Tracking on Logic 8 w/ Macbook pro sucks....

[guitoffee]

My friend just upgraded his Logic and we wasted a day trying to track drums on his Macbook Pro through his fireface 800. He reinstalled the OS and made sure he had all the most current drivers before installing Logic 8. Everytime we hit record there was a 30 to 45 second lag before it started recording. {We got Beachballed} We set the interface to core audio and narrowed the problem down to recording to the external drives. We tried 2 different firewire drives both at 400 and 800; we even tried an USB drive. We tried daisy chaining the fireface and plugging direct. We would still get this awful lag before tracking, even if we just armed a single track.

The only way we could get Logic 8 to stop lagging would be to move the project onto the main drive of the laptop.... Wich is totally A$$, and no way to work... This problem occured on new projects in 8 and opening old projects from 7.2 into 8...

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Or have a clue how to remedy this?

[yoink]

Originally Posted by guitoffee

My friend just upgraded his Logic and we wasted a day trying to track drums on his Macbook Pro through his fireface 800. He reinstalled the OS and made sure he had all the most current drivers before installing Logic 8. Everytime we hit record there was a 30 to 45 second lag before it started recording. {We got Beachballed} We set the interface to core audio and narrowed the problem down to recording to the external drives. We tried 2 different firewire drives both at 400 and 800; we even tried an USB drive. We tried daisy chaining the fireface and plugging direct. We would still get this awful lag before tracking, even if we just armed a single track.

The only way we could get Logic 8 to stop lagging would be to move the project onto the main drive of the laptop.... Wich is totally A$$, and no way to work... This problem occured on new projects in 8 and opening old projects from 7.2 into 8...

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Or have a clue how to remedy this?

I skilled installing Logic 8 on my macbook pro and went right to the Mac Pro, but tomorrow I'll do it, and hook up my fireface 800 just for you, as I'm very curious as well - I do a lot of location voiceover work and it HAS to work.

I'll keep you posted.

[Drayon]

Originally Posted by guitoffee

My friend just upgraded his Logic and we wasted a day trying to track drums on his Macbook Pro through his fireface 800. He reinstalled the OS and made sure he had all the most current drivers before installing Logic 8. Everytime we hit record there was a 30 to 45 second lag before it started recording. {We got Beachballed} We set the interface to core audio and narrowed the problem down to recording to the external drives. We tried 2 different firewire drives both at 400 and 800; we even tried an USB drive. We tried daisy chaining the fireface and plugging direct. We would still get this awful lag before tracking, even if we just armed a single track.

The only way we could get Logic 8 to stop lagging would be to move the project onto the main drive of the laptop.... Wich is totally A$$, and no way to work... This problem occured on new projects in 8 and opening old projects from 7.2 into 8...

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Or have a clue how to remedy this?

Your problem is caused when using Firewire for both the Audio I/O and external storage. Apple's cost cutting measures exposes this design flaw. Only a single Firewire Chip is used in the MBP for both Firewire ports. Your Audio I/O and External storage are utilizing one Firewire channel causing data to be starved hence your symptoms.

If you wish to continue using your Firewire Audio I/O, i'd strongly suggest (if you are not using the ExpressCard expansion port of course) to migrate your external storage to eSATA. For this you need to invest in an ExpressCard eSATA card and place your SATA drives inside eSATA enclosures for connectivity. This will solve your issue as the external storage stress will not be effecting your Audio I/O since it will use a different bus (PCIe/ExpressCard) which is far more suited to external storage than Firewire. SerialTek produce a good eSATA ExpressCard/34.

FirmTek SeriTek/2SM2-E

Good luck

[dekiruhito]

I'm the guy with the setup. First off, thanks for your reply. I knew I was being screwed by Apple but just didn't know how :( One thing... would it still be a problem if I daisy chained the HD off the FF? I know this is never recommended but that means both devices would be running at 800 so I'm assuming that the HD wouldn't be reduced to 400 speed as described in other forums when connecting both fw 400 and 800 on the same bus... It worked before in Logic 7 I am just bumbed it doesn't work in 8 ...

