Charles Dye - McDSP Analog Channel Alternative

[Pronecobra]

I was watching the Charles Dye MILAR tutorial the other day. Charles Dye explains how he places the McDSP Analog Channel using AC1/AC2 (I can't remember which exactly) on his mix bus in order to emulate mixing on a "real" console, like an SSL or Neve. He puts it on right away and mixes through it, suggesting that he mixes differently when it is on from the beginning.

I want to try this. However, I use Nuendo and have a fully native VST system.
What would be a good native VST alternative to using the McDSP Analog Channel. I have tried the PSPaudioware Mix Saturator from their Mix Bundle.

However, it emulates tape saturation rather than solid state analog cirtuitry.

Any ideas would be greatly appeciated. I have been trying really hard to find a good system for making my digital recordings sound like analog.

P.Cobra

[redroom]

URS channel strip Pro
Tritone Colortone Pro

[Stiff]

Strip Pro is probably your best bet. You could mix through the compressor there as well if that's your cup of tea... And use the EQ like Charles does on MiLaR if you want to be hardcore-Charles (wow, does that sound weird or what? )

[Charles Dye]

Originally Posted by Stiff

Strip Pro is probably your best bet. You could mix through the compressor there as well if that's your cup of tea... And use the EQ like Charles does on MiLaR if you want to be hardcore-Charles (wow, does that sound weird or what? )

It sounds even weirder considering your screen name...


And yeah... URS CSP rocks big time. I'm actually using it right now for my 2-buss saturation. Been using Iron A + Iron B a lot. Love that plug.

[spinedoc]

Hmm, how does the CSP do the dual mono thing on a daw like sonar?

[shadyru]

Charles any chance you can share the settings you start out with when using Pro? Are you using two csp's in a row?

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by Charles Dye

It sounds even weirder considering your screen name...

I know you like it

[Charles Dye]

Settings... I just use one CSP on the 2 buss + for the solid-state saturation sound I use Iron A or Iron B with saturation setting @ 100%. When I started using CSP, the plug was beta + didn't have the 1951, 1967, 1970, 1972 + 1980 input settings. I haven't tried those yet.


Yo stiffman, ur nutz...

[shadyru]

So you are not using the compressor at all on csp? Just the iron a or iron b and everything else disabled? Thanks

[Charles Dye]

Oh... I use the compressor on CSP ALL the time. On all instrument types. Love it. Incredibly flexible. Killer sound.

But recently I have not been using ANY compression on my mix buss, so that's why I've only been using CSP for mix buss saturation.

I'm not using any other compressor on the mix buss either.

[spinedoc]

Charles,
I buy your dvds and you tell me to use mix bus compression.

Now you have lied to me.

I want my money back.

[Mason]

Thats interesting Charles. What has led you to not using compression on the 2-buss?

[Charles Dye]

Here's my view on buss compression...


Compressing the Stereo Mix Buss

There are essentially 3 ways to use buss compression on your mix.

1. Put it on near the end of the mix.
2. Put it on from the beginning of the mix.
3. Don't put it on @ all.

Near the End of the Mix

The first is an approach I used for a number of years. When I insert a compressor near the end of a mix, I will first work to make my mix sound as big and powerful as possible without it, and then once I put it in, at about 4/5's of the way through, the mix will become even bigger. I usually use a softer less aggressive style of compression this way, because the individual tracks might have a bit more compression on them.

From the Beginning of the Mix

The second approach is to insert the compressor at the beginning and mix into it. It can have a number of advantages over placing the compressor on near the end. I tried mixing through a compressor when I was a younger engineer, but @ the time I wasn't very satisfied with the results. So, a few years ago I tried it again, + this time I decided to stick with it for awhile to really get a handle on it. And after a few mixes I really liked both the sound + the process of mixing thru a compressor.

