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Mr XY
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#1
4th November 2007
Old 4th November 2007
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wrist fatigue/ rsi

Have a had a really intense couple of weeks beat detectin drums and melodynin' vocals - another quality band through the door...
Anyway - started to get a nasty wrist ache when mousing - and am thinking I should look into alternative control methods - trackball or tablet for instance and am just wondering if anyone has had any success with either of these both in terms of work speed and reduced wrist pain?

thanks!
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4th November 2007
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I switched to trackball bit more then a year ago. Had serious RSI from mousing.

It's much better with trackball now, but I still gotta be careful. Give wrists enough rest, and do some stretch exercises etc.
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4th November 2007
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I have no issues and working full time computer/mixer blahblah, gaming everyday since 12 years.

I play american football in my freetime. helps regenerating my wrist.

sports.. goooood.

cheers


edit:
and I am built like a tank.. :D that helps too.
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#4
4th November 2007
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Make sure you're sitting at the right level and that you sit properly. Straighten that back!

* * *

EDIT:
And yeah, working out can help quite a bit. My RSI always gets worse when I'm injured and can't work out (like now)
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4th November 2007
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You might want to try a Evoluent VerticalMouse , it has helped me alot.
No way I'm mixing a whole album with just a regular mouse again!

This will be my next step in ergonomics:
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4th November 2007
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my index finger was really painful a couple of weeks ago because of editing/mixing with a mouse ... last week i had a soundtrack where i played a lot of fingerstyle guitar and because of the exercise the finger got a lot better....

mouse pads don't really help... but i guess if you switch pointers to rest and make different movements it can help.
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4th November 2007
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It may be helpful to put a pad of some kind (some folks use a rolled up wash cloth) up under the heel of you palm in front of your mouse). Ditto for the keyboard if that's an issue -- what you want to do is straighten out the wrist so that the tendons are not continually rubbing on the walls of the carpal tunnel. If you have to move your hand and fingers a lot while your wrist is bent, the tendons end up rubbing constantly and become inflamed.

When they're really inflamed, they're so swollen that they are constantly rubbing against the tunnel walls, no matter what position the wrist is in.


(I had a bad but short bout of it one time when I had a burst of energy writing a novel [three chapters in that many days and then... well... lack of discipline ]. I had to go to the computer or stationery store to get supplies and put my hands on a Microsoft Natural keyboard [the curvy kind] and, for whatever reasons, it actually felt good. I bought it on the spot and haven't regretted it. [Although I ended up buying a new one five or six years ago when the cable wacked out on the first one, then about 4 or 5 years old.] Of course, it's not the answer for everyone -- non-touch typists despise them -- but for me, the raised area in front of the keyboard gave me straight wrists while typing since the first time I abandoned my electric typewriter.)
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#8
4th November 2007
Old 4th November 2007
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I treat these type of injuries every day. Start with some breif wrist stretches(you can find these with google easily) every 20 minutes when mousing as well as 3-5 times a day when not
.
One of the vertical mouse products are great as one of the big problems with mice are wrist pronation (inward turning)

Myofascial release , a specfic type of massage work, as well as carpal joint manipultion are preferred conservative measures if the first 2 suggestions fail to produce relief.
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4th November 2007
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Got RSI?
Buy this -> Link
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4th November 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc View Post
I treat these type of injuries every day. Start with some breif wrist stretches(you can find these with google easily) every 20 minutes when mousing as well as 3-5 times a day when not
.
One of the vertical mouse products are great as one of the big problems with mice are wrist pronation (inward turning)

Myofascial release , a specfic type of massage work, as well as carpal joint manipultion are preferred conservative measures if the first 2 suggestions fail to produce relief.
Doc, I tend to get what I think is the 'opposite' problem -- if I don't watch myself, I have a tendency to rest my wrist flat on the surface of my work area, which requires a backward flexing of the hand [or maybe that's actually what you were saying -- I see you said the wrist pronation is inward turning -- in a sense, I guess as my hand bends backwards, my wrist is pushed 'inward.']

Anyway, I find that I can minimize irritation by keeping int he habit turning my mouse hand so that it's in a more vertical position, resting on the edge of the hand, which helps me keep the wrist in a more natural position.
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4th November 2007
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I also have RSI problems and tried several devices. Various mouses, trackball, thumbball, tablet, mousepen.

I think that everybody for themselves has to find out what device works best for you.

Offcourse there are wellknown facts what positions should be avoided.

A mouse is hell after a long time, those vertical mouses are already so much better!

