Apogee Ensemble - Compatible with Leopard?

[Jamie Matrix]

Hmmm yes.... I'm wondering the same thing.

[sharky]

Yeah... same here. I'm gonna install Leopard on my lappy and my old G5, but I'm definitely taking a wait and see approach with the music machine.

[explorer]

Apogee driver download page says:

Do not use on Leopard Mac OS 10.5!!!

And they put it in red to make sure!

[rystro]

Are you kidding me? And how long has Leopard been seeded to developers? Please.

Now I'm wondering why I ever pre-ordered Leopard in the first place!

C'mon Apogee, get with it! If your going to tout Apogee products around with an Apple appeal you have to keep up with what Apple is doing!

[rystro]

has anyone actually tried installing Leopard with an Ensemble and seeing what the problem is?

[Max]

We are very excited about the imminent release of Mac OS X Leopard. Stay tuned to our website for compatibility info on all Apogee products."

[rystro]

Thanks Max

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by rystro

Are you kidding me? And how long has Leopard been seeded to developers? Please.

Now I'm wondering why I ever pre-ordered Leopard in the first place!

C'mon Apogee, get with it! If your going to tout Apogee products around with an Apple appeal you have to keep up with what Apple is doing!

From what I've read, Apple is responsible for the driver side of things not Apogee. If this is indeed the case than you are aiming your frustration at the wrong party. As we all know, if it's up to Apple than you'll get it when Apple damn well pleases and not a moment sooner. You'll get zero communication from Apple about when to expect compatibility and you'll like it!

[Orren]

FWIW, Apogee's communication with the Logic team is very good, so I would imagine their communication with the Core Audio team is just as good. I say this not currently owning any Apogee stuff, although I have in the past, I've used their equipment in articles I've written, and I'm jonesing for a Duet for my laptop rig.

Orren

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Orren

FWIW, Apogee's communication with the Logic team is very good, so I would imagine their communication with the Core Audio team is just as good. I say this not currently owning any Apogee stuff, although I have in the past, I've used their equipment in articles I've written, and I'm jonesing for a Duet for my laptop rig.

Orren

You would have to agree however that there were some embarrasing delays in getting the kinks worked out of the drivers when the Ensemble hit the street.

If Apple makes the same mistake twice they are going to turn off alot of potential customers-myself included.

[MatzeMillion]

So I'm the guinee pig...

I did an upgrade from Tiger with the latest ensemble drivers installed before upgrading.

Sound comes out of the beast, but Maestro is not connecting to the interface and the Apogee Panel within Logic is not working, too.
AND I get a Kernel Panic if I change the samplerate to 48khz in Logic.

I hope the new drivers arrive very very very soon...

[robindore]

Hi guys,

I've posted this message in its own thread, but thought it would be appropriate here as well:

Apogee is pleased to announce the availability of Leopard-compatible software for our products. To ensure that your product works well with Leopard, it's critical that you follow the instructions provided on our Leopard Compatibility page, found here:

www.apogeedigital.com/leopard

If you have an existing Apogee software CD or a previously downloaded installer, do not use it with Leopard. Only use the software from our website specifically indicated at "Compatible with Leopard".

Concerning Ensemble - due to the overlap of Duet's aggressive development schedule and the Mac OS X Leopard release, we are running a bit behind finishing up the changes for Ensemble compatibility. An update should be available very soon. The best part is that some of the cool things we have implemented in Duet will also make their way into the update for Ensemble, such as class compliant driver support (no driver install necessary).

Apogee Tech Support will be on hand this Saturday and Sunday, October 27th and 28th, 2007, to answer any questions you may have. Give them a call at 310-584-9394.

Roger

Roger Robindore
Apogee Electronics

[antonbuys]

Great to hear that. While we have some of the Apogee Guys around here, quick question...

Will the new Ensemble Update also address the controller issue with Logic Pro 8?

Thanks
Anton

[schmollywood1]

Originally Posted by antonbuys

Great to hear that. While we have some of the Apogee Guys around here, quick question...

Will the new Ensemble Update also address the controller issue with Logic Pro 8?

