why are TDM plugs double the price of Native plugs?

[Jason Poulin]

I just never got it.

When I browse my sweetwater mag, I've always wondered why the two are soooo different in price... most of time, it's exactly double the price.


???



Thanks


J.

[True North]

In Short: Because they can

Initially RTAS was created as a plugin format for the non-pros and when native power did not allow for very much flexibility.

TDM plugs are dependant upon programming that will run on their proprietary hardware cards. A professional would certainly pay more for a plug to run on their prorietary system if they didn't have any options.

One of the big factors behind an HD Rig is the ability to run plugs on your HD card without taxing Native power. Remember up until recently there were restrictions on using RTAS plugs in a TDM enviroment (i.e. you couldn't use them on a buss etc..) so as an HD user you were sort of stuck if you wanted to add new plugs.

[Andrew Kinsey]

The reason why TDM plugs cost more is because they have to run on Digi hardware and as you could emagine this adds to the cost as with anything to do with Digidesign.

Some software developers have even had to agree with Digidesign that they will not release there software in the Native format.

[octatonic]

I've said this several times already on GS- but one more time won't hurt. :-)

TDM plugins are coded in assembly.
Audio Units and other plugins are written in object oriented languages.
TDM plugins take roughly 5 times longer to code compared with other formats (including RTAS).
I've talked to several developers (Ken at Soundtoys most recently)- they have all pretty much confirmed the same.

The difference between the two could be expressed:

Object Oriented:

Pick up glass of water.
Drink Water.

Assembly:

Extend Arm
Open hand
Grasp Glass
Bend Arm
Move glass to mouth
Open mouth
Pour water in mouth
Swallow, swallow, swallow

There might be a small amount of 'because they can' but it is mostly to recoup development costs.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by octatonic

There might be a small amount of 'because they can' but it is mostly to recoup development costs.

It's also a whole lotta "because we can't".

As in, we can't charge people who buy an mbox over $1,000 for a software bundle. They don't have that kind of money. So we either sell very few or a whole bunch at a cheaper price. Simple math.

There's just not enuff of us TDM users to bring the price down as much.

[barryjohns]

At this point today, it really is because they can rip people off. Plain and simple.

I almost never use TDM plugs in Protools HD. With my Mac Pro, I can run RTAS all day. I only use TDM to track through. After I've recorded the track, I change them to RTAS. I don't really have to, but I do. I have an HD2 PCIe Accel and really never need my 2nd card. Some plugs take up a whole slot on the card and don't even put a dent in the MacPro when changed to RTAS.

Soundtoys is a must have TDM plug because I love to track through them. Any Amp Sim, needs to be TDM, like Eleven or GTR3.

Reverb is TDM for me as well.

Since I got my HD rig, I have not used a single TDM plug that came with my system. Funny isn’t' it?

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

Some software developers have even had to agree with Digidesign that they will not release there software in the Native format.

I point-blanked a cross-section of Digi people on this point a few months ago and they denied it...they said those TDM-only developers probably wouldn't have a market in non-TDM land. They said this very credibly; I have a quite effective BS detector and it didn't even buzz when they said this.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by peeder

I point-blanked a cross-section of Digi people on this point a few months ago and they denied it...they said those TDM-only developers probably wouldn't have a market in non-TDM land. They said this very credibly; I have a quite effective BS detector and it didn't even buzz when they said this.

That's a tough one to believe. How would a plug have a use in TDM, but not native?

[Tony Shepperd]

Actually Barry it's cool until you have to use one of those tracks when you have plugins on it.
If you have a ton of plugins on the lead vocal track and the vocalist needs to come in and sing an additional line, the second that track goes into record all of your RTAS plugins are put into by-pass.
It's the nature of RTAS.
It's also one of the reasons I hardly ever use that format.

BTW, Massey is TDM and charges less than anybody for his plugins.