Trackballs are okay, but not very precise, so that's why I went with a thumbball, which worked more precise, but is also more prone to RSI because in order to be precise with the thumb the hand gets cramped a little and also you'd still have to click with your fingers too. http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mi...s/159&cl=nl,nl

My own impression is that the Wacom Intuos tablet offers the most relaxed feeling, because you don't have to press the pen down to move the cursor and the angle of the pen doesn't matter.

My last buy was a mouse pen Welcome to Salient Technology, Home of the V-mouse . It's great idea and also quite good design (can be used to mouse on your upper leg too), but to me the angle of the laser is wrong for my hand to feel very comfortable, if they'd make the head tiltable it would be much better. There is another product on the market which has that, but still that is also not perfect. Also clicking is not very comfortable, I set it up so I could click with the computer keyboard which was a little better, but since I was used to clicking with left and having the rest of PT shortcuts with my other hand it was slightly less efficient.
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5th November 2007
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A few tips that might help:

* Active relaxation. I was really forced to learn this when I played a lot of guitar. A lot of problems arise because of tensions in your body, and you might not even know that you're tensed! When you sit and work try to really feel every single part of your body and the tensions there. For RSI cause by mousing it's often in the neck and shoulders (don't think so much about where the pain itself is). Relax them. Every now and then as you sit and work, take that break and search for tensions again. I've mainly done this with my guitar playing, and not only do I not hurt from it anymore, it actually made me a much better player as well.

* Sit in a proper way. I recently switched chairs. At first I found it to be rather uncomfortable, however, it turned out to be what i really needed. It was only uncomfortable when I sat "wrong", at the front of the seat with my back slouching. As soon as I sat straight up with my back correctly to the back of the chair it was fine. And guess what, it helped my RSI.

* Shake of your hands every now and then. Not violently, just lightly.

* Work out. This can make a lot of difference, as already mentioned by George Necola (and myself after I read his post). It's really obvious to me, because whenever I'm unable to workout (because of injury or whatever) my RSI gets worse.

* Get up and walk every now and then. For 10-20 seconds every hour or something like that.

* Stretch. I'm not entirely sure how good physiologically this is if you're not 100% where the issue is (pain in your wrist doesn't necessarily mean that that's where the problem lies). A doctor should probably help you out with this and give you the proper exercises to do.

* All those gadgets... A lot already mentioned. The trackballs didn't work well for me, actually, the mighty mouse worked better. Too bad it's a piece of crap build-wise. The scroll wheel has helped me a lot however. I've been looking at tablets and thinking a lot about touch screens but haven't gotten around to use either one.

* More gadgets... Namely control surfaces. If you're a bedroom studio guy without a control surface - consider getting one. Control surfaces are a big deal, even volume faders and pan knobs can make a little difference. The real money however is in GREAT controllers. Plug-in control, editing functionality etc can make a huge difference.

Personally I would probably need something like the Euphonix stuff or an ICON... Boy, it sucks to be mortal.
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5th November 2007
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+1 for the verticle mouse. The one I have was called 'ergonomic mouse' (by 3M) when I bought it, but that was years ago. It looks like a joystick, with the clicker buttons on the top. Imagine hammering a nail. This is the natural position of the wrist. Now imagine hammering a nail with the flat side of the hammer. This is the position a regular mouse forces your wrist into. Your forearm is twisted. It's bad ergonomics.

You can also buy foot pedals that act as the clicker button. This helps keep tension out of the wrist.

They say you need to rest your whole forearm on something. If you're using a trackball or mouse, and your arm isn't resting on a table or arm of a chair, you're causing more tension in your wrist.

People say the glucosamine-chondroitin supplements are supposed to help regenerate cartilidge. Between that, and the ergonomic mouse, and the footpedals, it's possible to overcome serious wrist problems.
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#14
5th November 2007
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Playing the Piano is a good way to not get rsi
Im sure a good Physio can suggest some other excercises
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5th November 2007
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I suggest using a Kensington Expert Mouse with your opposite hand...so if a righty, learn to mouse lefty. I did this back in the early 90's at first signs of pain and never had another problem. And I moused for a living 16 hours a day for a while back then.

Set your buttons up well...I have 4 buttons and a big scroll wheel to work with, so one is click, another is right-click, one is double click and another is close window. The dominant button can be pressed with the thumb.

You might be clicking too hard...some people click and key as if they are attacking something with it, and they don't even notice they're doing it. Relax. A click is a click no matter how furious you do it.

Be sure NEVER to bend your fingers back, which you might think you want to do, but really screws things up badly. I have doubts about all those stretching exercises for mouse/keyboard rsi. Rest is probably better. You could repetitively strain by stretching too, and just make things worse and worse. Breaking the pattern by using the opposite hand should at least give you a new lease on life.
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5th November 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redroom View Post
Playing the Piano is a good way to not get rsi
Im sure a good Physio can suggest some other excercises
Actually playing piano and rsi is a very bad combination. I know a couple of piano players who had to end their career because of rsi!
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5th November 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strauss View Post
Actually playing piano and rsi is a very bad combination. I know a couple of piano players who had to end their career because of rsi!

