iMac / MB / MBP with Agere firewire chipsets can be troublesome (okt 07 till feb 08)

[Just Dan]

Sure enough, a day or two after I placed an order for a MacBook, I hear about the switch to the Agere firewire chips and how people are having all kinds of problems with their FW interfaces from some makers. I haven't heard anything about Metric Halo (I have an ULN-2).

But I'm wondering if I should not even bother opening up the MacBook when I get it and return it and try to find a previous model instead. I have a feeling the prices for previous model MBs and MBPs are going to start to go up if Apple stays with the Agere.

[Geert van den Berg]

Can you link to any website where people having all kinds of problems?

I have not read about it yet, but have also been busy and haven't been checking in on the 'regular' mac sites lately.

[dewey decibel]

Well, the thing is there is the restocking fee, I think it's either 10 or 15%. But I just picked up a refurb and I couldn't be happier. It's a 2.0 C2D, with a superdrive and 120GB HD. I bought it about two weeks after the Santa Rosa Macbooks came out, and I was really considering going that route but people were reporting issues with the keyboard, display, etc and I realized the upgrades weren't going to benefit me that much and I should save some $$$ getting the refurb. And then I heard about the firewire chips.

So I would say if you didn't buy already to go for a refurb, but since you did I'd say just keep it. Even though the firewire chip set is a big deal to us I don't think it is for 90% of Macbook owners, and the newest version will always have the better resale. And you maybe totally cool with your setup.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by dewey decibel

I bought it about two weeks after the Santa Rosa Macbooks came out.

I have a Santa Rosa MBP, and I don't have any issues. Not with firewire drives, nor with my RME Fireface.

[Just Dan]

That's good to hear. I've seen a few posts on here and RME and someone else (I can't recall who, and have to get going so can't look up now) were claiming incompatibility with Agere firewire chipsets for the moment.

When you have time do a Google search for Macbook Agere. Even here on Gearslutz just the word Agere will come up with a few threads.

But I'm glad to hear it's not as big of a problem as I was fearing it might be.

Daniel

[feedback]

here's a quote from the rme forum:

Hello,

as already stated in the thread 'Workaround for Fireface iMac Problem'

RME User Forum / Workaround for Fireface/iMac problem

there is a new FW 800 chip on the market from Agere, which seems to be incompatible (not only) to RMEs FireWire audio, and requires workarounds for successful operation.

The reason Apple used this chip instead of the former TI solution is easy to find: half the price and a lot smaller. So it is not astonishing that this chip now also begins to show up on Windows computers. We got our hands on a PCIe FireWire 800 card from Unibrain using this chip, and found the exact (!) same problems under Windows as under Mac OS X using this card.

Our examination of the problem showed that the Agere chip causes the Firefaces to issue a FireWire bus reset shortly after start of data transmission (isochronous mode). We tried a Motu 828 for comparison and found this to be affected as well (everything seemed to work, but playback did not start).

Therefore we have to declare this chip and all related products as incompatible, and expect a fix (if any) from Agere's side, by either firmware or driver updates.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

and the presonus forum

1. Presonus is going to ship new Leopard drivers that will make my FS work with my new Macbook.

If the Agere Chipset that Apple is now using is indeed the cause of the issues you are having, there is no driver that will correct a hardware compatibility issue with that Firewire Chipset. I believe Agere/LSI would be the only one who could possibly correct it.

2. I'm going to buy a new audio interface, because the FS isn't faithful to the IEEE 1394 protocol and I can expect it to give me problems with my Macbook, and other computers I might use it with.

All Firewire interface companies will suggest (and some will even require) the use of certain Firewire chipsets. RME does, MOTU does, and so do many of the other interface companies. It's like Engine companies requiring specific oil for certain engine models. If you use the wrong oil, the engine could perform under spec, and may not even work at all.

3. I'm going to buy a new computer, because my Macbook isn't faithful to the IEEE 1394 protocol and I can expect it to give me problems with my FS, and other interfaces I might use it with.

It's a shame that Apple is trying to cut costs with the Macbooks. Many people have relied on those laptops for audio recording for years. We're still trying to confirm the issues with Agere chipset, as it doesn't always affect the interfaces and it can be random.
Hopefully Apple will give our developers more insight into the situation with those chipsets. Until then, I'd watch out for the Agere firewire connections.
__________________
Ben Mullens
Presonus Technical Support
bmullens@presonus.com

and from metric halo on the sonic mailing list

As far as the Agere chipset goes, we have had no reported problems
with any specific model of the Mac except the (quite old at this
point) Mirror Drive Door G4 tower (first gen FW800 machine). The
motherboard FW on that specific model is incompatible with the MIO,
and using the MIO on that machine will require the use of a FW PCI card.