[cooker]

Some tdm ver.s of plug-ins work with more inner bits then natives.

[sound and form]

OK. I usually bite my tongue when I come across this old, tired repetitious debate/complaint. But, all of these usual answers are completely wrong, even the truthful bit about TDM being a lot harder to develop

As someone that sells an RTAS+TDM version of all my plugins for exactly the same price, all for under $100, I think I have a credible opinion and don't have a vested interest in justifying my competitor's pricing policies. So here goes...

Let's start with some historical perspective. TDM is one of the oldest audio plug-in standards. TDM plug-ins have always been "expensive". And, their pricing range has been very consistent since they were introduced to the market. RTAS and other "native" plug-ins came to market much, much later. Emphasizing again, TDM plug-ins have been priced roughly the same all along. Mysteriously, this somehow translates into a conspiracy theory. Those sneaky, greedy plug-in companies are not to be trusted! How could they dare be so predictable and consistent!?

It should be obvious that the question posed is fundamentally flawed. It's inverted. "Why do RTAS-only plug-ins cost so much less?" is the genuinely fair question to be asking. Looking at it historically:

1. TDM plugins came first, and owners of TDM plug-in companies set a price for the product that would sustain all the various expenses of the company.

2. Additional TDM plug-in developers entered the market and emulated the pricing range of existing developers. Like with any business, they understood that the going market value was a proven indicator of how to successfully price a product and run a company.

3. TDM pricing has not shifted significantly until the last couple of years or so, meaning that the market demand has keep pace with the number of new companies entering the market. Most TDM plug-in companies are small, modest operations. These facts support my assertion that the market system has set a "fair" price for the product.

4. When the RTAS/LE market initially emerged, it was very small and extremely budget-conscious. Existing TDM developers had a few options if they wanted to cater to this market:

A. Sell only one product: A TDM+RTAS version at their pre-existing TDM-only pricing.
B. Sell two products. An RTAS-only version targeted at the LE market, and a TDM-only (or TDM+RTAS) version targeted for the TDM market. Additionally, let's assume they would be priced equitably, amortizing the costs across all users evenly based on the product they purchased.
C. Forgo this new market altogether & not sell an RTAS version at all.

A. was obviously a stupid, unrealistic choice. Consumer LE users absolutely could not afford the pre-existing professional TDM pricing. Companies would sell zero additional copies of the product after all that hard work.

Considering option B., here's a rough breakdown of the costs (time) for creating a plug-in. This is very ballpark -- mostly for illustration:

Core development: 60%
TDM: 20%
RTAS: 10%

Again, we assume the developer wants to be completely equitable and amortize the business costs across all customers -- because they are really worried about people ranting endlessly on forums about their pricing structure The above breakdown means that the RTAS-only version should sell for about 70% of the TDM+RTAS version. So, if we have an $800 TDM plugin, then the RTAS version should be priced at $560. But, you say: "Now they can drop the price altogether because they'll be selling more products!" OK, well, they still need to cover the new development and maintenance costs. But, fine, I'll run with that: In the early days, TDM customers easily outnumbered RTAS customers 10-to-1. So, they should have dropped the price to about 90%, because of the increased customer base: $800 x 90% = $720. That means the RTAS would be priced at $504. How many RTAS plugins would a developer expect to sell in the early "001 days" of the LE market, while being priced at $504? Probably about the same as case A: zero. Then, they would have lost 10% of their revenue because of that TDM+RTAS price reduction. Simply put, "Equitable pricing" would not have worked.

So, that only leaves option C: not sell anything to this new emerging LE market. Well, that's pretty stupid too. So, developers leveraged the one great thing about software. It's cheap to duplicate and distribute. They realized they had option D: Sell the RTAS-only version at an artificially reduced price. And, that's exactly what happened across the plug-in market.

