1st Impressions Ocean Way Drums

[oceantracks]

Got them yesterday actually, but couldn't use them because of a disk read error. Fortunately, Mike at Sonic Reality overnighted (Saturday delivery no less) a replacement and I was up and running today.

System: New Mac Pro 2.8 with 8 gig ram. OS 10.5.1 Logic 8x

Installed OWD on internal SATA drive with no other data being accessed on that drive.

Other drum libraries I use are Superior, EZY Drummer, and all manner of Giga libraries retired to the closet after I sold the PC.

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Load times even on a fast Mac are relatively slow, but it's understandable when you watch how many samples are flying by as they load up. After the first one, it seems other kits load a bit faster, but that could be in my head.

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Interface is excellent, very easy to tweak quickly. And the guys who made this thing should be given an award if for nothing else than for the wonderful implementation of being able to hit "C0" on your keyboard and cycle quickly through different levels of ambience on the kit, from dry to VERY wet. Six levels I believe, and it makes quickly auditioning a given kit for a song a breeze. You can fast find out whether you are in the ballpark or not for the song you're doing without ever picking up the mouse once the kit is loaded. Terrific stuff. Every second saved, as we all know, is a help. Caution, the manual warns that you should not change these presets via keyboard while a song is playing...let everything ring out and be done before changing ambience or risk a crash. I didn't temp fate, and thus had no crashes.

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The sounds are among the best I've used. They are big, immediate, and in your face. Some of the best toms I've heard, they really cut through the track. It's definitely a high-fi job they've done here, and the only thing I haven't quite gotten a handle on is that some of the crashes don't knock you back ten feet as in other kits, probably a volume thing that I need to get used to with the overhead mics. Muting the drums I was using in a song I'm currently doing, I quickly did a sequence for OWD, and loaded kit after kit trying to find one that worked well. The problem I found, was that all of them worked well, in different ways. And this is with no tweaking, and using only the stereo mix presets that are built in. The stereo mixes are so well done that I had to remind myself I wasn't using any EQ, or comps, or separate outs. Pretty impressive.

Superior, when I first got it, was a revelation. It was the first time it actually sounded like a real drummer was in the room with me, and Superior had a lot of oddball snare and kick sounds (wasn't ever really happy with the kicks) that were interesting but hard to use (for me) in my everyday work. Superior rocks and is an outstanding library, and I'm sure 2.0 will be killer.

OWD gives the same "Wow, is there a real drummer here?" impact, but with drums that you actually hear on records, or I do anyway. Fat snares, ringy snares, tight snares, same with the kicks, etc. I think one could use this library to do a lot of damage in a lot of styles of work.

Again this is SO preliminary. I have only spent a few hours with it today on one track that is being done for a national TV spot. But it already ate the drums I was using for the spot for lunch, and right now my toughest decision is which kit to use. That's a good problem.

Is it worth the money? This set ain't cheap, even with a discount from the music store I spend a lot of money at each year. They give me great deals and it still was a big hit. But it was about 750 for just the orchestral percussion library I have from VSL, so I can't gripe. I don't have to worry about drums for a long time. And the amount of work that went into them must have been huge. I just can't expect that something like this would run 400.00, so yes, it's worth the money.

All for now. I'll chime in after a few weeks work with these and post any new discoveries.

Highly recommended, as the movie critics say.


TH

[relayer]

Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. I'll be keeping my eye on this product and as soon as they add chinas and splashes, I'll probably snag it.

Cheers.

Steve

[Animus]

Thanks for the review.


I wouldn't hold my breath for splashes and chinas. Companies have a tendency to promise stuff before they get your money and don't deliver after they have it. cynical I know. Seems to me if they were going to have those they would have done it with the rest but now they would have to setup another whole session to record them.

[relayer]

Originally Posted by Animus

I wouldn't hold my breath for splashes and chinas. Companies have a tendency to promise stuff before they get your money and don't deliver after they have it. cynical I know. Seems to me if they were going to have those they would have done it with the rest but now they would have to setup another whole session to record them.

I tend to be cynical about that kind of stuff as well. In this case, Dave from Sonic Reality has indicated that it will happen sometime this year. I know him from another forum and he's proven pretty trustworthy. I don't think it's that big a deal to record more samples for this particular product, being that it's a co-production with an actual studio. They can use the same gear and set-up anytime they want. In any case, this is a product that I'm quite willing to let "mature" before investing. I'm having much greater than anticipated success with Addictive Drums, so there's no rush and if OWD doesn't deliver, I'll be none the worse.