My Physio seems to think otherwise he says he has never seen a Piano player with Rsi however Rhumatic problems are very common.
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5th November 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redroom View Post
My Physio seems to think otherwise he says he has never seen a Piano player with Rsi however Rhumatic problems are very common.
I've certainly read about piano players with RSI. Maybe they just won't go to your physiotherapist because he doesn't believe that they exist? :D
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5th November 2007
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Quote:
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I've certainly read about piano players with RSI. Maybe they just won't go to your physiotherapist because he doesn't believe that they exist? :D

Maybe they have an incorrect diagnosis

Ive been a Piano player since the age of 8 Im 35 now and the only problems Ive had are Rhumatic my fault as I broke a knuckle in a scrap.
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5th November 2007
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This thread piqued my interest because I am recovering from some wrist pain. Not to sure exactly what it was... I don't have benefits for another couple weeks so I held off going to the doctor.

I am a video editor by trade, so I thought it was all the OT that I had been putting in. However, after researching proper mouse and keyboard ergonomics I found that it was my home setup with my tablet that was giving me the most difficulty!

I don't suggest skipping out on a visit to a doctor, but taking a look at your current setup (chair height, keyboard angle) and stretching often (don't over do it!) can really improve things. Also, stretching before playing piano or drums. I never did this before, but I'm seeing the benefits now; mainly, not tossing a 5B into the audience due to wrist spasms!
#21
5th November 2007
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After MANY years doing fine I started to get rsi after a few months of non-stop 15 hr days...
So I tried a trackball but felt the resistance of moving the big ball wasn't good for me.
Then I bought this:
Ergonomic Mouse
VERY nice and there is absolutely NO resistance with it...

Plus using USBoverdrive (for Mac) I set 1 button to click, another 2xClick, and most importantly 1 to Click-Lock!
Click-lock is a must so ya don't have to keep pressure down on a button as ya move screen elements, params or a fadder... this is especially useful for media editors!

Further, I tried using some 3rd party driver enhancers but felt the stability of getting the curser on something took too much effort... I ended up using what I believe is the standard Apple 'mouse/touchpad' setting' in Sys Prefs which includes being able to tap click or double click on the pad surface itself AND more importantly scroll up/down by using the right side of the pad (like MacBooks can do) + with a cmd key it can scroll left/right too (great for editing! BTW, sometimes it's CMD other aps Shift for some odd reason) .

I recently bought a small Wacom which I use just to have a variation in position and use style
but feel I need to use too much effort to click on a small button and especially push down to register a click (forget about using the pen button which is too stiff!), it could be my settings though.

Curious about the 'foot switch' clicker??! Any info where to see that?
(I'm a drummer so I could see that working well!)
My 2cents...
#22
5th November 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redroom View Post
Maybe they have an incorrect diagnosis

Ive been a Piano player since the age of 8 Im 35 now and the only problems Ive had are Rhumatic my fault as I broke a knuckle in a scrap.
I know several professional piano players who have had to curtail their activities due to RSI. fwiw. Apparently, if you play piano in a way that doesn't work for your hands/fingers, etc., and isn't relaxed (a lot of great piano players play pretty tense), then you can have problems. (and if you're a tense mouser and also a tense piano player, then playing piano isn't going to help you relax your muscles...)
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5th November 2007
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I have used both trackball (Kensington Turbo Mouse) and wacom tablet. The trackball is great but not immune to wrist/finger fatigue when using for very prolonged periods. The wacom tablet is really good. Over the past three years I had been doing really gruelling, long hours every day editing projects. I was having major problems with my hand and referred pain in my back and also ended up with a serious pinched nerve in my left shoulder (from constant right hand use). Once I switched to the tablet, (and had a few chiropractic adjustments) all those problems disappeared. It didn't matter how many hours for how many weeks I worked, the tablet completely eliminated any rsi/fatigue type problems. HOWEVER, it takes about three days to get used to using it and that is the challenge - to hang in there while getting used to it. To endure being slower than a five year old and continuing to believe that you will actually be as fast on this as you are on a mouse. - which you will be, maybe even faster. I have the smallest wacom tablet which I find works well - I have to move very minimally to get from one side of the screen to the other. I'm currently using it in Pro Tools 7 with no compatibility issues.
#24
6th November 2007
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there is some really good advice here. that i would like to agree with.

for starters i would try the OPPOSITE hand. there is a learning curve, but your hurting hand will not recover until it gets some REST.