5. Time has moved on. The native market has grown considerably. A lot of native-only developers have entered the market. But, they are generally much smaller, 1 to 2 man, operations and do virtually no marketing (low expenses). They are typically selling at a much, much lower price-point, which exacerbates the perception that TDM is "way overpriced". But, nothing much has shifted in the TDM market. The user base is fairly static at this point, perhaps even dwindling. The old-school TDM developer's landscape still looks the same. They still sell to the same professional customers. Sales of their native plug-ins probably aren't great, but they absolutely cannot drop their RTAS-only pricing which would only infuriate everyone further.

So, in short, there are two marketplaces: The professional TDM market and the budget-conscious LE market. If you want a professional customer base, and stay in business, you have to price high. And, if you want to exploit the power of numbers and sell to the LE market, you have to price much lower. TDM developers then also sell an enormously discounted RTAS-only version to pick up a few more sales, but the TDM sales are absolutely what keeps the lights on. TDM customers are not getting ripped off. In effect, they are being subsidized by those RTAS-only sales.

Steven Massey
High-end plug-ins for Pro Tools

[e-cue]

Thanks for the breakdown Massey. I'm heading over to your site to buy the last couple of plug in's you sell that I don't yet own.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by sound and form

Considering option B., here's a rough breakdown of the costs (time) for creating a plug-in. This is very ballpark -- mostly for illustration:

Core development: 60%
TDM: 20%
RTAS: 10%

Hi Steven,

Thanks for taking to time to explain it.
Makes a lot more sense.

Can I ask you questions regarding coding tdm vs rtas.
As I said above- it was explained to me that the different programming languages accounted for the cost.
How are you doing the core development?
In what language?
When creating the TDM plugin- I assume this is assembly- correct?
Are you using C++ for RTAS?
How do you go about converting from TDM to RTAS- or does it not work like that?

Jim

[drew]

Thanks for the insight Steve.

And I already own them all!!!!

[Stiff]

Great post Steve!

[londontown]

we always used to have saying round here that TDM really stands for The Digital Mafia.

(but steve's post above pretty much should be stickied, that's the best explanation of it I've seen)

[s.d.finley]

Well there you have it kids!

A total break down of the TDM world of plugs!

BTW...Massey rules!!

[Improv]

Brilliant post, Steve!

But it leads to the question: Why do you sell your TDM plugs for so cheap, then?

Originally Posted by londontown

steve's post above ... should be stickied, that's the best explanation of it I've seen

+1

[razorz]

Gonna have to break down and buy all of those TDM plugins on your website Massey. Look great, just gotta cool off the wallet from the SSL 4000 TDM bundle I dropped a load on.

dfegad

[sound and form]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Hi Steven,

Thanks for taking to time to explain it.
Makes a lot more sense.

Can I ask you questions regarding coding tdm vs rtas.
As I said above- it was explained to me that the different programming languages accounted for the cost.
How are you doing the core development?
In what language?
When creating the TDM plugin- I assume this is assembly- correct?
Are you using C++ for RTAS?
How do you go about converting from TDM to RTAS- or does it not work like that?

Jim

Jim,

No problem. The basic programming language for the user interface and everything that glues the plugin together is typically C/C++.

Correct, the TDM portion is written in assembly and C++ for the native processing. You have to code the algorithm twice, and the TDM DSP code is at least twice as long and hard to create, hence my 20% vs 10% breakdown. For more complex plugins, that ratio easily shifts higher. With my last plugin, the tape delay, the DSP implementation was probably 4X harder than RTAS code. The conversion process is a totally manual/mental exercise. There are no tools to help you out.

Steve

[sound and form]

Originally Posted by Improv

Brilliant post, Steve!

But it leads to the question: Why do you sell your TDM plugs for so cheap, then?

Thanks! Well, in essence, I did at one time sell plug-ins at the other price-point, having been involved with Trillium Lane Labs. Truth is, it was really hard. We went out of business!

