Logic 8 Navigation Accuracy is still crap - Editing Drums Nightmare

[macleodgrant]

ok, so i'm editing drums at the moment and have shifted the parts in time and want to now time stretch the sections together to ensure seamless edits. this means using the 'adjust region length to locators' since the option drag thing only works on single tracks!

for example, i want to extend a section to reach the beginning of the next transient. to do this i zoom in, chop during the sustain of the regions and extend it to the beginning of the next transient and cross fade - sounds simple right???

so i zoom in, chop during the sustain and then 'set locators by region' but the locators just won't surround the region to it's extents (i'm not using the rounding key command). sometimes this works perfectly (actually i take that back, it's rarely ever perfect) but sometimes it won't. start point is always right but it sometimes makes the end point longer than the region no matter what i do. then i have to drag the locator end to where i want it to be. i then use the 'adjust region length to locators' function which sometimes, after processing the end of the section doesn't end accurately where it should and can be way off!

sometimes also when i'm zoomed in, i 'adjust region length to locators' and then the focus of the screen (without 'catch' enabled) shifts away from the locators and i have to zoom out and pan around to find it!

also, sometimes when zooming to selection using key command, the focus of the screen also shifts away from the selection though the zoom value is correct.

and again, sometimes when i use the key command 'go to selection end', it moves the spl to the end of the region but shifts focus of the screen to the beginning of the region....catch is still off btw

most of my gripes with logic are all navigational, pro tools is brilliant in this area, logic sucks!!!!! it's been buggy since version 6 and never seems to get fixed

can anybody confirm these issues? it's just something we've seemed to learn to live with. logic's stable but still very buggy!

[gizeh12]

In logic i produce electronic music so im not using the sample editor the way you do,, but i confirm the zooming shifting away problem you mentioned, can be very annoying.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by gizeh12

In logic i produce electronic music so im not using the sample editor the way you do,, but i confirm the zooming shifting away problem you mentioned, can be very annoying.

thanks for confirming that, so it's not just me...
i'm not actually using the sample editor, it's all in the arrange! i barely ever use the sample editor if i can help it


another bug, when dragging regions ends to where you want the crossfade to be, sometimes the region immediately after the next region just dissappears - this is in 'no overlap' mode and wasn't there in version 7

[macleodgrant]

and another irritating bug

when time stretching. sometimes, if the time stretch are is very short, the time stretching (extending) starts from like halfway through the file and only stretches from the middle onwards! can't explain this properly but it's ridiculous. when i lengthen the selection to be stretched then it works as it's supposed to

[quincyg]

a major oversight by apple in my opinion.

[macleodgrant]

normally i edit sparingly on drums, if it's a little out then i don't mind so much but the last song i worked on, i had overdub percussion and other stuff and since the original drums weren't 100% i had to adjust the overdub perc to fit so for this track i decided to make it 100% (beat detective style - within reason of course) to make the rest of the editing process easier and more grid aligned! (the drummer is fantastic btw)

i had to chop the drums up piece by piece (with grouping) and my project file with all those regions is nearly 100mb

it was doing this that has really made me totally annoyed with logic
this is currently still not an editor's program - i.e. if you want accuracy and speed

9/10 times, setting locators by region (smallish regions) doesn't encompass the region accurately and sometimes shifts focus on screen - mainly smaller regions

9/10 times, zooming to fit locators or selection shifts the focus of the screen (mainly at higher zoom levels)

2/10 times dragging the end of the region to extend it over the next region (in 'no overlap' mode) would delete the entire next region or following one!

i am officially moving to protools for editing drums until this stuff is sorted, it's not that big a deal for single tracks!

also had major issues with logic 8 not being able to save my project at a point and the screen went totally weird. i had to cloe the program and reopen

LOGIC 8.0 IS NOT READY FOR PROFESSIONAL WORK

[steff3]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

LOGIC 8.0 IS NOT READY FOR PROFESSIONAL WORK

I agree with you about the shortcomings in Logic editing facilities - but I wonder since when this is the only aspect of professional work ...... so this comment seems rather pathetic ...... i giovanni desperati ....