Thanks
Anton

Good idea Anton ! I am also waiting for this. My Mackie control still does not work properly when Ensemble is running since the update to Logic 8. But now I have the another problem : I installed Leopard and Ensemble is causing a Kernel Panic if only switched on in my case. Really cool that Apogee adverstises Ensemble to be a product that is "closely developed with Apple". We can now see how close they are working with each other and I can simply point out: THIS SUCKS BIG TIME ! I totally agree with you guys about the fact that they surely should have worked this one out with their developer versions of Leopard weeks ahead. Another joke to me is that Logic Studio even has an own Apogee control panel, but does not insure compatibilty.

[antonbuys]

Originally Posted by schmollywood1

Good idea Anton ! I am also waiting for this. My Mackie control still does not work properly when Ensemble is running since the update to Logic 8. But now I have the another problem : I installed Leopard and Ensemble is causing a Kernel Panic if only switched on in my case. Really cool that Apogee adverstises Ensemble to be a product that is "closely developed with Apple". We can now see how close they are working with each other and I can simply point out: THIS SUCKS BIG TIME ! I totally agree with you guys about the fact that they surely should have worked this one out with their developer versions of Leopard weeks ahead. Another joke to me is that Logic Studio even has an own Apogee control panel, but does not insure compatibilty.

Hi schmollywood,

I've been up in arms about this as well. I've ranted on the sticky http://www.gearslutz.com/board/logic...gic-8-a-2.html and am also waiting to see what happens. It's been a more than a month since Logic's release... I'd have to hazard that someone fumbled the ball on this one. It's just been difficult to get to the bottom of it. What with Apple being a communication black-hole and Apogee's Duet focus, we're now out on a limb.

Isn't it surprising how Pro Audio always seems to be taking a back-seat to consumer products these days? Garageband 4 already had a Leopard update within hours of Leopard hitting the shelves.

Brave soul for going Leopard on day 1! I did that with 10.4... No end of trouble. Now I'm waiting for at least a 10.5.2 or 10.5.3 before I migrate. Meanwhile Logic 8 sits and collects dust on my hard drive.


Anton

[schmollywood1]

Originally Posted by robindore

Hi guys,
Concerning Ensemble - due to the overlap of Duet's aggressive development schedule and the Mac OS X Leopard release, we are running a bit behind finishing up the changes for Ensemble compatibility.

Dear Roger, I think its a good thing that you are obviously following this thread. Now a coupe of questions /remarks to you/Apogee:

The announcement "Apogee is pleased to announce the availability of Leopard-compatible software for our products" to me seems like a bad joke as it is simply not true. Which also shows what seems to be an overall problem with Apogee: Wrongful advertising ! According to you guys Ensemble is apparently THE interface that was developed with Apple and "works particularly" well with the Mac. What's wrong with this picture Roger ? First, since Logic 8 is out the control surfaces (Mackie control) are not working as you probably know when the Ensemble is used. This problem has not been fixed by Apple since Logic 8 came out a month ago so what about the "close relationship with Apple" in this instance ? Secondly, Apogee has an "aggressive development schedule " for Duet as you say. Seems to me like Apogee rather cares about developing and selling a new unit (Duet) than caring about the ones already in place. Great customer support and care, really ! Please never advertise any of your products ever again as being "designed with Apple and for the Mac" if you are not even able to supply working drivers after weeks of working with developer versions of Leopard. I think anyone of your customers would highly welcome not being fooled again by your advertisements and announcements, but instead have a working reliable interface. Thank you

[pixelhead]

I just installed this update onto my Tiger/L8 machine and my mackies are working now.

[robindore]

Hi,

The new Leopard-compatible versions of our software also resolve issues with control surfaces and Logic 8.

I can understand the frustration of learning that Ensemble isn't quite yet compatible, but we're confident that new software will be available very quickly; we're working 7 days a week to accomplish this. Of course we'll notify registered Ensemble users when new software is posted.

I would like to point out that we show 9 Apogee products on our Leopard Compatibility page, and 8 of them are compatible with the new OS!

If you have other questions, or would like to provide your feedback to someone personally, we're here this weekend (October 27th-28th) from 9am to 5 pm to specifically address your Leopard questions. 310-584-9394.

Roger

Roger Robindore
Apogee Electronics

[schmollywood1]

Originally Posted by robindore

Hi,

The new Leopard-compatible versions of our software also resolve issues with control surfaces and Logic 8.