Cheers.

Steve

[allencollins]

I like them. You really hear what difference a pro room makes when tracking drums.
The timbre of those drum sounds are killer

[Animus]

Question about all the mics and drums. Are you able to route all the different elements--individual drums, overheads, rooms, etc--to their own output in Kontakt?


thanks

[Squids]

Originally Posted by dylansmale

Just went to there web site. Sounds killer, but like you said the volume of the cymbals seems to be a real big problem. I also wonder how much time they really put into the whole production. No doubt about it though, that they really went above and over.

That's the part no one ever REALLY knows about a product except for the people that did it. In order to get this product to do all of the things mentioned above it took quite a lot more time and money to do. For instance, even just the 6 mixes per kit. This is actually 6 mixes per drum per kit... basically over 400 mixes that we had Allen Sides and Steven Miller do (not us at Sonic Reality who would NORMALLY be the "patch programmers" like most other sound development companies who do that work in house because it is tedious). By the end of all that work the two of them wanted to KILL me! But, it just had to be done BY them AT Ocean Way for it to really be WORTH something to the end user. I think we'd all want some of THEIR mix engineering on Allen's $65,000 speakers (the same massive speakers that bands mix on in Studio D or at Dr Dre's room at Ocean Way Record One). So just THAT effort alone made it cost many times more to do.

But, like I said, this was a very rare opportunity to do this product WITH Ocean Way Recording and Allen Sides himself using his own personal hand selected mics that he's picked out of thousands and in Studio B with that on of a kind console... let's put it this way. Sonic Reality has done some expensive projects in the past. For instance, I personally bought out Miroslav Vitous completely for his orchestra and choir so we could create Miroslav Philharmonik plug-in with IK. While I can't share with you what that cost you can imagine it was quite a lot! Plus all of the programming we had to do. Well, even with Sonic Reality only being a partner in Ocean Way Drums with Ocean Way Recording it costs us much more than anything we've done before. Studio time, people's time, flights, hotels, V-Drum kits, drums, recording gear... Over a year of this? Months of studio time at Ocean Way Recording alone is much much more than I am used to spending on a product. So the price reflects all of this and of course the biggest part which is the end result. The content you get for your money: 19 kits with snares on and snares off (so 38 kits really), mapped for both I-Map (keyboard) and V-Drums (drum pads), consistentyly 6 mixes (12 for the snares) for EVERY DRUM in the package. Only the BEST material was kept (so tons of things that Allen and Steven didn't like were thrown out to offer only the most impressive sounds - each one has a sonic and musical purpose)... it's worth it in the same way VSL is worth what it costs.

If/when I can get Allen Sides to record some orchestral sounds over at Ocean Way and the Paramount Sound Stage (which he also owns) then it will be even clearer that this new line of "Ocean Way" branded products is like our version of a Vienna Symphony line. By the way, you know the extended 20th Century Fox theme that you hear at the beginning of movies like Star Wars? Allen recorded that! You should hear what it sounds like on the Ocean Way Recording speakers!!! Unbelievable.

As I've said, if anyone complains that our drums are too expensive we can point them to drums we've worked on that are sold at almost every price point from $25 to $200 on up to the top of the line Ocean Way Drums. The price depends on what it is and what went into it! We're just making the products we're lucky enough to be able to make via collaborations such as this! They cost what they cost. The choice is yours and if you can afford it then by all means don't deprive yourself of something that wouldn't exist without major effort and risk on our part.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by Animus

Thanks for the review.


I wouldn't hold my breath for splashes and chinas. Companies have a tendency to promise stuff before they get your money and don't deliver after they have it. cynical I know. Seems to me if they were going to have those they would have done it with the rest but now they would have to setup another whole session to record them.

Luckily in this case you have access to the companies sometimes and I can tell you right now that Chinas and Splashes are not being ADDED to this library. OWD was for more standard drums with rides and crashes. But ANOTHER Ocean Way product that is separate may just have this and more... but please buy OWD on its own merits and not based on promised future products that are separate anyway.

What we DO have for Chinas and Splashes are either other "non-Ocean Way" libraries that have already been released or are coming out from Sonic Reality very soon such as Danny Gottlieb's Cymbal Collection featuring over 200 cymbals including ones he's used with Pat Metheny Group and also cymbals that belonged to Mel Louis, Joe Morelllo and Don Lemond (including some VERY VERY rare prototypes, chinas with rivets and esoteric stuff) or even other SR drum products that use I-Map. Those are all great but they aren't recorded at Ocean Way so it depends on what you want/need.

