Melodyne vs. PT Elastic/Beat Detective for Dums

[NoizyNinja]

I have Melodyne (standalone and plugin) and I also have PT with Elastic and Beat Detective. I use Melodyne mostly to fix vocal stuff but I do use it to fix drum timing and occaisionally to change tempo's of drum performances. It's good but leaves some artifacts and sometimes needs tweaking. Cahnges the quality of the audio too.

I mostly use Logic so I'm not very good at using PT (I use PT to export other people's sessions as OMF files to mix in Logic). If anyone has used both Melodyne and PT's Elastic and/or Beat Detective I'd like to hear their opinion. I saw the demo of Elastic at NAMM and was very impressed but should I spend time figuring out PT to fix and change the tempo of drum tracks? Is it sonically better for this purpose than Melodyne?

[Rufuss Sewell]

Melodyne doesn't maintain the phase relationship of multi-tracked drums so it's basically useless for that application. PT 7.4 on the other hand is great. No comparison.

[Holly]

I still prefer to edit drums with Beat Detective (or even manually).

Elastic Time doesn't work for me. Well, it works on some material, on some it doesn't. And even Digidesign doesn't seem to be happy with the way it works. What else could be the reason, they still didn't upload the "Elastic Time on Multitrack Drums" video to their website? Phil Jackson announced it in his last video but it never showed up on their page.

Meldoyne I only use for voclas. Like Rufuss said, with drums there would be phase issues, as the tracks can't be grouped.

[Sonic Nomad]

I've had some luck with Elastic on drums. Suppose it would be greaqt though when really works proper.

[H-Rezz]

I do all my Beat Detective stuff in Logic8, which it does a great job and has an easier procedure than in Logic 7 ! Changing the tempo is a different story this is where something like Elastic Audio would be great if it can keep the phase correlation in tact between all the elements ......

[Stiff]

Elastic time works great here for the most time. If you start doing stuff with acoustic guitars and things it can sometimes come out sounding pretty bad, but for drums it's awesome. With that said, I use Beat Detective as well. Really depends on the situation.

[NoizyNinja]

Thanks for all the replies. I actually export the drum tracks as mono files into the Melodyne standalone program and that seems to keep phase issues to a minimum but like I said before there are artifacts.

I'm going to start messing with PT for this though.

[Farout]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

I do all my Beat Detective stuff in Logic8, which it does a great job and has an easier procedure than in Logic 7 ! Changing the tempo is a different story this is where something like Elastic Audio would be great if it can keep the phase correlation in tact between all the elements ......

Could you elablorate, please?
You mention that you do all of your BD stuff in L8 ... could you explain your process, please?
Thanks

[NoizyNinja]

Love to hear that too...

[custom24]

yeah, definitely explain please sir.

[H-Rezz]

Instead of me posting my BD method in Logic i found a post on another forum of a dude that pretty much does it the same way ......hope he doesn't mind me reposting and saving some time ...

Logic Pro Help :: View topic - Tab to Transient Like Operations in Logic 8

Cheers

[dBMusic]

Had given up on Protools some 3 years ago, and moved on to Nuendo, cause by and large it works better for me.
Particularly editing auf audio I tend to be faster. AND being able to do orchestral scores within the same environment is a strong argument.
But ever since I've come across Elastic Audio in 7.4 I'm not so sure anymore.
In short Elastic works great for me, as a matter of fact it sounds better to my ears than Beat Detective, which I've never found very musical, neither in sound nor groovewise.
I'll give you, that Elastic will always "cloud" the sound slightly, but I feel that I gain more than I loose.
When it comes to manual editing however, Nuendo rocks (and sounds clearer to start with to my ears).
Melodyne I will only ever use for pitching vocals, and only if I'm in a hurry.
If I have time I'll do it manually within Nuendo - again, sounds better to my ears.
But for naked speed and possibilities, Melodyne rulez for me too, no question.
dB

[hibakusha]

Originally Posted by dBMusic

In short Elastic works great for me, as a matter of fact it sounds better to my ears than Beat Detective, which I've never found very musical, neither in sound nor groovewise.
dB

Rubbish. Elastic audio and Beat Detective use the same algorithms, it's merely the stretching of audio that is different.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by hibakusha

Rubbish. Elastic audio and Beat Detective use the same algorithms, it's merely the stretching of audio that is different.

huh?

they only use the same algorithms as far as beat detection goes but BD does NOT stretch audio, it only extends or shortens regions and cross fades them

EA on the other does time stretch/compress

this is my experience and is why you can get similar results in logic to BD though it's a longer process

[hibakusha]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

huh?

they only use the same algorithms as far as beat detection goes but BD does NOT stretch audio, it only extends or shortens regions and cross fades them

EA on the other does time stretch/compress

this is my experience and is why you can get similar results in logic to BD though it's a longer process

Yes, EA stretches and BD doesn't. But the options for timing are the same, be it standard, Logic 8D, etc etc etc. So I don't see how EA can sound better for timing than BD (as the orginal poster implied) when the transients are placed in the same place for both.