I can understand the frustration of learning that Ensemble isn't quite compatible yet, but we're confident that new software will be available very quickly; we're working 7 days a week to accomplish this. Of course we'll notify registered Ensemble users when new software is posted.

I would like to point out that we show 9 Apogee products on our Leopard Compatibility page, and 8 of them are compatible with the new OS!

If you have other questions, or would like to provide your feedback to someone personally, we're here this weekend (October 27th-28th) from 9am to 5 pm to specifically address your Leopard questions. 310-584-9394.

Roger

Roger Robindore
Apogee Electronics

as I pointed out the one interface that is advertised on your website like this: "Apogee Quality, Apple Integration" and as being "designed specifically for the Macintosh" is the one of your 9 products incompatible ?! Here's another quote: "Ensemble is the first and only multi-channel audio interface that is fully integrated into Logic Pro". Like I said before: Just don't advertise that Ensemble is closely developed with Apple and fully integrated when that's clearly not the case and if it is not on your priority list. Why 8 of the 9 products are already working with Leopard puzzles me. Except for Duet and Ensemble none of them are advertised as "being fully Apple and Logic integrated"... While it is good to hear from you that "The new Leopard-compatible versions of our software also resolve issues with control surfaces and Logic 8" I also wonder why this issue took more than a month to resolve. It is just another example just how "fully integrated" Ensemble really is. Fully integrated and closely developed with Apple suggests to me that Apogee would be getting developer versions of new Apple software and solve these issues before the software is released to everyone, but that is clearly not happening. From where you are standing now with this product things can only get better...

[lovespirals]

apogee, like any other company, doesn't have infinite engineering resources. i heard even apple's osx dev team is surprisingly small. apogee's having 8 out of 9 of their products working the day of leopard's release is probably a better ratio than any other music hardware/software company has. it sounds like they are working on getting ensemble ready as we speak.

[schmollywood1]

Originally Posted by lovespirals

apogee, like any other company, doesn't have infinite engineering resources. i heard even apple's osx dev team is surprisingly small. apogee's having 8 out of 9 of their products working the day of leopard's release is probably a better ratio than any other music hardware/software company has. it sounds like they are working on getting ensemble ready as we speak.

lovespirals, that's all very well, but to me it's not really an exuse why things should be like this. Why should we the users accept being used as beta testers all the time ? Should we just accept to be running into conflicts because a company that claims to have a product that is "fully integrated into Logic Pro" is not actually quick or professional enough to fix these kind of things before masses of people install a new OS ? I certainly don't.

The way I see it is simple. Leopard has been in the development pipeline since quite some time now with many developer versions. So if Apogee or any other company claims to sell a product that is "Totally integrated" with the Mac I expect this to be true meaning they have enough engineers working hand in hand with Apple checking incompatibilities way ahead of time. And isn't that what developer versions of a new OS are also made for so other software/hardware companys can test them for incompatibilties ? But they obviously don't use this opportunity. Instead Apogee rather spends their resources on developing a new product in the meantime (Duet in this case as pointed out by Robert from Apogee in a previous post) So basically I feel I've been fooled by the way they advertise their product, pretty much like: "if you buy this one you are on the safe side because we are fully supported by Apple and are actually making sure it is compatible".

Once again we are not just talking about the Leopard incompatibilty here, but the mess with Logic 8 and the control surfaces (Mackie Control etc.) which hasn't been fixed in a month. I expect much quicker and better support and fixes if something is apparently "totally integrated". I hope you get my point. Also, who cares how small their engineer teams are ? I certainly don't . I pay a lot of money for the software and hardware so why should I accept a small team as an excuse ? Just start being honest about what you advertise and stop making us users beta testers again and again.

Last but not least: I'd be very interessted to hear why "due to an overlap of Duet's aggressive development schedule and the Mac OS X Leopard release, we are running a bit behind finishing up the changes for Ensemble compatibility" as stated by Robert by Apogee. Why would they rather care about their new product and put their resources into that instead of first fixing things for us who already bought their stuff ? I guess the answer is pretty simple: There is no money to be made with free updaters but with new products.

[Metzger]

Originally Posted by Max

We are very excited about the imminent release of Mac OS X Leopard. Stay tuned to our website for compatibility info on all Apogee products."