If you want more Ocean Way cymbals recorded by Allen Sides then "unofficially" I can tell you that this is planned this year along with other things like brushes, maybe percussion... other sounds that Allen has in mind. I love it when he gets excited about what he wants to record because I know it is going to be stellar. But like I said, most likely it will be another Ocean Way branded product in ADDITION to OWD. Maybe a little cross-grade discount would be possible.

Personally, if the only thing holding me back from this was Chinas and Splashes I would just add those in from something else... but you'd have to own Kontakt to really do that. The good thing is that almost ALL Sonic Reality drum products come with I-Map kits at least and a lot of the new ones even come with V-Drum Maps too with multis that have interchangeable drums in them. That means you can just GRAB a china instrument and a splash instrument into Kontakt and it instantly goes along side any other I-Map or V-Drum Kit you have such as an Ocean Way kit. This is the benefit of our own standard mapping. It may be different (more advanced) than GM but it is still relatively consistent within Sonic Reality so you can make use of the midi files you make and/or mix and match between libraries if you want...

The important thing if you do that stuff is just remember that one product is made with Ocean Way Recording and the other products are NOT made by them. They're made with other studios, producers or artists such as the Ken Scott sessions I recently did with Billy Cobham. That one has a great China. But, that has nothing to do with Ocean Way. Completely separate except that if you have both products they do interesting things working together (ie. you can take Billy Cobhams midi grooves and have them play Ocean Way Drums if you want!). The common denominator in all of this is Sonic Reality and our particular approach to the mapping and programming within samplers like Kontakt.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by Animus

Question about all the mics and drums. Are you able to route all the different elements--individual drums, overheads, rooms, etc--to their own output in Kontakt?


thanks

Yes, they are already set up this way but if you want to go even more discrete there are different ways to do that however some limitations apply depending on what DAW you use. We're actually working on a document that talks about how to get the most out of each DAW and individual outputs so that will be up on line in the next couple of weeks.

[relayer]

Originally Posted by Squids

...Allen has all sorts of add ons he wants to do though and yes it will include chinas, splashes and also brush kits... plus some things that have not ever been released to. Little secret things that have been used on records. I love when he says that! So I too am looking forward to it this year...

... and I can tell you now that Chinas and Splashes are not being ADDED to this library...

Hmmm. When you say "add-ons" one might have assumed "additions to" instead of a separate product. So in actuality, I'll have to buy Kontakt and an additional product for Chinas and Splashes. Gotta have 'em - it's how I play. Well phooey.

Steve

[drBill]

Sounds good, but still, I prefer the real deal. Nice samples though. I personally wouldn't pay that much for drum samples. That's a LOT of cash!!!

[Animus]

Another week has gone by an only one person on Gearslutz has reported having it and arguably there is a higher concentration of "pros" here. If this thing is selling like hotcakes where are they? Too busy using the product?

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by drBill

Sounds good, but still, I prefer the real deal. Nice samples though. I personally wouldn't pay that much for drum samples. That's a LOT of cash!!!

Oh no, you mean these aren't real drums! Heavens!

TH

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Squids

Luckily in this case you have access to the companies sometimes and I can tell you right now that Chinas and Splashes are not being ADDED to this library. OWD was for more standard drums with rides and crashes. But ANOTHER Ocean Way product that is separate may just have this and more... but please buy OWD on its own merits and not based on promised future products that are separate anyway.

What we DO have for Chinas and Splashes are either other "non-Ocean Way" libraries that have already been released or are coming out from Sonic Reality very soon such as Danny Gottlieb's Cymbal Collection featuring over 200 cymbals including ones he's used with Pat Metheny Group and also cymbals that belonged to Mel Louis, Joe Morelllo and Don Lemond (including some VERY VERY rare prototypes, chinas with rivets and esoteric stuff) or even other SR drum products that use I-Map. Those are all great but they aren't recorded at Ocean Way so it depends on what you want/need.

If you want more Ocean Way cymbals recorded by Allen Sides then "unofficially" I can tell you that this is planned this year along with other things like brushes, maybe percussion... other sounds that Allen has in mind. I love it when he gets excited about what he wants to record because I know it is going to be stellar. But like I said, most likely it will be another Ocean Way branded product in ADDITION to OWD. Maybe a little cross-grade discount would be possible.

