Is it time to leave TDM?

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by Max

Not necessarily. A Symphony System can have up to 96 channels of simultaneous I/O. As for DSP, the computer is way more efficient vs. card based DSP and can deliver a great deal more plug-ins. Considering Logic Symhpony Systems can utilize multiple computers, the cost of added DSP is substantially less and yet more powerful by comparison.

Symphony PCI Cards + 6 - AD 16 X / DA 16 X + Nuendo About $22,000.00

HD 3 Accel + 4 - 192 w/ A/D and DA Cards = about $21,000.00

[Max]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Ok, you are winning me over.
What sort of support do you have for pro users?

Thanks, I appreacte the info.

Jim

The vast majority of Apogee users are professionals. We have one of the best support teams in the business and strive to exceed all expectations when it comes to taking care of our customers. We have some of the most knowledgable field reps as well, who in many cases show up personally to help with system support.

All tech support is free for the life of your Apogee products. We are also implementing some new cool features on our website in the coming months to make customer service even better than it already is.

We understand that the way we take care of our customers is just as important as the products we make. Hopefully there are many folks here who can attest to that.

[thetec]

Im a freelance mac tech,,and i know so many people now selling there protools systems and going native with motu or maudio cards!
its just a much less pain in the arse!!
kev

[walnut]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

Symphony PCI Cards + 6 - AD 16 X / DA 16 X + Nuendo About $22,000.00

HD 3 Accel + 4 - 192 w/ A/D and DA Cards = about $21,000.00

you are high. the hd rig you describe retails for close to $34k.

the 3 Apogee AD-16X's and 3 DA-16X's 16x converters would sound way better and would retail for about $23k.

i know a lot of people too that are dumping tdm rigs for native- it just makes more sense.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by walnut

you are high. the hd rig you describe retails for close to $34k.

the 3 Apogee AD-16X's and 3 DA-16X's 16x converters would sound way better and would retail for about $23k.

i know a lot of people too that are dumping tdm rigs for native- it just makes more sense.

A. If you buy retail, you deserve what you get.
B. I know people who have tried going Native and end up coming back to a PT HD system.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

A. If you buy retail you deserve what you get.
B. I know people who have tried going Native and end up coming back to a PT HD system.

don't know about other DAWs but VCA faders and ADC for hardware in PT alone are worth the price of TDM for me.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by raal

don't know about other DAWs but VCA faders and ADC for hardware in PT alone are worth the price of TDM for me.

What do you mean by vca faders?

BTW I think cubase have adc for hardware.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

What do you mean by vca faders?

VCA 'style' faders. they control gain and whatever other parameters you need on the slave tracks. real time saver.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by raal

VCA 'style' faders. they control gain and whatever other parameters you need on the slave tracks. real time saver.

Ok so you refer to control surface assignments I guess.

[barryjohns]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

BTW I think cubase have adc for hardware.

From what I've heard, you are right, Cubase does handle hardware inserts with ADC very well.

However, he is considering going Logic and from all the people I talk to, Logic does not. To make it work right, you have to use some cumbersome plugin. I have not personally experienced this yet, but that's what my research has pointed to.

This is a real deal breaker for a lot of people. Maybe me being one of them.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by barryjohns

From what I've heard, you are right, Cubase does handle hardware inserts with ADC very well.

I just wanted to mention that there are other daws that does this as well as a response to raals post. I mean for anyone comfortable working in cubase thats good news.

[Tony Shepperd]

For every action... going NATIVE.
There is an equal and opposite reaction. PT HD.

Thinking about switching to Pro Tools

Pro Tools HD questions

[barryjohns]

I think that most people around here have never owned an HD rig and used it day in day out. And because of this, they really have no idea what HD really is and what it can really do for them.

Likewise, I think most people that own HD now, have used it for years and have never had to deal with the Native world much. Maybe messed with it a little out of curiosity, but not really used it day in day out.

I have struggled with the dilemma a great deal. I am a tech junkie. I always want the latest and greatest. Native is kinda always giving us something new in an attempt to measure up. Protools is like the old reliable car, when new it was awesome, but after a while the luster wears off, but man that car will get you where you need to go, every single day. Occasional oil changes, but never any major work.