Apple has been using the Agere chipset for some time (I'm pretty sure
that it has been in use in the Mac since the initial Intel iMac came
out), and we have not seen any problems with it.

One of the guys in tech support here just got a brand spanking new
MBP, and AFAIK he has not had any problems with the MIO. I'll double
check with him, and if anything comes up, I'll let you folks know...

Best regards,

B.J. Buchalter
Metric Halo
Metric Halo

********************************************* *

[Geert van den Berg]

I took the liberty to rename the thread title and I have sticked the thread to the top, as I think this is quite important.

I have also done a google search and judging by the data you provided, it's a real problem.

I wouldn't buy any such machine, without having it tried in the store with the devices that you want to use (audio interfaces / harddrives). If it doesn't work in the store, I am sure a report to Apple will happen quickly, they don't want to lose sales!

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by Just Dan

But I'm wondering if I should not even bother opening up the MacBook when I get it and return it and try to find a previous model instead.

I think you're right about that.

[HughH]

Hello,
Yes, it's a serious problem. RME, Motu, Presonus, M-audio, have all reported problems on their forums. RME, who tends to be reasonably thorough (and occasionally arrogant) in their engineering, has done extensive testing to determine many of problems.
If you widen your search on the Apple forums to firewire issues in general, the number of alum iMacs and new MBPs with firewire access problems is extensive. This includes Apple's Firewire Target Disk Mode coupled with the Migration Assistant, such a cool utility when you're purchasing a new computer.
The workarounds on the RME and Motu forums of putting a hard drive in between the computer and interface are only partially effective - many users report this does not work. The other solution of only using the fw800 port, with adaptors as needed, also is not universally effective. And just to confuse it further, some users report everything is fine.
It does not appear to be software related due to extensive testing by RME. They also report that the few Windoze firewire cards that are using the chip have the exact same problems.
Apple, to my knowledge, has not issued any statements on the matter yet. They haven't even issued a "we know, we're looking into it" statement yet, probably because it requires either a firmware update to the Agere chip itself (only from Agere) or a new chip (logic board swap).
I visited my local Apple Store to bring the matter again to their attention. Predictably they were not aware of it, but one audio specialist with a local studio indeed was aware of it, had brought it to the attention and demonstration of some local Logic beta testers, and feels some movement is happening.
And finally, my year-end tax purchases have been massively messed up by the inability to buy new machines.

We'll see what the future brings, but Apple has really dropped the ball on this with some of their most dedicated and long-standing customers, audio folks.

H

[Bluemoa]

Desktop Mac Pro's still have TI chipsets?

[dewey decibel]

Ahhhh, that's where this thead went.

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

I have a Santa Rosa MBP, and I don't have any issues. Not with firewire drives, nor with my RME Fireface.

Yeah, the SR Macbooks just came out this month. You probably have an older SR MBPro.

As I said my descision to go with an older model didn't have anything to do with the firewire chips, it was simply because I didn't feel the need to spend the money on the upgraded models (I'm cheap). But after reading about all these issues I'm pretty happy I went with the refurbed.

[celticrogues]

Originally Posted by HughH

Hello,
Yes, it's a serious problem. RME, Motu, Presonus, M-audio, have all reported problems on their forums.
H

Could you post a link to the M-audio forums where you found the problems reported? So far I hadn't heard of any problems with M-audio devices and was almost beginning to hope that they weren't affected...

Thanks!!
-Mike

[vixapphire]

would be nice to hear from apple about these hardware issues and their plans to address them. perhaps one of the apple/logic certified guru/evangelists on this forum can place the question before the proper "authority" and help shed some light on this.

at a minimum, it would be great to know which brands (if not all) of firewire interfaces are experiencing the problems and which are not affected (if any).

[Melgueil]

This is most definately known and identified problem (see the Support / Discussions area of Apple's own site). In fact this has caused me to put the brakes on a new purchase. My solution might in the end be to go with a MacBook Pro and via the express34 slot "install" the chipset of my choosing. However this option of course does not exist on the iMac platform.

A non-pro consumer machine - ok I get it. But c'mon when Apple attaches "Pro" to the label - that is what customers expect. BTW - much of the whining on the apple site is not related to audio interfaces but the lack of compatibility with FW drives. It is causing an uproar. Folks looking to buy refurb or back-rev machines just to get around this ?. That is NOT a recipe for increasing sales of their new high end machines, I would think.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Melgueil

when Apple attaches "Pro" to the label - that is what customers expect..