If you're used to mixing without a compressor across the buss it takes some getting used to. The dynamics of the mix don't react the way you would normally expect them to, so you can't just try it once. You need to do a number of mixes, so you can familiarize yourself with this new limited dynamic response.

I've found it has a few advantages. One, it helps bring the mix together much quicker. Two, I find myself not needing as much compression on individual tracks to get the sound I want. Three, the mix requires less automation to bring out all the elements. Four, and most of all, mixing though a compressor changes the way I approach a mix. I'm able to get a very big + powerful sound very quickly with just the kick, snare, bass + hat. Then I just begin to fill the other instruments in around them.

To establish my starting levels for the mix, I first set my kick + snare level peaking around -10 dB on my DAW's stereo buss meters without the compressor, but from that point on the compressors goes in + never comes out. I generally use a Ratio = 2:1, Attack = 4-10 ms, Release = approx. 250-300 ms (set about to 8th note). I've used many different plugz for this, including RenComp, Impact, + Waves SSL, but I'm currently using URS Channel Strip Pro.

With most of the music I've been mixing lately (rock or other aggressive styles) 4 dB of compression has been sounding really good. It may sound like a lot, previously when placing the compressor over buss towards the end I would hit it only 2 to 2.5 dB, but I also had more compression on the individual tracks. Since I now use less individual compression, it probably works out to about the same amount of overall, just a different way to apply it.

Mixing this way gives me a sound that's very different than the more controlled sound of individual compression, a lot of automation, and light compression on the bus. It really sounds much more exciting. Explosive. As if things are at the brink of popping through the speakers. I love it.

I should also add that this really isn't considered mastering compression. Compression across the stereo buss while mixing is done all the time on most of the records you own. Whether inserted at the beginning or towards the end it's been a pretty standard technique for decades done by engineers all over the globe. If you need anymore proof, I have three letters: S - S - L.

None @ All

Mixing with compression is not the only way to go, another way is to use no mix buss compression @ all. This can be more work, but the results can be amazing, creating a very open + airy sound. I just recently mixed an entire album where I wanted a more dynamic sound than I usually go for, so I didn't use any mix buss compression. It required more automation, but the end result had a lot of depth + subtlety that would have been lost if I compressed it more aggressively.

Hope this helps.

[Charles Dye]

Originally Posted by Mason

Thats interesting Charles. What has led you to not using compression on the 2-buss?

I was mixing an album last year for indie artist John Ralston called "Sorry Vampire" (an amazing album btw). It was a very different record for me. Pretty much completely reinvented my sound on this one. For the most part, I did nothing the same. For starters... no buss compression. Much less saturation. Much less compression. Very dynamic. The antithesis of my previous work.

When we started I asked John what kind of sound he was looking for with this record. His reply was that he wanted it to "have depth + feel three-dimensional." The first thing I decided based on that was I would have to make the mixes a lot more dynamic than today's ultra crushed sound (+ my previous mixes), which doesn't really leave much room for depth + space.

But the time was right, I was ready to try something new. Not that the more aggressive sound I've gotten on other records isn't valid. It's great. But it just wasn't going to be right for "Sorry Vampire."

At the same time, I was really getting inspired by the songs + John's quirky, funky + unexpected instrument choices. The record was clearly meant to sound different. So, taking my cues from the recording + production I basically ignored all my first instincts + did my best to make unconventional sonic choices as often as I could.

In the end, we were all satisfied with the results + I can't say how thrilled I am that Vagrant Records supported our desire during mastering to have the record be so dynamic. It's about 6 dB quieter than most aggressively limited records. But when ya turn it up, it sounds huge.

Working on the record actually lead to the founding of Turn Me Up! (www.turnmeup.org) a non-profit music industry organization John + I started to help give artists back the choice to release more dynamic records that was just written about in Rolling Stone and the Chicago Tribune.

Thanks for your interest, Mason.