best

[dlmorley]

It seems that if your job relies on this one feature it is an issue, but I have been using it since it came out (professionally mind you) without issue. Comping takes, editing files, etc etc. For an 8.0.0 release it's great and any issues others seem to be having seem to me to be less than most 0.0 releases have.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by steff3

I agree with you about the shortcomings in Logic editing facilities - but I wonder since when this is the only aspect of professional work ...... so this comment seems rather pathetic ...... i giovanni desperati ....

best

we're all entitled to our opinions and note i specified version 8.0 - i'm so frustrated with logic at this point in time because i can't perform some simple functions and it's unbelievable that the developers haven't fixed some zooming & navigational issues which have been around since version 6

logic 8.0, though stable has many bugs

another thing, sometimes the 2 faders in the arrange page appear as though nothing is happening on them, no movement at all though in the mixer they're bouncing away. i have to click the track in the mixer window for them to start showing their output in the arrange

the inspector doesn't always update to reflect your selection in the arrange page.

when changing snap mode using key commands, the drop down doesn't update to show the current mode though when you click on the drop down you see the mode you have chosen by key command is current.

the snap marquee to transient function - when using custom key commands, you can't set end point to next or previous transient

go to end of region, only SOMETIMES snaps accurately to the end of the region but shifts the focus of the window to the beginning of the region - without catch enabled

option-drag end of region to timestretch only works on region you're actually dragging even though it graphically shows all selected tracks adjusting

and the junction tool only working on single track even though multiple tracks are selected

it brings us back to the same old thing that logic users are well used to - and that is you have to find a work around if something doesn't work as it's supposed.

sorry guys, i'm just really very frustrated and have wasted 2 days on editing these drum tracks or trying to find workarounds to make it work. this is simple editing and navigation, not rocket science. editing drums is hard enough in logic without these issues

i haven't even mixed a song in L8 yet or used automation so who knows what am i going to find when i get to that

[dlmorley]

So strange that I don't have the issues you have. The dual faders show what they are meant to here for example. Never had the issue you mention.
What machine are you running on?

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

So strange that I don't have the issues you have. The dual faders show what they are meant to here for example. Never had the issue you mention.
What machine are you running on?

i'm on mac pro 2.66 2gig ram 10.4.10

sometimes they work fine but i find it's more an issue when i jump around to different windows - basically the dual faders don't refresh - note, this isn't always the case. i think it was the case when i selected my drums folder track and then selected the kick drum track inside the folder and it showed the channel strips but with no movement on either that track or the output.

another irritating bug/feature is that when you open the session it defaults to the root level view of your session not remembering which folder you were in, etc.

do you not experience the issues with zoom and 'set locators by region/object' key command. try fooling around with some small regions, zoom to fit the regions, zoom in closer and then use the same key command to get the over view and see if it keeps the focus in the right place. try setting locators by objects and see if it encompasses precisely the region you selected. this was the same in L7, different projects and different computers....note that the behaviour was hardly ever the same at different points in the track with different regions though when i got it the behaviour was always the same for that region and area of the arrange. when the locators wouldn't encompass just the section i wanted then using the key command 'go to end of selection' would also jump to the random end point the locators ended at.

please try this and let me know

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

do you not experience the issues with zoom and 'set locators by region/object' key command. try fooling around with some small regions, zoom to fit the regions, zoom in closer and then use the same key command to get the over view and see if it keeps the focus in the right place. try setting locators by objects and see if it encompasses precisely the region you selected. this was the same in L7, different projects and different computers....note that the behaviour was hardly ever the same at different points in the track with different regions though when i got it the behaviour was always the same for that region and area of the arrange. when the locators wouldn't encompass just the section i wanted then using the key command 'go to end of selection' would also jump to the random end point the locators ended at.

please try this and let me know

I'm off to the studio now, so will check this out this afternoon.
Also the other stuff
cheers
David

[Rufuss Sewell]

Macleodgrant.... I have experienced all of the bugs you describe. It's typical Logic behavior. Logic 8 is a bit nifty.... but completely disappointing that these serious bugs persist through the years. $200 to upgrade and three year old bugs are still there? I don't mean some of them.... ALL of them are still there. Give me a break. Apple has done almost nothing to fix ancient bugs.

