space designer,, how to get it to sound right

[gizeh12]

Till i got logic 8, i worked with external reverb units like lexicon mpx1, fireworx and the pcm70 to get the sound i want.
Now im solily relying on space designer, its realy hard to get satisfying results with it. The SD tends to sound dull, and you need to turn up te reverb too loud to make it audible, and than it still wont realy give a sense of space and depth so it clutters the mix.

I realy dont want to waste to much time trying different mediocre plugins.

So i want to know 2 things:
1

Is space designer good enough for a good spatial dimension in a musical mix? And how does it hold up against other native plugs like Wizoo, Altiverb. Im realy working my socks of to get space designer to work for me.

2

If it doesnt sound good right from the get go,, what processing do you apply to SD to make the reverb work for you??? (i use the stereo whidening,, eq,, dual mono aux panning tracks and stack it with delays)

[j-uk]

Originally Posted by gizeh12

So i want to know 2 things:
1

Is space designer good enough for a good spatial dimension in a musical mix? And how does it hold up against other native plugs like Wizoo, Altiverb. Im realy working my socks of to get space designer to work for me.

2

If it doesnt sound good right from the get go,, what processing do you apply to SD to make the reverb work for you??? (i use the stereo whidening,, eq,, dual mono aux panning tracks and stack it with delays)

Are you saying that you've worked with altiverb etc and your happy with the sound you get? If so have you a/b the two plugs with similar presets, maybe it's just a question of tweaking the presets in sd?

Maybe you could try and use your reverb units as hardware inserts?

[gizeh12]

No i never used alti on my mac, but i read a lot of "rave" reviews about it.

[gsilbers]

then that could be it. convolution reverb has its own type of sound. i like it better. i love convolusion reverb and SD is really good.

i dont like most regular/ old skool reverbs. except for revibe and that lexicom 480 (has little desktop unit one).

if you dont like the sound then u don like it no reason to spend time on it. u have alsp platunum verb from logic and 3rd party plugs.

i think the IR from logic 7 has a series of lexicom and hardware units IRs you could try.

you probably wont care about this, but for sound design SD is the shiiiit! load a drum loop as an IR on a vocal track, or viceversa and set it to 100% wet. change the pitch of the outcome several times, bounce it and load those AIFF into the EXS sampler.

[steff3]

i think if convolution sounds good or not also depends on the music. It might sound better for classical music and worse for Rock music.

personally I most often prefer Space Designers synthesized responses or algo reverbs lately.
I do not have Logic 8 but between Space Designer (LP 6/7), Kontakt convolution engine and Origami I found Space Designer to be better than Kontakt convolution and not always as good as Origami.
In the end it also depends a lot on the IRs ..... (but even with same IRs there are differences)

Best

[Dubster]

I have Altiverb, Space Designer, TL Space Native (PT only) as well as the UAD-1 Plate 140 and RealVerb Pro. Of the convolution verbs, I like Altiberb and Space Designer best. Altiverb's plates seem to be the best among all of them, but the Space Designer plates aren't bad. I've been using a lot of the newer Drum Room presets in Space Designer. Don't know if that helps.

[colinmiller]

I have Altiverb and SD and I make my own IRs. I too have never been able to get SD to sound right whereas I don't have much issue with Altiverb. However I have not played with SD since 8 was released so there could be some improvements. I know they added multichannel sampling which prevented me from making my own IRs in SD before. I had assumed the problem was a lack of ability to record true stereo IRs and now that that limitation has been overcome, I need to do some more listening.

[dlmorley]

I think with space designer you have to make sure all the parameters are reset. I haven't delved deep, but it is not as simple as altiverb so easier to NOT get the results you want. Altiverb is excellent and I have done a couple of IR's that sounded fine on SD, but had to adjust many parameters first.

hopefully I can find a simple way to make totally neutral reverbs on it (maybe by reading the manual first! )

[Tui]

I found the same, in that SD (or Altiverb) fail miserably with regard to providing a sense of depth. I just don't use SD anymore, but go back to my TC M3000 and Eventide Eclipse instead. Instant gratification.

[gizeh12]

Originally Posted by Tui

I found the same, in that SD (or Altiverb) fail miserably with regard to providing a sense of depth. I just don't use SD anymore, but go back to my TC M3000 and Eventide Eclipse instead. Instant gratification.

Ey Tui, sounds your ears are just as "spoiled" as mine having used hardware units compared with soft plugs.


how do you use your hardware units with Logic? How do you manage delay / latency problems?

To my ears, the biggest trouble with all the software verbs (not the dsp-powered ones) is that they do sound like reverb, but dont provide depth and spatial information in the mix. So these verbs are very misleading to a lot of users who dont have the hardware goodies in comparison. Maybe its a matter of taste to, there are a lot of people ditching their hardware for soft plugs like altiverb.

[dlmorley]

I think a combination is nice. I like Altiverb and SD is fine, but I need to learn it a bit more I think.
My main reverbs will always be hardware (EMT mainly), much like I will always have an analogue console for mixing, but the convolution reverbs can sound great if tweaked and placed well.

[gizeh12]

What do you mean by combination?? Do you stack those reverbs? Or do you just use both in the same project??

[Charlie-O]

I usually pick 2 diffrent plates, one short, one long, on two diffrent auxillarys. Than splash the given track with a bit of both. It also helps to turn the Aux tracks down half way, so you can send a healthy signal withoout drowning the track in verb. Sometimes its down more than half. Having the Lexicon 960l and Tc 6000 impulse responses help as well.