[macleodgrant]

i'm busy mixing a jazzy type song for a great irish artist and i'm finding i'm using tiny amounts of compression and its sounding really big, spacious and clear. i'm putting nothing on the 2 buss at all. the artist is loving it

i'm all for 3 dimensional and depth now, it has to be the way forward since too many albums are been destroyed by far too much compression and over limiting.

one plug i find me using a lot though is DUY Valve, that plugin is amazing, thanks for putting me on to them Charles!

[Mason]

Thanks for the info Charles - very interesting. So what sort of RMS levels did the album end up being?

[Charles Dye]

The avg RMS of John Ralston's "Sorry Vampire" is about -11 dBfs. For comparison modern releases have an avg RMS of about -6 to -5 dBfs.

Basically the end result is a record that doesn't feel quiet @ all, but is about 6 dB more dynamic. And to me those kind of dynamics also make records feel bigger + more powerful, because you can turn them up + immerse your self in the sound of the music.

[Pronecobra]

Say Charles,

Do you have an opinion regarding Voxengo's AnalogFlux Tapebuss or PSP's Mix Saturator?

Thanks.

P.Cobra

[computa]

Originally Posted by Charles Dye

It sounds even weirder considering your screen name...


And yeah... URS CSP rocks big time. I'm actually using it right now for my 2-buss saturation. Been using Iron A + Iron B a lot. Love that plug.

to me urs pro doesnt quite react like mcdsp analog channel on 2buss. It just seems like a 2buss eq more than anything when using iron b30

[Charles Dye]

Originally Posted by Pronecobra

Do you have an opinion regarding Voxengo's AnalogFlux Tapebuss or PSP's Mix Saturator?

No, I haven't used them, but I have heard good things about them.

Have you tried them, P?

[Charles Dye]

Originally Posted by computa

to me urs pro doesnt quite react like mcdsp analog channel on 2buss. It just seems like a 2buss eq more than anything when using iron b30

That's right, the input stage doesn't really do the dynamic processing that AC1 does. For that you would simply add in it's compressor. Nonetheless, CSP does add a subtle saturation color I really like.

I'm currently using it for a more transparent 2 buss sound than I get from AC1 or Waves SSL + for that it works brilliantly.

[Pronecobra]

Gosh, it sounds like there simply isn't a native PC equivalent to AC1.

On the last project I did, I have used Voxengo's TapeBuss on individual tracks while mixing into PSP's MixSaturator. I used both as tape emulators, although PSP's MixSaturator does include valve style saturation as well. I like how the MixSaturator effects the low end - harmonics thicken without rendering it muddy. The low end is warm and punchy much like tape.

Interestingly, Voxengo's TapeBuss uses convolution technology and has a great degree of control over modulation and smearing. The plug has a number of emulation settings that are simply differentiated by letters and numbers (tape A, tape b2, etc.) rather than offering specifics like 15/30 ips, 1/2" or 1/4", etc.

Say Charles, when you use Waves' SSL plugs on your 2 buss, are you using the Master Comp or the channel strip? I am assuming you use the Master comp. But I wonder if you have considered or have already tried running the SSL channel strip plug on the 2buss with the dynamics and EQ bypassed, leaving you only with the "analog" engaged? Do you think that it would be worth while? I have tried it on individual tracks (but not on the 2buss) and could swear that it added a pleasing soft punchiness to my mix. I posted the idea here on Gear Slutz and it unleashed a fire storm of discussion over whether not the Waves SSL plug-ins could even create such results. Many maintained that the effect could not even be heard, regardless of whether or not the Waves SSL plug-ins' analog saturation component remained working even with the plug-ins' primary function by passed. It seems to me, however, that Waves may have anticipated or even intended on this. I mean, why put the "analog" button there at all?

best,

P.Cobra

[Charles Dye]

Originally Posted by Pronecobra

Gosh, it sounds like there simply isn't a native PC equivalent to AC1.

Haven't read the whole post yet... but yes there is.

