Anyone done a PTLE vs Logic 8 SOUND comparison?

[snahster]

I know this is a much traveled path hear on Gearslutz, the debate between Logic 8 and Protools, but I have to ask this:

Has anyone done a scientific SOUND test between the two?

I'm talking about keeping all variables the same and opening and bouncing mixes in the two platforms. I ask because about a year ago I decided to do a comparison between Logic 7.1 and Protools 7.1. I used the same converters (an mbox) and opened up the same mix in both platforms and was shocked to actually hear the difference between the two. Levels were exactly the same, the exact same song, no plugins, and I could have picked out the PT session blind, it sounded THAT different to me. In short there seemed to be more definition between the instruments. Where Logic sounded kind of "collapsed" and two dimensional, PT sounded "wider", "deeper", and better defined. I know, very subjective qualities, but I could hear the difference quite starkly and it was enough to make me swear off mixing in Logic.

So I want to know your thoughts on this and particularly if anyone has conducted a side-by-side test like the one I did.

Thanks!

[Nordkrog]

Funny... I never did an A/B test myself, but friends of mine has done it with the opposite result. That Logic sounded better than PTHD.
Some people thinks that Logic 8 sounds better than Logic 7. I did the upgrade myself but didn't notice any diference in sound (maybe because of days between my last 7 session and new 8 session).
A thing that has a significant impact o the sound quality is of course which interface and converters you use. And here I see a big advantage usng Logic, since I can use inerfaceses that sonds far better that the digidesign-interfaces (maybe the best HD systems sounds greast, dunno, but I think my RME Fireface sounds way better than any Digidesign LE-nterfaces.
BTW I do have the old M-box, because I sometimes need Pro Tools to be compatible, but I think that interface sound just horrible. I think if someone wants t do an A/B between Logic 8 and PTLE you have to at least listen through decent converters (like the 003)

And me to I would like to hear a comparison!

I might do one my self!

[snahster]

I hear you on the old MBox. I have an original MBox and an MBox2 and the difference in sound quality is quite noticeable!

Yes, if you have time do an A/B for me. I'd love to hear your thoughts!

[Lagerfeldt]

I think lack of PDC is a problem in PT LE, one that actually affects phase and therefore sound. This might explain why a lot of people think Logic sounds better and has better bass response.

The plug-ins with Logic are generally better but that hasn't got anything to do with the engine as such.

That said both programs are nearly identical in sound quality. Logic has 64 bit processing "where needed" (to quote) and 32 bit float at the master, PT LE has 32 bit float at the master.

POW-r 1-3 is available in Logic Pro, I don't think that's an option in PE LE?

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

POW-r 1-3 is available in Logic Pro, I don't think that's an option in PE LE

PT LE includes POW-r and doesn't even charge extra for it...

[adzski]

I received a bunch of tracks recently from 5 different producers all using Logic - i can hear a horrible distorted/grainy sound common to all these tracks. Its a Logic thing......sounds like sh*t to me. But then, I've never been impressed with the way Logic sounds.

[snahster]

I thought I read a while back that PT uses 48-bit Linear processing for it's mix bus or something. Does this sound correct? I was under the impression that Logic used 32-bit floating point in 7.1. Now I've read that Logic 8 uses 64-bit "where needed" as well so I was wondering if this change had a positive effect on the sound. Anyone done the side by side test out there?

[SKyflash34]

Originally Posted by snahster

I thought I read a while back that PT uses 48-bit Linear processing for it's mix bus or something. Does this sound correct? I was under the impression that Logic used 32-bit floating point in 7.1. Now I've read that Logic 8 uses 64-bit "where needed" as well so I was wondering if this change had a positive effect on the sound. Anyone done the side by side test out there?

That 48 bit spec is for TDM systems that use the PT hardware to do the processing.
Pro Tools LE is a native system,and thus a different method of doing the math
which a host computer does the processing.

I believe Digi has a white paper on this on their site somewhere.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by adzski

I received a bunch of tracks recently from 5 different producers all using Logic - i can hear a horrible distorted/grainy sound common to all these tracks. Its a Logic thing......sounds like sh*t to me. But then, I've never been impressed with the way Logic sounds.

Can we hear this grainy sound of Logic ? Maybe post a clip .....

[Jess Jackson]

logic has always sounded shit in my opinion, i used to track my logic sessions into PT and mix from there.

i haven't used logic since 5.5 though so i would be very interested in lets say, a 16 channel summed mix in PT LE, then PT HD then the same summed mix in logic.

The only way to equally test this would be to use the same converters and record all channels one by one into each DAW then using the same mix configurations to sum them. then print the masters.