Personally, if the only thing holding me back from this was Chinas and Splashes I would just add those in from something else... but you'd have to own Kontakt to really do that. The good thing is that almost ALL Sonic Reality drum products come with I-Map kits at least and a lot of the new ones even come with V-Drum Maps too with multis that have interchangeable drums in them. That means you can just GRAB a china instrument and a splash instrument into Kontakt and it instantly goes along side any other I-Map or V-Drum Kit you have such as an Ocean Way kit. This is the benefit of our own standard mapping. It may be different (more advanced) than GM but it is still relatively consistent within Sonic Reality so you can make use of the midi files you make and/or mix and match between libraries if you want...

The important thing if you do that stuff is just remember that one product is made with Ocean Way Recording and the other products are NOT made by them. They're made with other studios, producers or artists such as the Ken Scott sessions I recently did with Billy Cobham. That one has a great China. But, that has nothing to do with Ocean Way. Completely separate except that if you have both products they do interesting things working together (ie. you can take Billy Cobhams midi grooves and have them play Ocean Way Drums if you want!). The common denominator in all of this is Sonic Reality and our particular approach to the mapping and programming within samplers like Kontakt.

This is all well and good, but for the money, we really should have had them included in the set, and adding them from somewhere else, though obviously doable, negates one of the main attractions of buying the set....that it was sampled at Ocean Way and there is a sound to the room etc. Less important on cymbals, I realize. Maybe you could offer "expansion packs" for OWD" that included stuff like this, and whatever else you have in mind.

Been working with them all week, really nice. And the cymbal level thing I mentioned in an early post is no longer a problem, I didn't realize that there were separate levels for the cyms...very cool.

Tom

[Squids]

Originally Posted by relayer

Hmmm. When you say "add-ons" one might have assumed "additions to" instead of a separate product. So in actuality, I'll have to buy Kontakt and an additional product for Chinas and Splashes. Gotta have 'em - it's how I play. Well phooey.

Steve

"additions to" or "separate product" is not much different if you'd have to pay for it. If it was free that'd be different but more samples are not planned as freebies at this point. Other things like more patches and midi files from famous drummers are though. If the price is affordable to someone in the first place then adding something to get chinas, splashes and other sounds with an additional products can't be that bad. I suppose it depends on how much one wants the Ocean Way Drum sounds in the first place. There are ways to make it work to suit people's needs such as this.

[idrinkalot]

Originally Posted by Squids

That's the part no one ever REALLY knows about a product except for the people that did it.

...

the kid you're quoting also just made a thread saying that DJs are the worst people on earth and only real musicians should get to be on a stage.. so i don't think i'd take his opinion on drum samples too much to heart.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by drBill

Sounds good, but still, I prefer the real deal. Nice samples though. I personally wouldn't pay that much for drum samples. That's a LOT of cash!!!

I am all for recording a real kit too whenever possible! But, what I as a music maker myself don't have access to is a room like Ocean Way Studio B, the mics and recording gear they have and Allen Sides to record and mix them for me! Neither do most people. Even if you DID have thousands of dollars a day and the connections to make that happen... do you have that budget for every song you do? Most people don't. So, it has its place. The sonic variety and fidelity come in handy when you can use it over and over at any time of the day or night and total recall of a sound you may like as well... which with real drums you can't always rely on getting the SAME sound twice.

That said, I haven't sold my drum kits. I have a vintage Ludwig Keystone badge and a Danny Gottlieb kit and I used to have Lyle Workman's Round Badge Gretsch kit that Josh Freese lent him... that was a beautiful Champagne Sparkle set that I miss. I have big Bruford Rotos and all kinds of stuff I would hesitate to mic up for the right session... and I have access to more drum samples that probably anyone! But I just don't think they're mutually exclusive that's all. Whatever works! I think it is a great tool to have in the shed. But it all depends on the music you produce and if these things matter to you... not to mention your TIME which is probably the biggest saver because it can take a whille to get a great drum sound not to mention setting up and tearing down multiple kits just to hear different character sounds.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

This is all well and good, but for the money, we really should have had them included in the set, and adding them from somewhere else, though obviously doable, negates one of the main attractions of buying the set....that it was sampled at Ocean Way and there is a sound to the room etc. Less important on cymbals, I realize. Maybe you could offer "expansion packs" for OWD" that included stuff like this, and whatever else you have in mind.

Been working with them all week, really nice. And the cymbal level thing I mentioned in an early post is no longer a problem, I didn't realize that there were separate levels for the cyms...very cool.