The Analog button on the Waves SSL sounds a hell of a lot like how I use AC1. I have used it many times in place of AC1. And it sounds great.

Now, I'll go read the rest of your post where you probably say the exact same thing.

[Charles Dye]

Originally Posted by Pronecobra

On the last project I did, I have used Voxengo's TapeBuss on individual tracks while mixing into PSP's MixSaturator. I used both as tape emulators, although PSP's MixSaturator does include valve style saturation as well. I like how the MixSaturator effects the low end - harmonics thicken without rendering it muddy. The low end is warm and punchy much like tape.

Interestingly, Voxengo's TapeBuss uses convolution technology and has a great degree of control over modulation and smearing. The plug has a number of emulation settings that are simply differentiated by letters and numbers (tape A, tape b2, etc.) rather than offering specifics like 15/30 ips, 1/2" or 1/4", etc.

Say Charles, when you use Waves' SSL plugs on your 2 buss, are you using the Master Comp or the channel strip? I am assuming you use the Master comp. But I wonder if you have considered or have already tried running the SSL channel strip plug on the 2buss with the dynamics and EQ bypassed, leaving you only with the "analog" engaged? Do you think that it would be worth while? I have tried it on individual tracks (but not on the 2buss) and could swear that it added a pleasing soft punchiness to my mix. I posted the idea here on Gear Slutz and it unleashed a fire storm of discussion over whether not the Waves SSL plug-ins could even create such results. Many maintained that the effect could not even be heard, regardless of whether or not the Waves SSL plug-ins' analog saturation component remained working even with the plug-ins' primary function by passed. It seems to me, however, that Waves may have anticipated or even intended on this. I mean, why put the "analog" button there at all?

To be clear, I've been talking about AC1, which emulates solid-state saturation, + not AC2, which emulates tape saturation. Much like DaD Tape, which IS available for host based PC.

And yes, the Waves SSL Analog button does add a punchiness to the mix.

Looks like we are totally on the same page.

[A.Zaccarias]

Hi,
I was able to faithfully recriate the ac1 effect on the mixbus (with the ssl setting only) with the URS1980 limiter/comp. Heard no ac1 saturation mojo, at all... Still doubt if it really exists in ac1 though... I felt more like a subtle limiting and light compression at most.
In the end, after comparing lots of mixes, I liked the 1980 "glue effect" a little more.
Haven't given a try to CSP. (But my guess on 1980 was way before the CSP's been released. I think I was in the right direction)

..................
Turnmeup stuff, aside...

Charles, was the idea of applying no more compression to the mix related somehow to counteract the effects of the new kind of post-compression that are inheritent to the new medias and data compression artifacts, radios and agressive broadcast compression settings or sites and internet (video sites, e.g).
So, the mix can breathe and "survive until the final act" ??

[Mercado_Negro]

My opinion...

URS Channel Strip Pro is good... real good... but ColorTone? That's another level!... that's a killer tool when you're mixing... try this, try to mix your drums until you get close to the sound you're looking for and then send them to a group and insert there ColorTone... I ain't got a specific impulse because all depends on your drums (how they were recorded, and if they are electronic), but I suggest to spend some time looking for a good one and changing color, warmth, trim, output, input, knee and curve on each one... it really takes some time but it will give you what you're looking for. Do the same to the rest of instruments, send them to a group and insert there another ColorTone... you know the rest!....

P.S. Try using AnalogFlux on drums... I can't remember setting but I think is "smashing drums" and "mastering 1, 2, 3".

[digital lofi]

I know I'm way out of my depth here with y'all, and I haven't tried any of these high-end plugins you're all working with and comparing, but I thought I'd point out the FebFilter Pro-C.