The fact that effects and samples still cache at random times is just embarrassing. Elastic Audio in Pro Tools 7.4 looks awesome... so I'm jumping ship for a while.

I've said it before... and been flamed... but Apple needs a class action law suite here. If the manual for Logic 7 says it will do something... and it doesn't... and then the manual for Logic 8 STILL says it will do it... and it still doesn't, it's fraud, pure and simple. They need to acknowledge bugs in a clear and concise list on their website, and then fix them fast and for free! And there should be laws forcing them to do it.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

Macleodgrant.... I have experienced all of the bugs you describe. It's typical Logic behavior. Logic 8 is a bit nifty.... but completely disappointing that these serious bugs persist through the years. $200 to upgrade and three year old bugs are still there? I don't mean some of them.... ALL of them are still there. Give me a break. Apple has done almost nothing to fix ancient bugs.

The fact that effects and samples still cache at random times is just embarrassing. Elastic Audio in Pro Tools 7.4 looks awesome... so I'm jumping ship for a while.

I've said it before... and been flamed... but Apple needs a class action law suite here. If the manual for Logic 7 says it will do something... and it doesn't... and then the manual for Logic 8 STILL says it will do it... and it still doesn't, it's fraud, pure and simple. They need to acknowledge bugs in a clear and concise list on their website, and then fix them fast and for free! And there should be laws forcing them to do it.

thanks rufuss. these things have bugged me for ages and i was hoping 8 would resolve it but it hasn't. i've just dealt with it and hoped the next update would sort it but i'm fed up now and just want to voice my frustration. i reckon most people here experience these issues but just accept it so i want to create a fuss about it and hopefully apple see it somehow.

i've sent feedback but i think they need to receive a fair amount of feedback on a certain issue before they accept it really IS an "issue" - in true apple style

i've experienced that effects caching thing in bounces as well so i know what you're talking about there.

anyone else experience these issues?

i'm going to jump ship soon if these things aren't resolved soon.
i am though going to start comping drums in protools from now on as navigation and editing just works there

[dlmorley]

'set locators by region/object' is working fine here.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

'set locators by region/object' is working fine here.

sometimes this does work fine, but try at different points along the timeline and with different sized regions. often the regions it doesn't encompass are smaller like the size of a beat

[nikki-k]

Hi!
Yep, same issues here, MacBook Pro and Mac Pro.

PT will do some things really well, and might "convince" you to think, "Hmmm...I will simply use PT for everything! Sweet!" But then you realize that PT LE is so completely lacking in other areas (low track and buss limit, no 5.1, absolute crap resource friendliness- second to only DP5...maybe DP is better even- MIDI editing, and more), and you hop back to Logic 8, and think, "Hmm...maybe I CAN use Logic for....dammit!!!! Grrrr!!!"

So far, both are close enough to being what I want and need, yet fall short miserably somewhere, creating this incredible feeling of sublime frustration. Ugh. Someday...

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by nikki-k

Hi!
Yep, same issues here, MacBook Pro and Mac Pro.

PT will do some things really well, and might "convince" you to think, "Hmmm...I will simply use PT for everything! Sweet!" But then you realize that PT LE is so completely lacking in other areas (low track and buss limit, no 5.1, absolute crap resource friendliness- second to only DP5...maybe DP is better even- MIDI editing, and more), and you hop back to Logic 8, and think, "Hmm...maybe I CAN use Logic for....dammit!!!! Grrrr!!!"

