I wish customer could hear themselves they all are 800 pound gorillas on the phone, email. or online and they all are either going to return the product or sue. Then everything is a life ending bug even just cosmetic issues. Then the ones reporting something broken and demanding fixes for some obscure thing that no normal user would ever do, but they came up with it and scream and holler and make threats. I could go on but you get the idea. That is why companies have tough time prioritizing bugs.

The other thing that people don't understand is the cost and time required to fix a bug. Yes, many bugs can be fixed easily, but the big time consumer is QA testing. How many other things broke because of the side-effects of making a code change. So many companies won't release bug files until they can perform a full QA cycle to test the fix. A full QA cycle especially on a product the size of Logic it could take weeks. So that is why companies are fixing things, but wait till they have a large stack of fixes before doing a QA cycle. Then code breaks code and that has to be fixed.
Then the fix has to be packaged and that has to be tested. So the fix and test process is long and costly. One place I worked (a large SW publisher still in business) had fixes to a product I worked on, but never shipped them, the budget wasn't there for the QA cycle. Attitude was a documented bug and/or workaround is as good as a fix.

Yes, I can hear some of you say open source does it. Open source you live on constant update because you are the QA team. One fix break other thing that some other people have to fix. Plus open source can't get sued if a bug fix corrupts or loses data and lawsuit are very real in the commercial world.

So I'm not trying to defend Apple or any software company, but give a peek into the other side. Getting bugs, prioritizing them, deciding when or if to fix, fixing, QA test, repeat and repeat, then package and test package, release. All the while new development is going on and these bugs and code has to be integrated to that bugbase. All the while real customers are screaming, phony customers are screaming even louder, and some large customers have lawyers writing letters.

FYI most new products or major upgrade have bug fixes waiting to be released, before the product hits the store shelves. The lead time to manufacture the CD/DVD's and package the products takes weeks and in that time bugs are found and fixed. I worked at a place where the QA guy started putting bug fixes on the website before the product had been released.

[DeBasement]

Well, since Apple is reading this so carefully and so eagerly taking notes on what their loyal professional users want...

Here's a sampling of what they've "forgotten" to do over the last 3 years of Logic "Pro" development... I guess they were too busy caring about us composer types.

1 - MIDI plugin delay compensation

2 - fix multi-channel VI's so that they can respond to channelized volume/pan automation... You know, the way every other DAW can. (Please spare me the workarounds)

3 - Time stretching, beat-slicing comparable to that in PT, Cubase, Nuendo, Live, etc.

4 - a 'control room' section for headphone mixes, control room monitoring, and talk back. Dedicated controls instead of 'build your own' environment kludge kits.

5 - no more 'overload' messages. Hit play - This time it works! hit play again -- System unable to comply. Fun!

6 - Ping feature for outboard equipment, as noted above

7 - Wait For Note. Hasnt worked in, what, 5 years now?

8 - Fix broken support for hardware control surfaces, messed up in Leopard.

9 - cure the sliding outta sync bugs in the new comp/take-mode "feature".

10. Add "burn" to the "freeze" audio option. 'Burn' would be a one button method of committing all plugins to audio on a given track, or converting a soft-synth to audio without having to export, reload and realign.

11. Fix data/song management and file naming features that have been screwed up in L8, resulting in dozens of posts from confused and frustrated composers asking "where are my audio files?" "Why does Logic keep forgetting the audio destination folder?" "Why are all my files named the same?".

12. Larger font size option. For high resolution screens on a meter bridge, or more than a couple feet away, most of the type is verging on illegible.

13. Pop/Click/Stutter detection. I'd ask for prevention, but when is that gonna happen? At least, if Logic is truly PRO it would stop or send up an alert when the audio output is audibly compromised by digital glitches. Just the same way Final Cut Pro alerts you when there are dropped frames.

14. Customer Support. Respond to criticism, feedback, bug reports, and conflicts with 3rd party products. No pro app can completely ignore the pro user base.

So many more points I can't remember right now. It gets so tiring writing (and reading) these same complaints and feature requests again and again. If Apple truly cared, at least some of the things on this list might have appeared in the last 3 or 4 years. Nope. There are only two possibilities. 1) they don't care, or 2) they DO care, bu they're just too darn busy with something else 'more important' to do anything about it.

[Nordkrog]

Originally Posted by DeBasement

9 - cure the sliding outta sync bugs in the new comp/take-mode "feature".

.