[SoundEng1]

Originally Posted by adzski

I received a bunch of tracks recently from 5 different producers all using Logic - i can hear a horrible distorted/grainy sound common to all these tracks. Its a Logic thing......sounds like sh*t to me. But then, I've never been impressed with the way Logic sounds.

Bad Engineering makes any DAW platform or Tape sound bad.

[snahster]

Yes, I go back to the 4.0 days with Logic but the test I did was on 7.1...still would love to hear a test between PTLE and Logic 8.

Yes, I'd like to hear the grainy sound as well...

Je55, yes, that is precisely the test I had in mind. But I think you could still tell something about the summing by simply opening the same tracks in each program and bouncing down. This is how I made my initial discovery.

It does appear that the whole 48-bit thing is only a TDM and HD thing so I stand corrected. I read it in the white pages.

So now I want to hear this test more than ever...I'm questioning what I heard last year...was I just fooling myself? I've been thinking it was due to the different ways that the programs dealt with the audio (the 48-bit linear verses the 32-bit floating).

More thoughts?

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by adzski

I received a bunch of tracks recently from 5 different producers all using Logic - i can hear a horrible distorted/grainy sound common to all these tracks. Its a Logic thing......sounds like sh*t to me. But then, I've never been impressed with the way Logic sounds.

Huh... Logic sounds like sh*t. Grainy. Distorted. So, if I stuck two $10,000 mics in front of the BSO in symphony hall, placed perfectly, thru great mic pres and really high end A/D converters, with a great clock, and with properly set levels and recorded it into Logic, logic would render it sh*t? The DAW has THAT big an impact on the sound? Cool to know. What DAW does sound good? How do they sound different? I'd love for you to 'splain it to us.

[Rufuss Sewell]

When comparing mixes be sure the pan laws are the same. PT 7 and Logic 7 had different default settings. Therefore a mix on one wouldn't translate to the other. And thus, if the song was mixed in Logic and flown into PT it would sound better in Logic... and the other way around.

[adzski]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Huh... Logic sounds like sh*t. Grainy. Distorted. So, if I stuck two $10,000 mics in front of the BSO in symphony hall, placed perfectly, thru great mic pres and really high end A/D converters, with a great clock, and with properly set levels and recorded it into Logic, logic would render it sh*t? The DAW has THAT big an impact on the sound? Cool to know. What DAW does sound good? How do they sound different? I'd love for you to 'splain it to us.

Well i'm open-minded enough to say that under certain circumstances Logic will sound "clean". Perhaps all 5 of these guys/production teams have the same awful workflow?
These werent unkown producers BTW - and i cant post clips of these tracks.

This subject has been battered to death already, and i'm not gonna get back into it - all i can say is that to me DAWs do sound different at mixdown, and seemingly AFA Logic is concerned, even at track level. Some people agree, some dont - whatever!

Seqouia/Samplitude sound best to me, and thats what i use for the most part.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by adzski

Well i'm open-minded enough to say that under certain circumstances Logic will sound "clean". Perhaps all 5 of these guys/production teams have the same awful workflow?
These werent unkown producers BTW - and i cant post clips of these tracks.

This subject has been battered to death already, and i'm not gonna get back into it - all i can say is that to me DAWs do sound different at mixdown, and seemingly AFA Logic is concerned, even at track level. Some people agree, some dont - whatever!

Seqouia/Samplitude sound best to me, and thats what i use for the most part.

So you are saying you can make Logic 'clean' only under certain circumstances ? But other DAWS do not need those certain circumstances cause they are already 'clean' ?

[Lagerfeldt]

Yeah, you can't really say it's a matter of opinion or "whatever" - these things can be (and have been) tested.

[trakk]

Don't feed the troll.

[adzski]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

So you are saying you can make Logic 'clean' only under certain circumstances ? But other DAWS do not need those certain circumstances cause they are already 'clean' ?

No. Thats not what i said.

I know this much - there is some pattern/common denominator in the way many well-respected people work, which produces consistently under-par sounding mixes and results in Logic. Why dont you guys figure it out?

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by adzski

I know this much - there is some pattern/common denominator in the way many well-respected people work, which produces consistently under-par sounding mixes and results in Logic.

Could it be they're all into the in-your-face gnarly sound, recording everything through overdriven transformers? This seems to be a popular technique right now - 'warming up' the digital medium with Distressors and P1's and GR's.

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by adzski

No. Thats not what i said.

I know this much - there is some pattern/common denominator in the way many well-respected people work, which produces consistently under-par sounding mixes and results in Logic. Why dont you guys figure it out?

Isn't that subjective?

[illynoise]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Yeah, you can't really say it's a matter of opinion or "whatever" - these things can be (and have been) tested.

Lagerfeldt, first off I really respect your opinion and I know you know your stuff.