Hi Max,

Can you fix the issues that have plagued the Ensemble from the beginning? For Apogee to toot their horns as this being a integrated Mac hardware, that is pretty false claim since most of the time these integrated features do not work. Even on OS 10.4.9 and lower.

[Metzger]

Originally Posted by schmollywood1

Dear Roger, I think its a good thing that you are obviously following this thread. Now a coupe of questions /remarks to you/Apogee:

The announcement "Apogee is pleased to announce the availability of Leopard-compatible software for our products" to me seems like a bad joke as it is simply not true. Which also shows what seems to be an overall problem with Apogee: Wrongful advertising ! According to you guys Ensemble is apparently THE interface that was developed with Apple and "works particularly" well with the Mac. What's wrong with this picture Roger ? First, since Logic 8 is out the control surfaces (Mackie control) are not working as you probably know when the Ensemble is used. This problem has not been fixed by Apple since Logic 8 came out a month ago so what about the "close relationship with Apple" in this instance ? Secondly, Apogee has an "aggressive development schedule " for Duet as you say. Seems to me like Apogee rather cares about developing and selling a new unit (Duet) than caring about the ones already in place. Great customer support and care, really ! Please never advertise any of your products ever again as being "designed with Apple and for the Mac" if you are not even able to supply working drivers after weeks of working with developer versions of Leopard. I think anyone of your customers would highly welcome not being fooled again by your advertisements and announcements, but instead have a working reliable interface. Thank you

This is how I feel 100 percent. I feel like crying knowing that I am not alone.

[Metzger]

Originally Posted by lovespirals

apogee, like any other company, doesn't have infinite engineering resources. i heard even apple's osx dev team is surprisingly small. apogee's having 8 out of 9 of their products working the day of leopard's release is probably a better ratio than any other music hardware/software company has. it sounds like they are working on getting ensemble ready as we speak.

If they are always having such hard times getting the ensemble drivers, and since it has never ever worked 100 percent on any OSX version, we might have a lemon from bad design that is unfixable.

[antonbuys]

Well, let me chime in on this one...

I'm running 10.4.10 on a G5 Dual 2.7 with 8GB RAM. And in Logic 7.2.3 (and Garageband 3, 4 and SoundTrack Pro and iTunes, etc...), the Ensemble is working perfectly, along with my HUI. I've also got two TC PowerCores on a PCI-X FireWire card, and a Duende on another PCI-X card, and all of this works well under 7.2.3 with the Ensemble. However, not so well in LP8.

I understand that LP8 and 10.5 are barely out, however, as several others have pointed out, both Apple and Apogee have touted the Ensemble as the "second coming", talking of it being such a tight knit unit, etc. Then, we find out we're the only ones left in the rain with 10.5. And still no solution for the controller issue (no, a work-around doesn't count).

Let me say this, the Ensemble is one hell of a product, and should get the support it deserves. It sounds great, and lots of people are exited about it. Don't lose potential sales, or existing customers.

Best luck with the drivers, hope they are out soon.

Anton

[hmurchison]

Leopard improves USB, Firewire Audio

In a little while, Steve Jobs will be keynoting Apple’s developer conference. I doubt that anyone will be thinking about audio drivers. So in the remaining moments to do that, let’s go — because 10.5 looks like it’s yet another release from Apple that takes music production seriously.

Most of us didn’t expect any major improvements in Apple’s Core Audio in 10.5 — nor need them, as Core Audio is rock-solid for most of what we need to do, in terms of performance and reliability. That’s not to give Apple a free pass; there have been some compatibility issues with point releases (10.4.9 comes to mind), bumps in the AU plug-in format’s evolution, and so on. But at the end of the day, the Mac is an OS that works for music production, more seamlessly and easily than anything else out there. Yet Apple is in fact making some improvements to its audio driver system even in 10.5:

164 Professional Audio Input and Output with Leopard Mac OS X Essentials Presentation
Discover Leopard’s support for the recently-approved USB Audio Device 2.0 class specification and how to write spec-compliant descriptors for your high-speed USB audio device. Find out how to unleash the power of FireWire peer-to-peer networking using Leopard’s all-new FireWire audio drivers and enhanced Audio/Video Control (AV/C) media services. Learn how to implement user interfaces and vendor-specific AV/C commands to control your audio device.