Tom

By the way, your review really was great and I forwarded it to Allen Sides who was really impressed how much you "got it". I want to post some user reviews on the site so if you don't mind yours included let me know.

I can see how someone would expect Chinas and Splashes. It's not out of the question that it'd be added later either. But the way Kontakt Player works is that it is compiled and encrypted as one thing. It's not meant to be expanded and would have to be completely recompiled which is a big thing for Native Instruments to do especially libraries this size (Platinum is 80gigs). It then has to be tested and recompiled if there are any errors in their installers... it took us an extra month or more JUST for that part! So that's why I said that it will most likely be included in another player product and/or an upgrade to a bundle that has both down the line. Not sure yet and this is unofficial but I CAN tell you that this isn't planned to be the only Ocean Way instrument product... and that Chinas and Splashes among other things has definitely been brought up.

[Animus]

It's all arguable of course. But I am leaning towards Superior 2 at the moment. The demos sounds terrific (I think they edge out the OWD demos as far as detail and sound) and the pricepoint is great, and it was recorded in 3 great rooms and is a "complete" package of drum sounds, including all standard cymbals. Having the "Ocean Way" sound would be cool but I am not hearing anything that doesn't have a equivalent with S2.0 and it's almost double the price. I wish I could afford them all but I have to be frugal.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by Animus

Another week has gone by an only one person on Gearslutz has reported having it and arguably there is a higher concentration of "pros" here. If this thing is selling like hotcakes where are they? Too busy using the product?

Don't know. But, I can tell you that West LA has already sold out of it and I do know a pretty nice list of pros using it that are putting giving us testimonials for it. I just can't name them until those are released. As for more slutz... well, I DO encourage more people here to buy it so that Animus can hear more reviews!

Seriously, it is a hot seller right now but it is still making its way out there into the stores. It's not even shipped to all the chain stores yet. It takes a while to get it our everywhere. It's only been released less than a month. If we're patient I am sure we'll see more user reviews here.

[Animus]

Originally Posted by Squids

Don't know. But, I can tell you that West LA has already sold out of it and I do know a pretty nice list of pros using it that are putting giving us testimonials for it. I just can't name them until those are released. As for more slutz... well, I DO encourage more people here to buy it so that Animus can hear more reviews!

Seriously, it is a hot seller right now but it is still making its way out there into the stores. It's not even shipped to all the chain stores yet. It takes a while to get it our everywhere. It's only been released less than a month. If we're patient I am sure we'll see more user reviews here.

Not as much reviews, but I want to hear lot's of real world demos.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by Animus

It's all arguable of course. But I am leaning towards Superior 2 at the moment. The demos sounds terrific (I think they edge out the OWD demos as far as detail and sound) and the pricepoint is great, and it was recorded in 3 great rooms and is a "complete" package of drum sounds, including all standard cymbals. Having the "Ocean Way" sound would be cool but I am not hearing anything that doesn't have a equivalent with S2.0 and it's almost double the price.

I am sure Superior 2.0 will be fantastic. So by all means why not get it? I'm gonna get it too. But, I promise you that it doesn't have the equivalent sounds to Ocean Way Drums. They're different, they will not sound the same. Unless it was recorded in THIS room with THIS gear with THESE guys (and mixed the same way... with 6 mixes PER drum... not per kit but per DRUM - and mixes done by the major engineers STILL at the major studio which I seriously seriously doubt that ANYONE else has done... because, if for nothing else, it is so darn expensive to do that!) it won't sound the same.

Going by the audio demo alone only tells you a small fraction of what it will be like in your hands. Ask anyone who has it, like Oceantracks or anyone else on here or anywhere else. If you're in LA or in a city where it has been installed on a machine then check it out for yourself in person. Then you'll REALLY know.

The bottom line though is that as good as ANYONE whether it is me or a user of it says the only thing that matters is whether YOU will like it. If you're happy with Superior 2.0 or anything else then there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe that's all you want to spend and you get the results you need from it. Who could blame anyone for choosing to do that? Gotta get what suits your needs. But, as you can see from the price, Ocean Way Drums isn't even positioned for the guy who is on looking for the cheapest one. We have other products at Sonic Reality that are ideal for any budget. THIS product line that we're involved in with Ocean Way Recording is made for the person who wants THAT sound and can find a way to justify the expense. It's the same kind of person that wouldn't balk at getting Superior 2.0 or Andy Johns and BFD or anything else they thought would be a good tool to have in their production set up. I suppose one could buy JUST Ocean Way Drums and be "all set" (no pun intended) for drum sounds but I never looked at it that way... as proven by my plethora of other drum products coming out with different flavors of drum kit and grooves.