Native on the other hand, well you gotta trade that car in frequently and it needs servicing all the time. Yes it will get you from point A to point B. However, there is something to be said for driving a car that you never have to worry about, as you drive down the freeway, you see cars broken down over and over again, but yours keeps driving on, wherever you want it to take you. No it's not gonna be that way forever, but man you haven’t event started to wear that thing out even after 100,000 miles. Its got plenty of life left in it.

Driving a car like that is a little pricey but you do get what you pay for.

Oh, and bye the way, never buy a new car off the lot, it’s not smart. Buy a used car that will hold it’s value more than a new one.

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by walnut

you are high. the hd rig you describe retails for close to $34k.
.

Maybe if your paying full retail HD3 PCIe systems go for $8500 on ebay, I got one for $7500.

LINK

There are HD2 systems for 5K

[deuc647]

it is true, i havent had one crash out of PTHD, but neither did i with cubase and an RME card! i think there is a lot of emphasis on what daw is stable and what daw is not. but the fact the our components in the pc or mac have a lot more to do with it. yeah things get buggy but also resolved and people always say well it crashed and it froze or it turned of and closed a session, but is it the daw or...................

[barryjohns]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

Maybe if your paying full retail HD3 PCIe systems go for $8500 on ebay, I got one for $7500.

LINK

There are HD2 systems for 5K

I have 5300.00 in my HD2. The HD1 was new in the box and bought the 2nd card on ebay. 4k and 1300.

I will say that I've been following HD Accel PCIe cards on eBay for a few months and the price has been higher.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Ok so you refer to control surface assignments I guess.

yes and no. with an Icon it's really great. just select your VCA master, spill the slaves on the other faders and tweak away.

but even without an Icon the VCA masters do the same thing. without VCAs it's a PITA if you want to tweak the level on a grouped track. either you disable the gorup master or every track in the group will be affected. with VCAs you adjust levels on all tracks by using the master fader, and tweak indivdual tracks individually for example. just like that.

doesn't sound like much but boy do you get used to that fast. and the copy to send function for making quick cue mixes rocks. alot of TDM things make it very much worth it (for me at least).

and as TRS stated you don't have to pay an arm and a leg for TDM anymore.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by barryjohns

I think that most people around here have never owned an HD rig and used it day in day out. And because of this, they really have no idea what HD really is and what it can really do for them.

Tell me what it can do for me that is impossible on native then.

I get the "tried and tested" part, HD has been around long and proven it self. But the OP uses logic almost exclusively and never use live hardware inserts directly in the converter. I have used both HD and mix systems but only as a recorder/editor, so I have never had any need for ADC on HW inserts either.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by raal

yes and no. with an Icon it's really great. just select your VCA master, spill the slaves on the other faders and tweak away.

but even without an Icon the VCA masters do the same thing. without VCAs it's a PITA if you want to tweak the level on a grouped track. either you disable the gorup master or every track in the group will be affected. with VCAs you adjust levels on all tracks by using the master fader, and tweak indivdual tracks individually for example. just like that.

doesn't sound like much but boy do you get used to that fast. and the copy to send function for making quick cue mixes rocks. alot of TDM things make it very much worth it (for me at least).

and as TRS stated you don't have to pay an arm and a leg for TDM anymore.

I was thinking VCA as in "Voltage Controled Amplifier" thats why I was confused as this is analog.

On the pricing: I think that it´s a bit unfair to compare a second hand item to a new the only fair comparison should be list price as this is the common official price.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Tell me what it can do for me that is impossible on native then.

again, i have no idea about other DAWS but pull up/pull down, copy to send, ADC (have alot of outboard) and VCA type masters are just a few i can think of now.

none of these are small change to me.

Originally Posted by Fredrik

I was thinking VCA as in "Voltage Controled Amplifier" thats why I was confused as this is analog.

'VCA' mode in PT emulates the bhaviour of VCA automation in analog desks. with the difference that you can have a shite load of groups, audio doesn't actually go through a VCA, etc.