So far, both are close enough to being what I want and need, yet fall short miserably somewhere, creating this incredible feeling of sublime frustration. Ugh. Someday...

that's exactly it, you hit the nail on the head!

just got a another bug...in 'no overlap' mode, when shortening or extending the end of the region, it cuts the region after/under it though leaves the start point overlapping if it is - perfect. if you however shorten or extend the front, it cuts the region in front/under it and cuts at the region end point too!

[illynoise]

It's funny about all of the hype when i was complaining about the bugs, people said its your machine etc..., and almost a month later now people are realizing what I was saying a month ago!

I can't use logic 8 either in my studio at this time, for real work. I'm still using L7. I hope they get a usable (non steinberg) type of version going soon!

[dlmorley]

All I can say is that there must be certain machines which are not running it well for whatever reason as I have been using it with NO MAJOR ISSUES. I tried to replicate the locator bug. No luck. No missing fader movement, the zooming seemed fine here although I am not entirely clear what the issue is. Certainly nothing that stops me working and no crashes of any sort.
I was thinking of upgrading my hardware (I'm on an intel iMac) but as it is running fine I'll wait a bit to find out if there are issues with certain mac pro's...

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

go to end of region, only SOMETIMES snaps accurately to the end of the region but shifts the focus of the window to the beginning of the region - without catch enabled

I don't have such a key command here. What exactly is it called? Are you by any chance thinking of Go to right locator? Or Go to selection end (in the Sample editor), which is different than go to end of region?

I've had some surprises with key commands in Logic 8, but almost every time it's has been a problem with having one editor active in Arrange when I have been using the key command in the editor I thought was active.

option-drag end of region to timestretch only works on region you're actually dragging even though it graphically shows all selected tracks adjusting

Report it!

and the junction tool only working on single track even though multiple tracks are selected

Report it! Remember, this is a new function in a partially rewritten program. I was maybe expecting some more new features in Logic 8 than we have seen, but I was also expecting way more bugs.

i haven't even mixed a song in L8 yet or used automation so who knows what am i going to find when i get to that

There are improvements when moving automation with regions - improvement that I can't remember having seen mentioned anywhere.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

so i zoom in, chop during the sustain and then 'set locators by region' but the locators just won't surround the region to it's extents (i'm not using the rounding key command). sometimes this works perfectly (actually i take that back, it's rarely ever perfect) but sometimes it won't.

When you report this, you should definitely mention what OS version and hardware you're on - I'm using this key command constantly, have done this for years and have never seen the problem you mention. I must be using this command at least 50 times every day (the days I actually work with music on the computer). If they try to recreate the bug on a different setup than yours and fail to do so, they may assume that you are confusing this key command with another command, and ignore the report.

Logic 8 has been out for a month now, and I wouldn't be surprised if they would release 8.01 soon, and even if you want to jump ship to Pro Tools 7.4, you'll have to wait a few weeks - so I'd report these things right away if I were you. Besides - they are discussing minor and major bugs over at the Digidesign User Conference all the time, so are you sure PT 7.4 will be bug free in it's initial release?

I may also buy a PT LE version just for the elastic time editing when it's out, but I don't expect any software to be trouble free, especially not .0-versions.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

sometimes this does work fine, but try at different points along the timeline and with different sized regions. often the regions it doesn't encompass are smaller like the size of a beat

Couldn't find one issue. Sorry!

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

Couldn't find one issue. Sorry!

ok, here's proof...and more info

in these images i've 'set locators by regions/events' and then i've used the key command 'go to selection end' in the arrange. the other image shows the key command.

i've found that once the region is smaller than a sixteenth note then the locators won't encompass it and only goes as short as a sixteenth note. the key command 'go to selection end' will also only snap as close to the sixteenth note immediately after the region if the region is shorter than a sixteenth note

as for the zoom and navigational bug, there seems to be less of a pattern though i will update you on the issue if i find a pattern


can you confirm this is the same for you guys as i don't imagine it should be any different

http://macleodgrant.googlepages.com/Picture4.png

http://macleodgrant.googlepages.com/Picture2.png

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

i've found that once the region is smaller than a sixteenth note then the locators won't encompass it and only goes as short as a sixteenth note.