My experience has been that anytime some manufacturer attaches the word "pro" to something, it is usually being misrepresented as having much better quality than it really has.

The term has become all but meaningless.

[aquafreak]

Originally Posted by Melgueil

In fact this has caused me to put the brakes on a new purchase.

same here. had planned on getting a brand spankin new macbook pro and using an ultralite until i learned this.

[celticrogues]

Originally Posted by aquafreak

same here. had planned on getting a brand spankin new macbook pro and using an ultralite until i learned this.

Me too - I have been saving up and was ready to buy a new MBP until I saw this. I sure hope someone from Apple is reading this...
-MIke

[Dubnick]

First Apple's own AppleFWAudio driver's causing problems with various interfaces, now they switch to a problematic firewire chipset? Jesus - WTF? Are they trying to lose audio users? The consistency of the firewire chipset is one of the things that make Macs more a more appealing choice to audio users than their off-the-shelf PC counterparts. Man, this is a bummer. Hope they don't switch the chipset on the MacPros. I'm still on a G5 - I hope this gets straightened out before I have to make the move to an IntelMac.

[celticrogues]

I suggest everybody go here and let Apple know we are not happy about this:

Apple - MacBook Pro - Feedback

Cheers!
-Mike

[Gone Fission]

How does the chipset issue effect desktop boxes? Which of those are still TI?

Bear

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by celticrogues

I suggest everybody go here and let Apple know we are not happy about this:

Apple - MacBook Pro - Feedback

Cheers!
-Mike

done!

[aquafreak]

data transmission complete!

[hanisch]

complained about it.

thanks for the helpful link!

Let's hope they'll change things with the new edition of the MacBook Pro.

bye bye
love
michael

[vixapphire]

How likely/possible is it that Apple will be able to address this issue and patch it in the next OS update, for instance? Or is this something they're just going to let lie, with the poor schlubs who bought these non-TI-outfitted MBP's basically screwed/severely limited in options when it comes to firewire audio?

I was hoping to pick up one of the current line used or on clearance if/when a new updated model is announced in the next few weeks. now i'm on pause with this entire idea (and not happily so).

It doesn't seem like Apple to leave a bunch of users in the lurch like that, but then stranger things have happened.

vic

[Dubnick]

Hey guys, I decided to write a quick email to appleinsider.com to ask them to give some coverage to this issue above and beyond threads like these on audio-related forums. My hope is that, since Apple pays at least enough attention to Mac news and rumor sites to have sued one (thinksecret.com), that if the story gets some coverage on sites like appleinsider, macrumors and thinksecret, maybe they'll be embarassed enough to address it. So I emailed appleinsider.com - if any of you could email thinksecret.com and macrumors.com and/or any other Mac related news sites, I know I'd appreciate it. If the MacPros start getting these chipsets and there is no fix, it throws a real monkeywrench into my Mac use in the future and I'm sure the same is true for many of you. Let's get this story out there!

[LLSIII]

I noticed on RME's website that they (users and RME) are basically advocating two approaches to using a new mac:

1. Buy an express card that has the TI chipset (!) if using the MBP
2. Use the FW800 port if using their FF800 with the imac.

Pretty obvious that the first solution would work, but have enough users declared option #2 to be working for them? I ask because I have a FF800, and I was just getting ready to upgrade from my old dual processor G4 to a new Imac, when all this came about. So, just sticking with FW800 is ok? Doesn't seem that it would to me, considering that I've heard it is all one channel, anyway. Anyone having luck with that combo?

Question: How is the Duet working with the new macs? Or does it care about the new FW chipset?

And I went to the apple website posted just earlier and let them know of my concerns! Geez, all ready to spend some $$$$, and now this!

[lowkey]

ive had no problems at all with my motu ultralite and a MacbookPro2.2gHz

[aquafreak]

lowkey - really? do you know if you have an agere chipset in it? (i.e. did u buy post-october?)

[kingofswing]

Does anybody know if the RME Fireface 800 works on the newer Mac Pro towers using the FW800 port.

Why APPLE chose a 'Cheaper' FW option on premium Macs is beyond me...

I say on APPLE

Fix this Apple...fix it.

[rockinrocker]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

Does anybody know if the RME Fireface 800 works on the newer Mac Pro towers using the FW800 port.

i got mine thursday, and i've only used the 800 with my external HDD (w/ an adaptor) but my echo firewire 12 is working fine with the 400......

Originally Posted by kingofswing

Why APPLE chose a 'Cheaper' FW option on premium Macs is beyond me...

isn't that just in the portables?