On the pricing: I think that it´s a bit unfair to compare a second hand item to a new the only fair comparison should be list price as this is the common official price.

seeing as people are comparing the prices of used Ks and G+s to what they were some years ago, i don't think it's unrealistic.

and really spaking, even new, who pays list? Pro Tools|HD Core Systems | Sweetwater.com see the 'contact us' link?

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by raal

again, i have no idea about other DAWS but pull up/pull down, copy to send, ADC (have alot of outboard) and VCA type masters are just a few i can think of now.

none of these are small change to me.

I was more thinking in terms of system performance as the difference in software varies and has more to do with preferences than anything else. There are things you can do in logic that you can´t do in PT etc. and the same is true with all software.

[barryjohns]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

I was thinking VCA as in "Voltage Controled Amplifier" thats why I was confused as this is analog.

On the pricing: I think that it´s a bit unfair to compare a second hand item to a new the only fair comparison should be list price as this is the common official price.

I do not agree, it's out the door price. You can factor in used Apogee Converters as well as used Symphony Cards both can be had pretty easily.

Logic 8 is so cheap; to me it's not a factor either.

Make no bones about it; a Logic/Symphony rig is cheaper, however the gap is nowhere as much as people would have you believe.

Retail is simply not relevant.

A used HD rig is just as good as a new one. Plus, the pricing we are using here is for new, just not retail. Like I said, I got my Brand Spanking New HD1 for 4,000.00. And a 2nd Card that was less than a year old for 1300.00. You can buy new HD2's on eBay form Dutchmusik or DMmanagment practically any day of the week from 5800-6000. That's a little more than I got mine for, but those are completely new in the box, full warranty and support for Digidesign.

Now for a home project studio, Logic/Symphony is very, very, very compelling and priced right. But for a “For Hire Studio”, I wouldn’t bank my business on it if it were me. Too much of a gamble. I could be, and probably am wrong, but security/peace of mind is a cost of doing business.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

On the pricing: I think that it´s a bit unfair to compare a second hand item to a new the only fair comparison should be list price as this is the common official price.

But that's not a real world comparison.
In the open market place, it's not what you charge it's what people will pay for it.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

I was more thinking in terms of system performance as the difference in software varies and has more to do with preferences than anything else. There are things you can do in logic that you can´t do in PT etc. and the same is true with all software.

AFAIK, the only thing Logic does better is midi (please correct me if i'm wrong), and i use very little midi so that's not a problem here.

again, i know close to nothing about other DAWs so i really shouldn't even be commenting on this, but i can tell you with certainty HD is on another level than LE. also there are some very cool plugs that are HD only, but i think the days on those are numbered.

also i do get over twice the instances of Wave SSL with RTAS than with Accel 3 on my puter though so the accel DSP thing is becoming less and less of an issue, that's a fact.

[Tony Shepperd]

Does Logic or Cubase have FULL ADC throughout the entire internal to external structure?
The busses, the Aux sends, the I/O's... EVERYWHERE?

And it's not just what it has over a Native system, it's also the features that most professionals need.
For me, Import Session data is chief among those features.

[barryjohns]

Originally Posted by raal

do get over twice the instances of Wave SSL with RTAS than with Accel 3 on my puter though so the accel DSP thing is becoming less and less of an issue, that's a fact.

I don't even use TDM plugs with the exception of Soundtoys and Reverb. Soundtoys get converted to RTAS after I've tracked through them. Once Leopard is approved, I think it will be even more powerful for RTAS.

I do think the next card out for Digi will be very powerful and will enable us to Record at 192 with tons of TDM plugs. Maybe, Maybe not. We'll see.

FWIW, I record at 44.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

But that's not a real world comparison.
In the open market place, it's not what you charge it's what people will pay for it.

Ok I agree if you aren´t talking about the second hand systems. Since HD have been around since 2000?? or so it´s natural that it has settled a bit I think, but acording to supply and demand the lower price should indicate that the demand is low, or atleast that the typical customer is not prepared to pay what digi have estimated the value at i.e list.

[stresstour]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Partially Sarcasm... I've actually never had alcohol (or cigarettes or co