FabFilter Software Instruments - Audio effect and synthesizer plugins AU VST RTAS

It's a really, really classy compressor that sounds great on a two-bus. No saturation per se, but an amazing versitile compressor with great GUI and a lot of scope to the sound. I haven't even bought it yet - fully working 30-day demo! - but when some funds clear up it's definitely on the list. I generally mix without any compression on my master bus, but I was playing with this trying it in different situations, and this just wonders on a mix with the slightest bit of tweaking and almost no squashing.

[theblue1]

Hey, Charles, due and proper respect for your work with TurnMeUp!

I decided to check out the Ralston album and I was actually able to sandwich it into Linda Ronstadt's Canciones Favoritas and not have to make a desperate grab for the volume as Ralston came on.

Unlike so much contemporary rock, I found it had some breathing room, a sense of dynamic movement (unlike so many current tracks that sound squeezed out of a tube) and while it had a moderately aggressive stance, it wasn't fatiguing or unpleasant.

Nice to see guys like you out there shining a little light into the nescience.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by Charles Dye

Basically the end result is a record that doesn't feel quiet @ all, but is about 6 dB more dynamic. And to me those kind of dynamics also make records feel bigger + more powerful, because you can turn them up + immerse your self in the sound of the music.

Had completely missed this discussion!

Interesting that you say this. It's actually your "fault" that I often mix through a compressor nowadays. I think I might be using lighter compression than what you're doing on MiLaR, but it's still the same effect. Sometimes though I really like not to use compression on the master. I never did this before and whenever I do it today and it works I pretty much come to the same conclusion as you. With that said, I personally don't think it's optimal for all type of songs, and not mixing through compression either.

Whatever the mix need and all that jazz...

Whenever I want to be a rebel I do the Bruce Swedien thing and just skip the compression altogether

Only steal from the best...

[Charles Dye]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Hey, Charles, due and proper respect for your work with TurnMeUp!

I decided to check out the Ralston album and I was actually able to sandwich it into Linda Ronstadt's Canciones Favoritas and not have to make a desperate grab for the volume as Ralston came on.

Unlike so much contemporary rock, I found it had some breathing room, a sense of dynamic movement (unlike so many current tracks that sound squeezed out of a tube) and while it had a moderately aggressive stance, it wasn't fatiguing or unpleasant.

Nice to see guys like you out there shining a little light into the nescience.

Thanx, bluedood!! I'm glad you liked way "Sorry Vampire" breathed, + that you're diggin what TMU! is about.

John Ralston really is an amazing artist. Extremely creative. And the great work he had done producing the record, along with the great job Michael Seaman recording it really encouraged me to allow John's arrangements to breathe with the mixes. Then once we the record was done, we felt that with Turn Me Up! we could help other artists with the TMU! certification.

And while we're discussing URS CSP, another big difference on the record for me was that I actually used CSP as my main + sometimes only processor on nearly all the tracks. So, that may also be contributing to the sound you're hearing on "Sorry Vampire".

The low end on the record was also very different for me. Taking my cue from the hip hop drum grooves that many of the songs share, I went for a hip hop style of low end. Huge boomy loud kick, together with a warm but fairly subordinate level on the bass.

To be clear, the original drums didn't "sound like" hip hop drums, but the drum patterns on about half the record are in played in a hip hop style, instead of a straight ahead rock groove. And they were all played on a live kit. So, the trick was to get the live kit to have a hip hop quality... without losing it's acoustic tone. I didn't want it to sound all processed either.

We also borrowed the balance between the instruments on many of the mixes from hip hop. IOW, big drums + vox, but somewhat tucked + in the track instruments. "Where You Used to Sleep" was the turning point mix on that concept + is a very good example of what I'm talking about.

So, once we hit upon that sound thalfway thru the mixing process, we then went back to the rest of the mixes + reworked them. And it was a big change for those mixes, so it wasn't just a few tweaks. Took awhile to find a way to get that concept to work on all the mixes.

But we finally got it + I'm pretty happy with it. It's different, but seems to retain it's musicality in pretty much every type of speaker I play it on.

And as you said it breathes very nicely.