So, wow, in other words … in a release that’s largely focused on Core Animation and the visual side of the operating system, Apple has added new FireWire support, networking over FireWire, and driver-free USB 2.0 support. (Right now, you can plug-and-play class-compliant USB 1.1 audio devices, but not USB 2.0. Erm … or whatever those two USB specs are really supposed to be called; that’s another discussion.)

This is great news, because typically adding driver support to Core Audio would not require anything new on the application side — meaning you’ll soon be able to plug in devices and reap the benefits, at least for things like plug-and-play USB 2.0 (provided your hardware is up to spec).

Leopard certainly comes with enough changes to warrant a bit of "extra" attention for developers. Also keep in mind that Apple pretty much sprang a 6GB download on developers early this month with a bunch of bug fixes and then rather than go through a lengthy Golden Master to Final Candidate process pretty much just declared a build GM and sent it to manufacturing. Apogee isn't going to slam Apple here but all developers are a little bit shocked at how this was handled IMO. I think in the end it's all going to work out in our favor.

Don't forget 10.4.11 is coming and my guess is that it'll contain some bugfixes that have been hampering OS X in audio functionality.

[Metzger]

Originally Posted by antonbuys

Well, let me chime in on this one...

I'm running 10.4.10 on a G5 Dual 2.7 with 8GB RAM. And in Logic 7.2.3 (and Garageband 3, 4 and SoundTrack Pro and iTunes, etc...), the Ensemble is working perfectly, along with my HUI. I've also got two TC PowerCores on a PCI-X FireWire card, and a Duende on another PCI-X card, and all of this works well under 7.2.3 with the Ensemble. However, not so well in LP8.

I understand that LP8 and 10.5 are barely out, however, as several others have pointed out, both Apple and Apogee have touted the Ensemble as the "second coming", talking of it being such a tight knit unit, etc. Then, we find out we're the only ones left in the rain with 10.5. And still no solution for the controller issue (no, a work-around doesn't count).

Let me say this, the Ensemble is one hell of a product, and should get the support it deserves. It sounds great, and lots of people are exited about it. Don't lose potential sales, or existing customers.

Best luck with the drivers, hope they are out soon.

Anton

I agree! It sounds wonderful when it works. The pre's sound great with bass guitar, and I wouldn't really want anything else to use. I just want the issues that currently drive me crazy fixed.

For one. When I turn my ensemble off at nights, the next day when I turn it on, I don't get Volume control back from OSX. And when I do try to grab the audio button in OSX at the top right of screen, it crashes, then reloads.

Another weird issue was recording in Logic 8. I would plug in a synth to 2 channels on 3+4. Channel 4 would have much more level than 3. So i double checked the control panel settings for the Ensemble and both were set to line.

I couldn't figure out what the problem was so I changed it from line to mic, and mic to line back. Then the audio snapped to the correct levels...

How many times do I have to do this? When I swap inputs I have nothing but issues, and I have random pops that come out of my speakers from the Ensemble, and I don't even have anything loaded in my Logic 8 scene, or playing.

These are big issues, but the biggest one that was never fixed from day one is the volume control.

[antonbuys]

Maybe the moderators can help out here...

I propose we start a sticky for the Ensemble/Symphony/Duet. There users can report their bugs, workarounds and successful systems. Users can then also make suggestions for future features/product requests. And Apogee can chime in and, hopefully keep us up to speed. So, open invitation to Roger and Max! Calling Roger and Max...

For example, features/products I would love to see include:

- V-Bus recording on the Ensemble.
- A ensemble like interface for the Symphony system.
- A pure digital I/O system for Symphony.

Thanks
Anton

[Metzger]

Originally Posted by antonbuys

Maybe the moderators can help out here...

I propose we start a sticky for the Ensemble/Symphony/Duet. There users can report their bugs, workarounds and successful systems. Users can then also make suggestions for future features/product requests. And Apogee can chime in and, hopefully keep us up to speed. So, open invitation to Roger and Max! Calling Roger and Max...

For example, features/products I would love to see include:

- V-Bus recording on the Ensemble.
- A ensemble like interface for the Symphony system.
- A pure digital I/O system for Symphony.

Thanks
Anton

Lets start by fixing issues that have been going on for over 2 years!!!