So, to be clear, there is one product that has the Ocean Way sound. Ocean Way Drums. That's it. Other products may very well have other cool sounds from different studios. That's awesome too! But it is not the same thing and never will be... and visa versa.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by Animus

Not as much reviews, but I want to hear lot's of real world demos.

I am working on a track with Phil Collins on drums right now. When I do a remix of it I will use Ocean Way Drums building up rhythms along with his drumming to make a tribal kind of thing with it. Although it will be mixed with real drums so not the best demo. I am sure I'll be using it on other things alone.

There's a very famous band with an incredible drummer that just bought it and apparently they're using it for some tunes triggered by V-Drums. So I look forward to hearing that. Over time I am sure we'll hear all kinds of things. There was even a tune that is already on the radio apparently that has Ocean Way Drums on it (and it hasn't even been out a month). I know several albums being made right now that have it on there actually but it isn't my place to say necessarily. One of them is a reunion of some band that I am not even sure that's public so... I have to be quiet about some things that I am not sure of until it is officially announced. That's just for now. Soon we'll be posting various user reviews and demos ourselves... and I am sure some will come up on forums like this. Funny thing is that the first people to post some good user demos will actually get it heard by Allen Sides and other industry people so... I know what I'd do with that opportunity! Imagine he heard your tune and wanted to record it with some big artist he's working with. Hey... you never know! It might even just be cool to hear what he thought of it. In fact, I think we may do a user demo contest at some point. It'd be fun to see what people do! Maybe first prize gets a day of recording at Ocean Way. Anyone wanna see second prize? A set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired (name the movie?).

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Squids

I am all for recording a real kit too whenever possible! But, what I as a music maker myself don't have access to is a room like Ocean Way Studio B, the mics and recording gear they have and Allen Sides to record and mix them for me! Neither do most people.

Yeah, but that's not necessary. Not in the slightest IMO. For me it's about music first, then appropriate sound second. Music trumps sound - always. And when you're comparing a real breathing set of wood and vibrating heads compared to static samples, there's no contest. Yeah, the samples 'sound' great as far as samples go. But they still don't translate and "feel" like the real deal. No samples do. Not even when replacing a real performance played on real drums.

Same thing with sampled pianos. Play one note.....amazing sound. Fantastic. Then, try to play MUSIC with the samples. It always falls flat. Always. Not that it can't work out acceptably - it can. But make no mistake, it's not a replacement for the real deal.

I guess I'm lucky that I have a great room to record drums in and a great drummer. There's no samples and programming off a keyboard that can match that. Sometimes I'll use samples though, and if these were priced more realistically, I'd probably pick them up, but $900 is off the hook IMO.

PS - I find that getting good drums sounds is really easy if you have a good drummer. A decent room and decent mics help, but really, it's not rocket science. I'm not a world class engineer, but I'm always kind of amazed at how bad people can make drums sound sometimes.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Squids

and mixes done by the major engineers STILL at the major studio which I seriously seriously doubt that ANYONE else has done... because, if for nothing else, it is so darn expensive to do that!

Been done.....EZdrummer

Nashville EZX - recorded and mixed by Check Ainley at The Soup Kitchen in Nashville.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out other EZX's and Superior packs have been handled likewise. Certainly Toontrack have spared no expense on major studios and major engineers.
Not to mention Platinum (Johns and Baressi) and BFD2 (Air Studios).

I'm only trying to level the playing field here.
You talk about the expense and the effort as if it's something new. Superior 2 has been 3 years in the making at 3 major studios.
I say let the customer decide based on the features, kit lists and the sound.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by drBill

Yeah, but that's not necessary. Not in the slightest IMO. For me it's about music first, then appropriate sound second. Music trumps sound - always. And when you're comparing a real breathing set of wood and vibrating heads compared to static samples, there's no contest. Yeah, the samples 'sound' great as far as samples go. But they still don't translate and "feel" like the real deal. No samples do. Not even when replacing a real performance played on real drums.

Same thing with sampled pianos. Play one note.....amazing sound. Fantastic. Then, try to play MUSIC with the samples. It always falls flat. Always. Not that it can't work out acceptably - it can. But make no mistake, it's not a replacement for the real deal.

I guess I'm lucky that I have a great room to record drums in and a great drummer. There's no samples and programming off a keyboard that can match that. Sometimes I'll use samples though, and if these were priced more realistically, I'd probably pick them up, but $900 is off the hook IMO.

