space designer,, how to get it to sound right

[kelldammit]

it's probably mostly the ir's but i've never been particularly happy with sd, in 7 or 8.
altiverb i like more, and even then, sometimes, i just prefer not to use convolution at all. i have artsacoustic reverb, and like it very much...and am contemplating snagging the sonnox verb (to round out the sonnox collection) as well. i've likewise heard great things about csr, and the new verb from virsyn looks kinda cool, but i just don't want the extra dongles...


kell

[zmix]

Originally Posted by gizeh12

Till i got logic 8, i worked with external reverb units like lexicon mpx1, fireworx and the pcm70 to get the sound i want.
Now im solily relying on space designer, its realy hard to get satisfying results with it. The SD tends to sound dull, and you need to turn up te reverb too loud to make it audible, and than it still wont realy give a sense of space and depth so it clutters the mix.

I realy dont want to waste to much time trying different mediocre plugins.

So i want to know 2 things:
1

Is space designer good enough for a good spatial dimension in a musical mix? And how does it hold up against other native plugs like Wizoo, Altiverb. Im realy working my socks of to get space designer to work for me.

2

If it doesnt sound good right from the get go,, what processing do you apply to SD to make the reverb work for you??? (i use the stereo whidening,, eq,, dual mono aux panning tracks and stack it with delays)

I think that Space Designer is easily as good as any other convolution based reverb,
but there is a much bigger issue with convolution / sampled reverb, and it is this factor that I think you are reacting to.

Simply put, no convolution reverb can duplicate the subtle modulations that are present in nearly every hardware reverb, and these modulations are in fact present in actual acoustic spaces due to temperture differences, air movement, etc.
Convolution can only take a static 'snapshot' of the refection patterns and recreate those.
They cannot recreate movement, only position. IR based reverbs would make Heisenberg laugh!

There are very very few plugin reverbs that have any sort of parameter conrtrol like the top hardware boxes, and those big hardware boxes have thousands of parameters which were tweaked by the designers and are unavailable to the end user.
I still use a digital reverb from 1978, and it imparts a particular yet intangible quality that nothing can match.

The beauty of Space Designer is that it cost you nothing, and you are free NOT to use it..!!

[gizeh12]

Originally Posted by zmix

I think that Space Designer is easily as good as any other convolution based reverb,
but there is a much bigger issue with convolution / sampled reverb, and it is this factor that I think you are reacting to.

Simply put, no convolution reverb can duplicate the subtle modulations that are present in nearly every hardware reverb, and these modulations are in fact present in actual acoustic spaces due to temperture differences, air movement, etc.
Convolution can only take a static 'snapshot' of the refection patterns and recreate those.
They cannot recreate movement, only position. IR based reverbs would make Heisenberg laugh!

There are very very few plugin reverbs that have any sort of parameter conrtrol like the top hardware boxes, and those big hardware boxes have thousands of parameters which were tweaked by the designers and are unavailable to the end user.
I still use a digital reverb from 1978, and it imparts a particular yet intangible quality that nothing can match.

The beauty of Space Designer is that it cost you nothing, and you are free NOT to use it..!!

Maybe, it seems like youre either a IR or an AR type of guy. I now have IK Multimedia CSR and it does sound better to my ears. Just better in an objective kind a way. More definition, more space and more depth.

[creegstor]

It's worth bearing in mind that SD isn't a true stereo reverb the way Altiverb is. The left hand audio is processed only through the left and the right hand audio only through the right so stereo depth and info is gonna be a bit wanting. Not so with Altiverb.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by creegstor

It's worth bearing in mind that SD isn't a true stereo reverb the way Altiverb is. The left hand audio is processed only through the left and the right hand audio only through the right so stereo depth and info is gonna be a bit wanting. Not so with Altiverb.

That's an interesting bit of info I have not come across before. I wonder though if a lack of crossover processing should make any difference with regard to sampled IRs? As I understand it, a convolution reverb is little more than a playback mechanism for pre-recorded reverb characteristics, that doesn't impart any character of its own to the signal..?