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by dBMusic

Had given up on Protools some 3 years ago, and moved on to Nuendo, cause by and large it works better for me.
Particularly editing auf audio I tend to be faster. AND being able to do orchestral scores within the same environment is a strong argument.
But ever since I've come across Elastic Audio in 7.4 I'm not so sure anymore.
In short Elastic works great for me, as a matter of fact it sounds better to my ears than Beat Detective, which I've never found very musical, neither in sound nor groovewise.
I'll give you, that Elastic will always "cloud" the sound slightly, but I feel that I gain more than I loose.
When it comes to manual editing however, Nuendo rocks (and sounds clearer to start with to my ears).
Melodyne I will only ever use for pitching vocals, and only if I'm in a hurry.
If I have time I'll do it manually within Nuendo - again, sounds better to my ears.
But for naked speed and possibilities, Melodyne rulez for me too, no question.
dB

I don't get what you're saying. Beat Detective doesn't do anything to the audio so how does EA sound better? I don't think EA works very well for multitrack drums and why would it? It's beyond me why someone would choose EA over BD for correcting drums. BD works pretty frickin well.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by JPZ

I don't get what you're saying. Beat Detective doesn't do anything to the audio so how does EA sound better? I don't think EA works very well for multitrack drums and why would it? It's beyond me why someone would choose EA over BD for correcting drums. BD works pretty frickin well.

BD works fine, until the drummer starts playing fast hihats, or ghost snare notes.....then cutting the hats in time results in strange snare tones (or can do anyways).

Both are valid techniques. I find EA slightly quicker. And done right, it works fine for drums (and even better for mono sources - I don't want to edit piano or acoustic guitar without it ever! bass it's very useful for too).

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

BD works fine, until the drummer starts playing fast hihats, or ghost snare notes.....then cutting the hats in time results in strange snare tones (or can do anyways).

Both are valid techniques. I find EA slightly quicker. And done right, it works fine for drums (and even better for mono sources - I don't want to edit piano or acoustic guitar without it ever! bass it's very useful for too).

I've used BD for the most insane drum editing I can imagine (not because I wanted to but purely because I had no other choice) complete with having to do separate passes to get ghost notes and groups within groups to deal with drummers that flop around on the kick etc... There's really nothing I haven't been able to accomplish unless the drummer is not actually hitting something which then requires other techniques.

I mean I guess as some point it's like why bother? Go use a drum machine or have the poor guy (or someone who's capable) play it again or play something you want. Turd polishing has reached unbelievable heights nowadays. On the other hand, EA is timestretching/compressing and thus screwing with the audio and defeats the purpose of capturing the performance with all the gear that I prefer to use on drums

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

BD works fine, until the drummer starts playing fast hihats, or ghost snare notes.....then cutting the hats in time results in strange snare tones (or can do anyways).

Both are valid techniques. I find EA slightly quicker. And done right, it works fine for drums (and even better for mono sources - I don't want to edit piano or acoustic guitar without it ever! bass it's very useful for too).

I've used BD for the most insane drum editing I can imagine (not because I wanted to but purely because I had no other choice) complete with having to do separate passes to get ghost notes and groups within groups to deal with drummers that flop around on the kick etc... There's really nothing I haven't been able to accomplish unless the drummer is not actually hitting something which then requires other techniques.

I mean I guess as some point it's like why bother? Go use a drum machine or have the poor guy (or someone who's capable) play it again or play something you want. Turd polishing has reached unbelievable heights nowadays. On the other hand, EA is timestretching/compressing and thus screwing with the audio and defeats the purpose of capturing the performance with all the gear that I prefer to use on drums

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by JPZ

I've used BD for the most insane drum editing I can imagine (not because I wanted to but purely because I had no other choice) complete with having to do separate passes to get ghost notes and groups within groups to deal with drummers that flop around on the kick etc... There's really nothing I haven't been able to accomplish unless the drummer is not actually hitting something which then requires other techniques.

I mean I guess as some point it's like why bother? Go use a drum machine or have the poor guy (or someone who's capable) play it again or play something you want. Turd polishing has reached unbelievable heights nowadays. On the other hand, EA is timestretching/compressing and thus screwing with the audio and defeats the purpose of capturing the performance with all the gear that I prefer to use on drums

Everything and anything is possible - it's just some ways are easier than others.

They both have their place - and to be honest - the timestretching when done properly (and it's not the quick fix some think) is inaudible. The rhythmic mode preserves the transient and stretches the tail - so yes, it changes the audio but then so does extending a region back and crossfading, which is what you do in BD.

But I'm totally in agreement regarding the turd polishing..all these tools should be used for minute adjustments eg fitting drummers to loops or loops to drummers, not to make a monkey drummer sound like the the love child of Peart and buddy rich.