This seems to be fixed in 8.0.1 I had LOADS of problems with the comp thing in 8.0. and since I updated to 8.0.1 it works fine.

[R3k]

Originally Posted by Reptil

as I don't have logic 8 yet, or tested it, I didn't sign, but here's a petition to Steve Jobs.

Logic Studio Apple Bugs Petition

**** that!!

DO you / some others want to loose this app? If Apple stops developing it, do you think they're going to give the rights back and emagic and all is sweet?

No, logic will die. That would be a huge impact for many of us. Huge.....

There are 3 apps that can function as our outfit needs.. They are Logic, Digital Performer, and Pro Tools (HD). Thats 2 x native,

That said, as a user for along time, I am quite dissatisfied with many broken features and bugs in Logic, many of which cause me hell most days. I belive they have a very old and inflexible code base, and this makes certain fixes almost monumental tasks to repair.

But the VIP and Beata groups, and those invloved are doing there best, the user public are being listened to.... and Emapple, though trying, are so hindered by Apples disclosure policy that they cant even let you know that they're listening, or even give honest answers.

Here hopes they are focusing on writing the logic code base from the ground up, quietly in the background. Hopefully this doesn't mean we have 'Garage Band Pro' only in 5 years time,

[Græmatter Audio]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

If they are listening, I sure hope someone wakes up and gets the mixer together. It is unbelievable that you can't move tracks around in the mixer, and that when you put AUX tracks in automation mode they move around, as a reflection of them moving to the top of the Arrange Window. They at least need a pref that allows you to keep the mixer the way you have it.

TH

Huh? Before you complain about something you might as well get to grips with how it actually works ... I've had plenty of things to complain about with Logic lately, but the mixer/arrange window relationship is not one of them - the way it works is actually quite genius and is one of the reasons I've preferred Logic for mixing ever since it's implementation of PDC on Auxes.

You in fact can move channels around in the mixer - you do this be rearranging the order in which they appear in the arrange page ... This assumes that you have the "arrange" view option selected in the mixer window - the "all" option will show you all of the audio objects available as determined by their presence and order in the Environment rather than just what you happen to be using in the arrange page at the time (Honestly there's not a whole lot of reason to even use this mode now that Bus/Aux creation and assignment is handled automatically.) You can also hide or show subsets i.e. Aux, Output, etc. in either view mode - there's also the new single view mode which some may find useful as it just shows you the Auxes and Outputs associated with the track that you've selected in the arrange page - the same stuff that's accessible in the arrange window dual channel display.

In "arrange" view mode Auxes are treated in the exact same way as regular channels - just select "Create/Select Arrange Track" from the drop down menu when you control-click on the Aux to make it appear on the arrange page (I felt double clicking on it as was the pre-L8 behavior to be a quicker and more elegant means of accomplishing this - and I also think the new drop-down menus are usually redundant and/or useless, not least because they've forced the control-click elastic band behaviour to change ... but that's another story.)

Alternatively, and this is what seems to be tripping you up, is that you will also cause an Aux to appear in the arrange page if you put it into an Automation mode - this happens for what should be a perfectly obvious reason, as you won't be able to edit or manually enter automation for the Aux if there's not a lane in the arrange page to display it in.

Point is, however you got it to appear, you can now freely move the Aux to display in the arrange page, and the "arrange" view mixer, exactly where you want it. This is where the "genius" bit comes in - you can have your mixer display e.g. your snare followed by an Aux with a gate + trashy distortion on it, followed by an Aux with a dedicated snare verb/delay, etc. whatever, the sky's the limit. If on the other hand you want your Auxes to continue displaying at the far right of the mixer, simply put the first Aux you send to the arrange page at the bottom of the page - subsequent Auxes that you send over will appear underneath it ... alternatively just use the "All" mixer view mode for what it was designed for.

Really the only issues I see in L8 with how all of this works have to do with the fact that the dual channel display is forced, and often redundant, especially if you've arranged channels and Auxes in the arrange page as I've described (I believe I've already posted about this in detail elsewhere) it's actually quicker to use the up and down arrows to select between a channel and it's related Auxes while keeping the mouse hovering over the arrange channel fader in order to change the relative levels than to move between the two channels selecting which Aux you want to adjust by clicking on the Associated send, only to have the second fader switch back to displaying the output channel as soon as you touch the originating channel fader. Don't get me wrong, the new way of automatically creating and assigning Auxes can be very convenient, but the whole implementation overlooks another very powerful feature - i.e. the capability to route the same bus to the input of multiple Auxes - in order to make Mults make sense in the context of the new interface I've found it neccesary to use a new and different send/bus for every additional Aux for a given channel - not a huge inconvenience given the ease with which they can be created, but still ... bulky and inelegant - which (to me) goes against the interface design philosophy that Logic has historically appeared to be based on. I would really like to see an option to resize the "Inspector" pane in order to get rid of the often redundant second channel display, and reclaim some arrange page real-estate for editing. I honestly could give a rat's ass if that means fade parameters are partially obscured - I know where to find them, and it was never a problem in previous versions.