[gizeh12]

Originally Posted by Charlie-O

I usually pick 2 diffrent plates, one short, one long, on two diffrent auxillarys. Than splash the given track with a bit of both.

Exactely, these are the intelligent ways of routing audio ITB, to me these tricks are the only way to get a good sound out of the box. Just stacking your reverbs on one aux is much less efficient because you get all those grey tasteless early reflections all over the place ,,,, juk

Where did you get those impulse responses,, i hope they are free

[Lwilliam]

Maybe you should try downloading some of the free IRs available for SD. I downloaded some EMT250 plate IRs, Westlake Studios, etc from logicprohelp.com

I think they also have some Lexicon 960 or 480 IRs which I've also used. If you prefer the "sound" of Lexicon reverbs, this is a good way to get close.

Also check out northernsounds.com for free IRs.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by gizeh12

What do you mean by combination?? Do you stack those reverbs? Or do you just use both in the same project??

I meant I use both on a project. I also stack reverbs sometimes but then, 2 hardware units.
Hardware certainly rules for me (and I'm lucky to have nice units), but I have no problem using SD and if it was all I had, I would still be able to get quality recordings done.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by gizeh12

Ey Tui, sounds your ears are just as "spoiled" as mine having used hardware units compared with soft plugs.


how do you use your hardware units with Logic? How do you manage delay / latency problems?

The FX units are hooked up via a RME Digiface. Latency is not much of a problem for me, since I mostly record samples/midi. If I don't like the timing of anything - including a reverb track - I just shift it around a bit with the event float. Works well.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

I also stack reverbs sometimes but then, 2 hardware units.

What exactly do you mean by "stacking", if you don't mind me asking? Do you mean connecting them in series, or parallel?

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by Tui

What exactly do you mean by "stacking", if you don't mind me asking? Do you mean connecting them in series, or parallel?

Parallel although I don't do it that often anymore. This can really help 2 budget units sound much better as one combined unit.

[gizeh12]

Originally Posted by Tui

The FX units are hooked up via a RME Digiface. Latency is not much of a problem for me, since I mostly record samples/midi. If I don't like the timing of anything - including a reverb track - I just shift it around a bit with the event float. Works well.

cant you route the reverb in the cue mix so that you can hear it in direct monitoring and record it??

[Tui]

Originally Posted by gizeh12

cant you route the reverb in the cue mix so that you can hear it in direct monitoring and record it??

I guess I could, but I'm a bit of a reverb and FX fetishist, so I like to be able to adjust and/or replace reverb at any stage in the mix.

[loaf]

Maybe space designer is like those alesis reverbs - people just used one or two of the settings - I only like the studio A preset in sd, and the vintage reverb A - the rest seem to be designed for film audio. I don't bother with all the parameters anymore because they don't do anything.

(Also, I'm sure it's just me but I think Logic's silver reverb sounds fine)

[gizeh12]

Originally Posted by Tui

I guess I could, but I'm a bit of a reverb and FX fetishist, so I like to be able to adjust and/or replace reverb at any stage in the mix.

Reverb is such an essential part creating depth and space,, its just 1 of the 3 essential dimensions in music, so you can never be too precise and picky about reverb.

[gizeh12]

Did some testing, and realy,,, to my ears SD sounds like shit,, there is realy no other way i can put it. There is nothing about the sound i like, its grey, spaceless, the highs are terribly flat and thin. Tweaking the settings dont change anything, and the userinterface is not so ergonomic either. I just wont use the plugin anymore. Too bad,

[initialsBB]

Hmm. I'm not crazy about a lot of the impulses that come with Space Designer compared to the ones that come with Altiverb but surely you're being a little too harsh there. It's a simple convolution reverb so it's only as good as the impulses you put into it.

[gizeh12]

Originally Posted by Lwilliam

Maybe you should try downloading some of the free IRs available for SD. I downloaded some EMT250 plate IRs, Westlake Studios, etc from logicprohelp.com

I think they also have some Lexicon 960 or 480 IRs which I've also used. If you prefer the "sound" of Lexicon reverbs, this is a good way to get close.

Also check out northernsounds.com for free IRs.

thanx Lwilliam,, ill check them out

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by gizeh12

Did some testing, and realy,,, to my ears SD sounds like shit,, there is realy no other way i can put it. There is nothing about the sound i like, its grey, spaceless, the highs are terribly flat and thin. Tweaking the settings dont change anything, and the userinterface is not so ergonomic either. I just wont use the plugin anymore. Too bad,

I'd agree except I tweaked and added some IR's I made and it gets better. Altiverb is better I think (but costs as much as the whole logic package), but I have got a few patches I am happy with on SD using my EMT246.

[jordanh]

thanks for the links, i cant wait to try some new IR's!

[aeonlux]

For the electronic sources I am processing, I found convolution reverbs to be unsatisfying when compared and contrasted with the algorithmic reverbs available to me in the hardware units I own.


cheers,
Ian

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by gizeh12

Did some testing, and realy,,, to my ears SD sounds like shit,, there is realy no other way i can put it. There is nothing about the sound i like, its grey, spaceless, the highs are terribly flat and thin. Tweaking the settings dont change anything, and the userinterface is not so ergonomic either. I just wont use the plugin anymore. Too bad,

I tend to agree, but I would phrase it slightly differently.

I prefer other IRs or algorithm based reverb such as the CSR.