of course you will need good positioning and posture with your new hand.

then i would agree with getting a differnt kind of mouse when you get started again with your dominant hand. a standard mouse is very accurate, but brutal on the hand. the veriticle mouse looks interesting...maybe i'll buy it and try it out for myself.
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#25
6th November 2007
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i get it in my left hand/arm (i use a mouse left handed)

hurts my ring finger and pinky and all the way up to my elbow. i stretch and exercise it but still it hurts, not so bad lately... it comes and goes.
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6th November 2007
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Piano players most certainly can get RSI from their playing. It doesn't mean however that it's a bad combination with RSI caused from something else. Not all RSI is rooted in the same place. Tennis players and people wiping floors get something similar, but it's nothing like my RSI.
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6th November 2007
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I'm a phsyio in my day job. Orthopedic / hand specialist. (over 17 years)

All those gadgets are not the solution.

This really is just common sense:

RSI = Repetitive Strain Injury

The Injury is caused by repetition. Using a trackball (different device) will only give you short term relief because it is only altering the position. So you are now aggravating a new area of soft tissue. The old area will feel better and you will now inflame another part of your wrist / hand.

Solution:

acute relief = frequent breaks, (every 15 minutes for 1 minute) stretch your wrist, elbow and shoulders, (flexion / extension). This works because you are increasing circulation to the joints and soft tissue. Flushing out inflammed material and replenishing oxygen and nutrients.

You can also take NSAIDs, (OTC) as directed to reduce acute inflammation.

Longterm Permanent Solution:

Get into shape:

1) Cardio - 3 days per weeks for a minimum of 15 minutes per day at your target heart rate. (a better cardio vascular system results in your body's improved ability to flush out inflammed material and provide nutrition to the soft tissue and joints)

2) Full range of motion wrist exercises with dumbells. Find sufficient weight to create a good burning sensation, (in your forearm muscles) after about 50 repetitions in 4 directions. (most likely 5-10 lbs is sufficient)

-Flexion
-Extension
-Supination
-Pronation

Perform these 4 exercises daily and in 3-4 weeks you will be significantly better. Continue 3 times per week once your symptoms have subsided for prevention for the rest of your life.

Tod
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#28
6th November 2007
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Wrist and a Trackball

I actually have some serious issues with both my wrists, had to stop playing music for like 6 months to a year. its kind of a weird thing, I've had 6 different doctors/chiropractors/physios say 8 different things. Its a combination of things, one of which is that I'm missing a bone in my wrists which is kind of strange. I use the Kensington Expert Mouse and love it, alleviated a lot of the stress of using a mouse. Every once and a while I have a tensor bandage I wear for a little added support on the wrist. One thing I find has helped a bit is those grip strengthener things, I keep it by my bed and use it for about 5 mins before I fall asleep.

Just my .02.
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#29
6th November 2007
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I started having wrist pain and carpal tunnel symptoms recently so I went to the doctor. After following her recommendations (and buying some ergonomic gear, gearslut that I am) I have no more pain.

My doctor recommended wearing a wristbrace. Very good investment of $25. She recommended I wear it at night too which surprised me at first but she explained we tend to put our wrists in positions that can inflame RSI symptoms. Excellent advice, has helped me alot.

My MD aslo said avoid putting your hand in the down position, ideal staight wrist but better bent up than down. I always keep this in mind and it has helped me.

Also, if you are a righty, get one of these Nostromo N52 programmable keypads. Belkin : Nostromo SpeedPad n52 You use it w/ your left hand. It is important to delegate tasks to the left hand, use your right less. This thing is great for scrolling, zooming and you can assign shortcuts to all the buttons fully customizable. It is very ergonomic. And Cheap! And it has improved my workflow tremendously! Like $30 shipped on Amazon. I really love this thing! Works on Mac and PC, I use on Mac.

Mouse 'fit' is very important, not all mice fit everybody. I just bought a Revolution MX cordless mouse on sale at ecost.com for like $30. I tried one out at compusa (it was $90 there!) and it was REALLY comfortable to use (I have big hands and most mice are suited for smaller hands.) And it looks like Darth Vaders mask which is a bonus.
#30
7th November 2007
Old 7th November 2007
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swap your mouse hand!

seriously, i had chronic rsi in my right hand from my wrist to my elbow from being at the computer all day, 5 days a week. i had a workplace assessor come in and adjust the usual like monitor height, chair and desk (your forearms should tilt DOWN towards the desk about 10deg or at worst be horizontal with the desk) which didnt help much. she came back a few months later and we swapped the mouse over, problem solved!!! it just takes a few days of getting used to but i hardly ever use my right for mousing anymore.

peace.
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