PS - I find that getting good drums sounds is really easy if you have a good drummer. A decent room and decent mics help, but really, it's not rocket science. I'm not a world class engineer, but I'm always kind of amazed at how bad people can make drums sound sometimes.

You are lucky if you have a great sounding room and drummer. Most musicians don't necessarily have that... and the mics and mic pres etc. But even so there is a reason that all of these artists want to record AT Ocean Way! Why when they could record in their own local great sounding rooms with their great drummers? There must be a reason. Why do you find Radiohead, Jon Brion Chilli Peppers, Rolling Stones, Beck, Fiona Apple, Green Day, Paul McCartney, Eric Clapton and the list goes on and on... why do they record at Ocean Way if it is as simple as "easy for anyone to get a great drum sound?"

Don't get me wrong. I don't completely disagree with you. I get what you're saying and I applaud anyone who doesn't forget the enjoyment and benefits of having someone hit the skins and mic it up. I'm certainly not against that or even saying that samples replace that either. But visa versa. Your recordings don't replace what the sound of Ocean Way Drums has. It simply won't sound nearly the same! I DO completely disagree with your firm opinion that sampled drums can never sound as GOOD as real drums. To prove that at some point when I have a little more free time I will do some A/B tests with anyone up to the challenge to see if they can guess what is real and what is "memorex" It'd be a fun exercise anyway I think. But, depending on the track I think it is VERY much possible to make expressive well recorded samples sound as good or even better than the real thing.

Better than the real thing I say? How dare I? Haha. Well, what I mean is that with samples you have opportunities to actually improve the sound verses what you can do ergonomically when there's a drummer playing. For instance, in Ocean Way Drums one of the cooler more esoteric extra things in it are stereo snare mics (in addition to the traditional direct 57 separately) that are C12A's about a foot above the snare head. The reason Allen Sides wanted to do that is because from an engineering standpoint having a tube condenser mic as opposed to a dynamic, stereo as opposed to mono and a foot away as opposed to right on it where you get proximity effect is actually a more accurate and pleasing capture of the snare sound. Think about it. When you play a snare do you put your EAR right next to it? So this is a very natural sound more similar to the beautiful sounds the drummer hears. Well, you can do this with sampling hits but not in a session with someone playing because the mics would interfere with their playing. They'd hit the mics with the sticks because they'd be in the way of the drums. So, this was one of the reasons Allen Sides as an engineer really wanted to do this... so he could have drums recorded they way he wanted to hear them and not always have to COMPROMISE the miking because of where they fit ergonomically within the kit and drummer!

There are a number of other things you can do with samples such as have a kick and tom set with the snares off but the snare having them on. Often engineers find themselves doing everything they can to "clean up" the kit and this is the ideal. Of course, may people like myself also enjoy (even prefer) to have the kit rattling noises IN the sound. So that's there too for you.

The programming is pretty deep. You have snare on and snare off for both I-Map and V-Drum map (so keyboard or pads) and each one of those has 6 mix presets (plus an extra 6 for the C12A alternate mix snares). That's 19 kits X 4 (so, almost 80 mapped drum kits each with 6 mixes... a mountain of work all done for you ready to go!).

I agree that the music itself is more important than the sounds and you can bang on garbage cans and it is every bit as VALID art. I've sampled for guys like Tom Waits, T-Bone Burnette, Neil Finn...or even just brought my quirky old tape and optical keyboards to sessions with screwdriver in hand! I am not a hi fi snob at all. But I appreciate ALL kinds of sounds for ALL kinds of music! I think that if I ever want the highest of fi then Allen Sides would be the ideal person to get that from! He knows mics, acoustics and balance so well! His mic collection is like the DREAM selection of stereo matched pairs of rare vintage tube mics all kept in optimum condition!

I think the idea of having these different studio sounds and instrument flavors are powerful tools for production... and that's why I like to be a part of a project such as this. Products like this are not for everybody but they're for a LOT of musicians who are serious about their music and appreciate what can offer them sonically. It's only expensive to those that don't recognize the value of it or are not used to spending a higher amount for their software tools in my opinion. Take for example the review that started this thread. How many people use VSL Instruments? Quite a lot. So they're used to spending THOUSANDS for their sounds. Why do they do it? Well, because those are really good high end products! Sometimes if you want something special and it costs a little more you find a way to get it!