But comparing protools LE's sound and Logic's sound. There IS a difference. I've gotten many sessions from HD systems and I can tell you there IS a difference on those especially with bass. I can get so much more low frequency out of Logic than a PT mix, recording in with no plugs. I've A/B'd on a Digi 002 and a Motu 828. There is no comparison Even when I had a Korg 1212 i/o those mixes and recordings sounded "fuller".

To me the only way that I can describe it, is PT's engine is thinner, like something you hear on the radio. Logic's sound is more up front and louder. Call me crazy, but I've been saying this for 9 years! Samplitude is the only thing that sounds comparable. And remember Magix had the same program as logic Midi-wise.

[SoundEng1]

Originally Posted by illynoise

Lagerfeldt, first off I really respect your opinion and I know you know your stuff.

But comparing protools LE's sound and Logic's sound. There IS a difference. I've gotten many sessions from HD systems and I can tell you there IS a difference on those especially with bass. I can get so much more low frequency out of Logic than a PT mix, recording in with no plugs. I've A/B'd on a Digi 002 and a Motu 828. There is no comparison Even when I had a Korg 1212 i/o those mixes and recordings sounded "fuller".

To me the only way that I can describe it, is PT's engine is thinner, like something you hear on the radio. Logic's sound is more up front and louder. Call me crazy, but I've been saying this for 9 years! Samplitude is the only thing that sounds comparable. And remember Magix had the same program as logic Midi-wise.

Hi Illynoise,
I definitely agree with you, ive been using PT since version 4 and there is something in the midrange in PT that makes things sound thin with kick drums and bass, where in Logic i dont loose that, i think Logic sounds great, ive been shifting more to it. my last 2 Logic mixes were awesome, very happy with this app soundwise.

[illynoise]

It could be that the 002 interface just isn't that good, and will make you mix bad! lol

[Rev. Robb]

As a new Logic 8 user and a long time PTLE user I feel that Logic sounds better and I am able to get my mixes to come together much more quickly in Logic. I cannot explain this nor will I even try but this is truly how I feel.

Keep in mind I came to this conclusion using the same DA converter, same monitors, same plugins, same room, etc.

[jmarkham]

I don't know of a scientific study or statistically accurate survey. But, I've
always felt the operator was a more significant factor in the overall
result ;-)

jeff

[pipelineaudio]

There was a scientific test, more than one, and some were posted on here at GS as well.

Here's one, don't take my word for it grab it yourself A REAL DAW summing test - Cockos Confederated Forums

If signals are kept in the legal range PTHD, PTLE and Logic 8 all summ the Same

Dead nuts null

Once you move faders, Logic's faders are labelled incorrectly, so you can end up with a level SLIGHTLY

and I mean SLIGHTLY different in level than the same advertised gain change in PT. This difference is so slight that I shouldnt bother saying it, but just to be thorough, there you go.

I don't know the PT buss system for sure so MAYBE you get into trouble at ins and outs (I heard the plugin I/O was 24 bit...I do not know this for a fact). Logic is probably at 32 bit I/O for plugins and busses and stuff, maybe 64. Will that make much difference? I doublt it, but if you want to cram a +8zillion dB signal into a plugin for some insane reason, then apps like REAPER with a 64 bit setup might be the answer, but I DOUBT there is any ABXable difference even at the plugin stage.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by adzski

No. Thats not what i said.

I know this much - there is some pattern/common denominator in the way many well-respected people work, which produces consistently under-par sounding mixes and results in Logic. Why dont you guys figure it out?

Lot's of people will swear a lot of things till they are blue in the face for whatever reason or agenda, doesn't make it correct nor is it a matter of opinion, as Lagerfeldt said these things can and have been tested .....

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Lot's of people will swear a lot of things till they are blue in the face for whatever reason or agenda, doesn't make it correct nor is it a matter of opinion, as Lagerfeldt said these things can and have been tested .....

Here's my opinion....Logic does sound better than Pro Tools period. But I also know that there are tons of guys who do great mixes in pro tools so......make what you got work. Peace.

Nick

[KingUgly]

I'm finishing an album that is half Logic/half Pro Tools (been using TDM/LE for 10 years), and I'm currently in DAW transition hell.

The artist has already commented, "Why does such and such song sound so much better?" (each time, the Logic track). Now why did he have to go and say that? I heard it; hoped he wouldn't. Is it that obvious? Yes. And going back to PT would be so much easier. Take out a loan and get a TDM rig for the home. But, undeniably, Logic sounds fantastic. I am still so ingrained with Pro Tools, the crack cocaine of DAW software. Logic's workflow is like teaching an old dog new tricks, but it's worth it. Has to be, if it's really going to be "about the music."