I can confirm that this happens here too. I guess I've never needed that function, or even worked on audio regions shorter than a sixteenth note! Out of curiosity - when do you use it?

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

I don't have such a key command here. What exactly is it called? Are you by any chance thinking of Go to right locator? Or Go to selection end (in the Sample editor), which is different than go to end of region?

it's a new key command in version 8 that i had been requesting for ages. it's actually called 'go to selection end' and works in the arrange and even with marquee selections which is super cool!

as for the junction tool, i imagine this is a bug or not a complete implementation. i have reported this. could you report it too? that would be cool!

i've also reported the option-drag thing and any others that i've found. i'm hoping that these issues plague other people too and that they report the issues too

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

ok, here's proof...and more info

in these images i've 'set locators by regions/events' and then i've used the key command 'go to selection end' in the arrange. the other image shows the key command.

i've found that once the region is smaller than a sixteenth note then the locators won't encompass it and only goes as short as a sixteenth note. the key command 'go to selection end' will also only snap as close to the sixteenth note immediately after the region if the region is shorter than a sixteenth note

as for the zoom and navigational bug, there seems to be less of a pattern though i will update you on the issue if i find a pattern


can you confirm this is the same for you guys as i don't imagine it should be any different

http://macleodgrant.googlepages.com/Picture4.png

http://macleodgrant.googlepages.com/Picture2.png

I do believe you, just can't find it here. Maybe I need to see exactly what you are doing and then try and replicate it.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

I can confirm that this happens here too. I guess I've never needed that function, or even worked on audio regions shorter than a sixteenth note! Out of curiosity - when do you use it?

i use it when editing. say for example i'm editing drums and i want to shift a beat backward to be in time but the next beat is perfectly in place. after shifting the earlier one there's a gap after so i often time stretch the regions to to have a nice seamless and good sounding edit. i only ever time stretch the sustain part of the notes, never really the transients so often the regions i work with can be quite small.

as for 'go to end of selection', i often like to place the spl at the end of the region and then use the 'set region/event/marquee start to playhead position' for certain editing tasks.

it's ridiculous that it's restricted to 16th note sizes

don't even get me started about the zoom thing, that's more random

[dlmorley]

Ok. What you are doing doesn't work. The reason I couldn't get it to do it is because it seems like something I cannot see the need to do. Snapping to tiny segments works. Just not when they get to being Minute. Have you tried haven't it set to samples rather than smart btw. For me, I don't see the issue with this. I have NEVER worked on such small sections in the arrange window and what you are doing is something I can't quite get.
You really need to be working on miniscule sections (I am certain you can do this in the audio window rather than in the arrange page) and I am sure what you need to do can be done another way. I cannot believe this would be a reason to call the whole of logic unworkable. Hardly anyone will need to jump to the end of sections smaller than 1/16th note in the arrange page.
But send it to logic. I am sure they will add it to the list of things to do.

[nativeaudio]

Many of the minor fixes people want - like some of what macleodgrant is describing - are wishes that more or less exist only because Logic is so dependent on splitting regions up in small pieces in order to perform necessary edits in the Arrange window. A new era, so to speak, seem to emerge these days regarding how people expect to edit audio and grooves, and maybe the Apple developers have decided that they'll rather invest their time into developing elasticity in the Arrange window than instead of improving on how these things have been done in the past - just like they hardly were fixing any bugs in Logic 7 while working on Logic 8.

I hope this is what is happening, because - even I hate to admit it, being the Logic fanboy I am - Logic is lagging behind the other DAWs in the audio editing department, and trying to implement ideas from other DAWs that already are being replaced with better solutions in these DAWs is probably just a waste of energy.

I think Logic 8 is highly usable, better than ever - but I can't really see that Apple is interested in spending much time on ways to deal with all these of chopped up regions in Arrange if they've realized that elastic time is the future.