I say you but I don't really mean you. I know you're not likely to get it. But for others to read for discussion purposes... another point of view to consider.

[Squids]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Been done.....EZdrummer

Nashville EZX - recorded and mixed by Check Ainley at The Soup Kitchen in Nashville.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out other EZX's and Superior packs have been handled likewise. Certainly Toontrack have spared no expense on major studios and major engineers.
Not to mention Platinum (Johns and Baressi) and BFD2 (Air Studios).

I'm only trying to level the playing field here.
You talk about the expense and the effort as if it's something new. Superior 2 has been 3 years in the making at 3 major studios.
I say let the customer decide based on the features, kit lists and the sound.

I know that there are some other products (not many) that have mixes coming with the product that are done by top engineers in major studios. But no one has done it to this degree yet that I am aware of... correct me if I am wrong. Anyway, the mountain of work mixing I speak of that I was doubting anyone else has done is this:

19 kit multis with 6 separate mixes on each of the 9 drum elements in the kit. So that's 1,026 mixes right there. Now consider that you have snares on and snares off versions with different mixes for the kick and toms plus those mixes have to be replicated for the I-Map and V-Drums as well! It takes MONTHS in the major recording studio (not the sound developer's office studio) to do all of that! We could have easily saved a fortune and not done that part. But then the product wouldn't be as unique as it is. No other product has 19 kits that you can scroll through 6 mixes consistently from dry to ambient and on two different types of maps with either snares on or snares off. It's a ton of work to do it and it costs more because of that and many other valid reasons that people SHOULD know about.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Squids

I know that there are some other products (not many) that have mixes coming with the product that are done by top engineers in major studios. But no one has done it to this degree yet that I am aware of...

OK, I guess your original point was that no one had mixed in a 'major studio', but now it's 'to this degree'.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by drBill

Yeah, but that's not necessary. Not in the slightest IMO. For me it's about music first, then appropriate sound second. Music trumps sound - always. And when you're comparing a real breathing set of wood and vibrating heads compared to static samples, there's no contest. Yeah, the samples 'sound' great as far as samples go. But they still don't translate and "feel" like the real deal. No samples do. Not even when replacing a real performance played on real drums.

Same thing with sampled pianos. Play one note.....amazing sound. Fantastic. Then, try to play MUSIC with the samples. It always falls flat. Always. Not that it can't work out acceptably - it can. But make no mistake, it's not a replacement for the real deal.

I guess I'm lucky that I have a great room to record drums in and a great drummer. There's no samples and programming off a keyboard that can match that. Sometimes I'll use samples though, and if these were priced more realistically, I'd probably pick them up, but $900 is off the hook IMO.

PS - I find that getting good drums sounds is really easy if you have a good drummer. A decent room and decent mics help, but really, it's not rocket science. I'm not a world class engineer, but I'm always kind of amazed at how bad people can make drums sound sometimes.

Except that the appropriate sound is part of the music. I agree, music trumps sound anyday, which is why it doesn't matter whether it's a sample or a real drummer. It's how how it sounds in the end, and particularly if it realizes the artists intentions. I've used real drummers....and real good ones with major album credits, recorded in major studios, and ended up liking the programmed track better. Not always of course, but sometimes. That's why the music IS what comes first, not whether it's a sample or a live human. And it is also very program dependent. There are some things where a real drummer would make a huge difference in the feel, and other things where comparing the results would be like comparing the results to using Monster Cable or another well known brand

TH

[Animus]

Originally Posted by Squids

I know that there are some other products (not many) that have mixes coming with the product that are done by top engineers in major studios. But no one has done it to this degree yet that I am aware of... correct me if I am wrong. Anyway, the mountain of work mixing I speak of that I was doubting anyone else has done is this:

19 kit multis with 6 separate mixes on each of the 9 drum elements in the kit. So that's 1,026 mixes right there. Now consider that you have snares on and snares off versions with different mixes for the kick and toms plus those mixes have to be replicated for the I-Map and V-Drums as well! It takes MONTHS in the major recording studio (not the sound developer's office studio) to do all of that! We could have easily saved a fortune and not done that part. But then the product wouldn't be as unique as it is. No other product has 19 kits that you can scroll through 6 mixes consistently from dry to ambient and on two different types of maps with either snares on or snares off. It's a ton of work to do it and it costs more because of that and many other valid reasons that people SHOULD know about.

It's not 19 different recorded kits though right? Just 19 different combos of the same pool of drums. How many snares were recorded for example? 5? 8? I am still not clear on that.