This is my fundamental complaint about the interface changes in L8 ... it really feels like it was designed by a team whose strength is in designing interfaces for visually-oriented applications ... what the fine folks at Apple need to remember, however, is that Logic is an Audio Application, and it's visual component should reflect this fact. I want an interface that I can look through, not at. The "solid-object" look and feel really bothers me. Things like the metallic-silver color and subtle depth-cue shading of the transport bar, inspector and buttons as well as the totally unnecessary gradients on regions contribute to this impression, as well as the overall "indestructible" nature of the one window-interface ... the end result is I've frequently felt like smashing my monitor instead of making music - not a good thing obviously.

Standardization as a concept is great - I don't have a problem with brand consistency, but I do have a problem when "style" wins out over functionality and practicality, especially when it pretends to prioritize "functional design" as part of it's marketing shtick/branding. I've been seeing this happen more and more with Apple in general of late and I don't like it - quite frankly if there were a viable alternative to their hardware/software for what I do at this point, I'd use it ... and recommend it to everyone I know.

G.

[oceantracks]

Huh? Before you complain about something you might as well get to grips with how it actually works ... I've had plenty of things to complain about with Logic lately, but the mixer/arrange window relationship is not one of them - the way it works is actually quite genius and is one of the reasons I've preferred Logic for mixing ever since it's implementation of PDC on Auxes.

You in fact can move channels around in the mixer - you do this be rearranging the order in which they appear in the arrange page ... This assumes that you have the ...."

Well hey, if you find it more convenient...when you want to move a track in the MIXER window.....to go to the ARRANGE window to do it, more power to you...I think (and others have posted in the Apple forum and agree) that it's really silly.

I think it comes down to what one poster said, that Logic is designed (he said) to be all about the ARRANGE window. In his view, the ARRANGE window was everything, and everything else was just a plus. So if you like mixing in the arrange window, it's great. I don't. I don't want AUX tracks moving around on their own, I want them to stay where I put them

As far as the interface goes, I am getting more done, more quickly, than I ever did in Logic before Logic 8. The window on the right of the arrange is super, I switch from tempo, to time sig, to the library and everything is laid out right in front of me. The Library especially makes working with VI's heaven. Nobody has this, and for this reason I'm sticking with Logic, even though I believe Nuendo has some wonderful things about it (like the WARP Tool).


TH

[oceantracks]

"Alternatively, and this is what seems to be tripping you up, is that you will also cause an Aux to appear in the arrange page if you put it into an Automation mode - this happens for what should be a perfectly obvious reason, as you won't be able to edit or manually enter automation for the Aux if there's not a lane in the arrange page to display it in."

Having the AUX appear in the Arrange is perfectly fine....having it move from where I had it in the mixer, less so

TH

[dkatz42]

Originally Posted by docbop

I wish customer could hear themselves they all are 800 pound gorillas on the phone, email. or online and they all are either going to return the product or sue. Then everything is a life ending bug even just cosmetic issues. Then the ones reporting something broken and demanding fixes for some obscure thing that no normal user would ever do, but they came up with it and scream and holler and make threats.

Heh, my condolences. I've been on the development side of Internet infrastructure stuff since the mid-80s, and the fact that my bug could put the company on the front page of the NY Times and trigger an FCC investigation kind of puts DAW bugs into perspective. You've never heard screaming until you've heard a VP of a large ISP holler when a million of his customers are cut off. It's actually kind of cool, in the way a train wreck is cool.

[nativeaudio]

Well hey, if you find it more convenient...when you want to move a track in the MIXER window.....to go to the ARRANGE window to do it, more power to you...I think (and others have posted in the Apple forum and agree) that it's really silly.

Logic has worked this way since audio was implemented around version 2.5. It would probably be fast and easy to implement a way to be able to rearrange the mixer tracks from the mixer itself if enough people ask for it.

Try this link: Apple - Logic Pro - Feedback