[zmix]

Originally Posted by creegstor

It's worth bearing in mind that SD isn't a true stereo reverb the way Altiverb is. The left hand audio is processed only through the left and the right hand audio only through the right so stereo depth and info is gonna be a bit wanting. Not so with Altiverb.

I've tested this theory and I found that this is true, but only when using the "true"stereo impulse files in Altiverb.

When using the mono in , stereo out impulse files the audio is summed at the input. This means that if you pan the input signal to the Altiverb, the output is unchanged. This is exactly how a mono-in, stereo-out hardware reverb behaves.

In the space designer, you can simulate this behavior exactly by adusting the input image control to the center (mono) position.

Space Designer, however , always allows a 'true stereo' signal path when the input image control is in one of the 'stereo' positions. This is nice because it allows positioning within the reverb. On small rooms, for example, a hard panned tom-tom will not appear centered because the opposite channel ER will not see any input from it. In Altiverb, this would be the case and the hard panned tom-tom will sound more centered due to the summing of the L&R signals.

I like that the Space Designer can create 'stereo' inputs from 'mono-stereo' impulse files, but the true stereo impulses in Altiverb (which are exceedingly rare in the library), such as the "Eternal Gaze Stage" are remarkable in that the panning of the input is 'reflected' (no pun intended) in the output.

[Tui]

I remember, a few years back when Altiverb was new, I downloaded some files from their site, which allowed side by side comparison of music recorded in a real acoustic space with identical music using a simulation of the same space in Altiverb. I was surprised to notice a marked difference, in that the IR sounded grainy and not very pleasant. I don't use Altiverb anymore, but I wonder if the quality of IRs has improved.

[HockeyMike]

I don't know if they rewrote any of SD for Logic 8, but the version with 6 & 7, it just, well...kinda sucks.

The engine itself has problems. I purchased Wizooverb, and when I put the exact same IR in both Wizoo and SD and compared between them I was quite surprised at the difference. SD sounded grainy, had less air...a noticeable difference. I auditioned Altiverb using the same IRs and it sounds much better than SD as well.

I like Wizoo just as much as Alti, and it's cheaper, but unless things have recently changed it's not going to be released as a UB, so when I go Intel I'll have to fork over the extra cash for Alti.

Obviously the IRs have to made well, but the playback plug-in is important as well.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by HockeyMike

I don't know if they rewrote any of SD for Logic 8, but the version with 6 & 7, it just, well...kinda sucks.

The engine itself has problems. I purchased Wizooverb, and when I put the exact same IR in both Wizoo and SD and compared between them I was quite surprised at the difference. SD sounded grainy, had less air...a noticeable difference. I auditioned Altiverb using the same IRs and it sounds much better than SD as well.

I like Wizoo just as much as Alti, and it's cheaper, but unless things have recently changed it's not going to be released as a UB, so when I go Intel I'll have to fork over the extra cash for Alti.

Obviously the IRs have to made well, but the playback plug-in is important as well.

I finally got Spacedesigner to sound great by getting ALTIVERB, and not using it...

TH

[jeronimo]

too bad wizoo didn't go UB

[Switchcraft]

I must say I have been having these exact same issues with SD myself. I had it on a female voice monologue and it sounded like trash. thin, tiny, high freq harshness. I tried Virsyn, Breverb and CSR and I think Breverb was teh best, but rev plugs are so damn expensive. Forget altiverb.

Any other suggestions?

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

I must say I have been having these exact same issues with SD myself. I had it on a female voice monologue and it sounded like trash. thin, tiny, high freq harshness. I tried Virsyn, Breverb and CSR and I think Breverb was teh best, but rev plugs are so damn expensive. Forget altiverb.

Any other suggestions?

You can't forget Altiverb, it's the only one that doesn't suck compared to hardware

You can't get by with cheap reverb. It will reduce everything you do to amateur night.