I can sell my plugins so cheaply because I've entered the market at point 5 in my timeline. Having started from "scratch" allowed me to take a much different approach than the old-school -- I simply don't have the same pre-existing infrastructure they do. And because of the lower price-point I can sell to both LE and TDM customers equally. (I guess this makes me Option E.) But, I don't know if I even "count" in the whole debate. I sell below even the cheapest "good" native-only plugins!

From a personal perspective, pricing them higher also requires a lot of marketing dollars and energy. I'm an engineer and not a marketing guy. I didn't want to spend my days on the phone, buying ad space, and pushing products on dealers. I'm good at making things and probably not so great at traditional marketing. Pricing them cheaply is my marketing.

The TDM market is dying off and can't support this old economic structure (option D) for that much longer. Problem is, for the consumer, TDM plugins will probably stay higher priced until the platform swiftly dies out -- when native fully matches it slightly more adventageous feature set. So, everyone can look forward to universally cheap TDM plugins someday! (In the trash bins of Sweetwater.)

Thanks!
Steve

[Improv]

Originally Posted by sound and form

Having started from "scratch" allowed me to take a much different approach than the old-school .... I sell below even the cheapest "good" native-only plugins!...

...I'm an engineer and not a marketing guy....

...So, everyone can look forward to universally cheap TDM plugins someday!

Thanks!
Steve

No, thank you!

[ddageek]

Great post steve!
Massey and the TDM only Soundtoys are the only thing I 'm gonna miss in my switch from PT to logic

If and when you decide to go AU I'll be there with bells on and wallet extended!

[Dan]

Wow! Great post Steve.

Thank you.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by sound and form

The TDM market is dying off and can't support this old economic structure (option D) for that much longer. Problem is, for the consumer, TDM plugins will probably stay higher priced until the platform swiftly dies out -- when native fully matches it slightly more adventageous feature set. So, everyone can look forward to universally cheap TDM plugins someday! (In the trash bins of Sweetwater.)

Thanks!
Steve

LOL...

So- when are you going to start doing AU and VST's?

[B-San]

^ I wouldn't be surprised if Steve's contractually bound to a Digidesign only format...

[n8tron]

Originally Posted by octatonic

LOL...

So- when are you going to start doing AU and VST's?

+1


actually I'd be interested in knowing the general market share of plugin formats. I'm always curious about this stuff. Like amount of AU, rtas, tdm, vst out in the market, and then amount sold as well. I'm pretty sure there are more VST plugins out there than anything, but how does that compare to how many TDM plugins are sold, and so on and so forth. In other words, what are the advantages in developing in one format as opposed to the other, if there are even any advantages beyond simply knowing one format better than the other.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by B-San

^ I wouldn't be surprised if Steve's contractually bound to a Digidesign only format...

I know they are picky about who they license the RTAS and TDM formats to, trying to maintain a minimum quality level, but I'm not sure they have that much leverage in getting exclusives. It would be interesting to learn that they were, and what the severability was.

I seriously doubt the contract would be so unseverable that Mr. Massey would have to stop selling RTAS and TDM altogether if he wanted to support AU/VST. That's as far as the contract could go: it couldn't stipulate indentured servitude; such a contract would be tossed by the courts. And if Mr. Massey found a business case for leaving RTAS/TDM in favor of VST/AU, it would be an unmitigated disaster for digidesign.

In fact digi should be paying Mr. Massey $thousands for every month he doesn't port to VST/AU. His plugins have quickly become a key differentiator for their product over the competition, and given the pricing digi may be making more profit off of them than Mr. Massey is.

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by Jason Poulin

I just never got it.


J.

Hey James

Why are womans haircuts twice as much as mens? Same reason. Its about explotation. Its about robbery.

You also have to consider the amount of Native plugins there are. There are so many great plugins for low prices, even some free ones than are better than TDM stuff. Its more open

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Jason Poulin

why are TDM plugs double the price of Native plugs?

Two words...

Captive Market.