TH

[Switchcraft]

Yeah, I know it is good, but the price is just rediculous to me. I tried CSR and I cannot figure out why everyone is so hyped on this plug. It is better than SD, but it is still not up to par with even a M2000 in my opinion. breverb was, but I am still not blown away. I guess I gotta move ahead and coff up for altiverb...damn.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

Yeah, I know it is good, but the price is just rediculous to me. I tried CSR and I cannot figure out why everyone is so hyped on this plug. It is better than SD, but it is still not up to par with even a M2000 in my opinion. breverb was, but I am still not blown away. I guess I gotta move ahead and coff up for altiverb...damn.

Yeah you and I hear the same way I guess, I was not knocked out with CSR. It's OK but that isn't good enough.

TH

[jeronimo]

I haven´t used the plate or reverse, but the room and hall are the best ones I´ve heard.
I´ve never heard Altiverb tho...

[Switchcraft]

Well,
I have been using breverb for a mix tonight and I had all three (CSR, ReFLECT and Breverb) going and I definately think breverb is going to be the one I go for. CSR is much cheaper with the crossgrade thing, but I just dont hear it.

Ocean, have you heard Breverb? It sounds really deep and can add dimension without subtle the harsh like SD.
Damn, i hate the interface though. why do plugins have to embed preset windows?
it makes the Gui to large and is redundant to teh menu that is already there...

Sound over workflow.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

Well,
I have been using breverb for a mix tonight and I had all three (CSR, ReFLECT and Breverb) going and I definately think breverb is going to be the one I go for. CSR is much cheaper with the crossgrade thing, but I just dont hear it.

Ocean, have you heard Breverb? It sounds really deep and can add dimension without subtle the harsh like SD.
Damn, i hate the interface though. why do plugins have to embed preset windows?
it makes the Gui to large and is redundant to teh menu that is already there...

Sound over workflow.

Breverb was OK. I demoed it a few weeks before I got Altiverb. What a dumb name, eh?

Get ALTIVERB. It isn't THAT much more expensive. We aren't talking about a 500 difference here, and you open up a world of environments for yourself with this beast.



Tom

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Tui

I remember, a few years back when Altiverb was new, I downloaded some files from their site, which allowed side by side comparison of music recorded in a real acoustic space with identical music using a simulation of the same space in Altiverb. I was surprised to notice a marked difference, in that the IR sounded grainy and not very pleasant. I don't use Altiverb anymore, but I wonder if the quality of IRs has improved.

Not grainy nowadays...it's really the only verb I've used that I can hit stop on the spacebar and listen to stuff ring out without cringing.

TH

[Andy M.]

Space Designer definitely sounds better to me with 3rd party impulses. I grabbed a load from Noisevault and they work really well - especially the Kurzweil and Quantec IRs.

I also still use Platinum Verb and even (dare I say it) Gold Verb occasionally, and Waves Trueverb gets quite a lot of use.

But definitely try some different IRs with Space Designer.

[dwaynedelario]

I have had great success with Space Designer, but not in a plug-n-play fashion. It requires a lot of tweaking even after you audition a bunch of IR's. I always use it on an aux or bus and never blend any dry signal from within the plug itself. Manipulating the envelopes is key to avoiding some of the early reflection stuff ppl have mentioned. So yeah, it can be tedious to use but it's just as viable a tool as any other, and it doesn't cost a fortune.

[andrea19837]

space designer is not very good IMHO.

I even prefer OLD alesis Microverb

more space and dimension

space designer is only 1D

[Ashermusic]

If I were to load the same IR into Alitverb and Space Designer, (and I have) and randomly A/Bd them, I doubt that more than 1 in 500 listeners here could consistently tell me which is which.

[edva]

Originally Posted by zmix

I think that Space Designer is easily as good as any other convolution based reverb,
but there is a much bigger issue with convolution / sampled reverb, and it is this factor that I think you are reacting to.

Simply put, no convolution reverb can duplicate the subtle modulations that are present in nearly every hardware reverb, and these modulations are in fact present in actual acoustic spaces due to temperture differences, air movement, etc.
Convolution can only take a static 'snapshot' of the refection patterns and recreate those.
They cannot recreate movement, only position. IR based reverbs would make Heisenberg laugh!

Probably true, and probably why the reverbs in Nebula sound so much better than what I was hearing in SD.