P.S. I just tried installing Logic 8 again on a fresh install of the OS and guess what .. not a FF driver in sight, I opened a project, tried to record directly to a 7200RPM FW800 HD and same problem. This is with only one device connected to the Firewire Bus using the built in mic as the audio input...

[HABBER]

I've got the same problem here on a 2.66 dual core G5. If I record to main HD all is good but not on external. This blows! So is this a fix in a near update or I need to alter the way I work. I never had this problem using Logic 7.

What can I do?

[nativeaudio]

I've tried the same thing on a MBP with one FW output only. With both the hard drive and the audio I/O on a hub, there's a lag of circa 2 seconds before the count in starts.

[Shaman]

Not bad for a software which "kills Pro Tools..."

[yoink]

Originally Posted by HABBER

I've got the same problem here on a 2.66 dual core G5. If I record to main HD all is good but not on external. This blows! So is this a fix in a near update or I need to alter the way I work. I never had this problem using Logic 7.

What can I do?

report it to apple:
Apple - Logic Pro - Feedback

And wait for the 8.01 update, it is a major revision of the software - not that that excuses anything.

[yoink]

UPDATE: So I installed Logic on my Macbook Pro.

Here's the setup:
Macbook Pro (Core 2 Duo) 2.16
2 GB of Ram
120 GB Sata disk
128MB ATI Graphics

Audio Interface: Fireface 800 w/ 2.56a drivers (will move them up to 2.58 shortly and re-check.

External Hard disk: Antec USB/eSata (plugged through USB at the moment) w 320GB Seagate SATA Barracuda.

I tried recording 2 tracks @ 44.1/24 and had no lag whatsoever. No beach ball, no issues. It started recording immediately. I had made sure the project was setup properly and the the project properties showed the appropriate record path to the external disk.

I had installed Logic on the laptop without any of the "Extra" content (no jam packs, no loops.)

Seems to be working fine here.

[yoink]

Originally Posted by Drayon

Your problem is caused when using Firewire for both the Audio I/O and external storage. Apple's cost cutting measures exposes this design flaw. Only a single Firewire Chip is used in the MBP for both Firewire ports.

Most on-board Firewire controllers are limited to a single instance. The same same is true for Mac Pros as well. That being said Firewire 800 has more than enough bandwidth for recording & playback (of audio... not of sample libraries) and I've used external firewire 800 arrays with my Fireface 800 without issue on location.

[SKyflash34]

Did he repair permissions? Delete Preferences? Are there any network devices
running such as Blue tooth or Airport? How much RAM does he have?
What OSX version is he running?

I find it hard to believe that the FW buss wouldn't be able to handle that kind of
bandwidth. I don't know much about the FF800. Does it have separate 400/800
operating modes? I assume he probably tried this already though...

I could see maybe if you are running +48 tracks at high sample rates AND
running loads of softsynths. Apple simply would'nt design their software
and their hardware with this kind of limitation. No way.

I will say that I've yet to upgrade to Logic 8 on my Macbook so I'll have to see
what happens. That said, I've had no problems recording 8 inputs live into LE 7
at 48k/24 bit to my external FW drive while running at least 3 EXS's.

What I do get in LE 7 is slow loading times on my EXS's.......

[SKyflash34]

What OSX version is everyone running? Wasn't there a Firewire issue with
10.4.10? Did you guys use the OSX software update or D/L the combo updater?

I would try 10.4.9 and use the combo update via Apples support site.

[Schmacko]

What are the FW allocation settings on your audio interface set to? Perhaps, if you have all of the available i/o enabled, you could turn off the ADAT i/o if you aren't using it. This will free up bandwidth.

Nonetheless, I'm not having any issues yet with my MBP core2 duo 2.4ghz with an Ensemble and a bus-powered 2.5" FW drive connected to the Ensemble's second FW port.

[dekiruhito]

It turns out that the problem was first experienced in GarageBand 08 but since us Logic users were left in the dark for so long with Logic 7, we never experienced it. I had my drive formatted as UFS (UNIX Filesystem) because I do UNIX programming on my machines as well. This ran fine in Logic 7 but I had never run GarageBand 08. Since Logic 8 was upgraded, and possibly in prep for the move to 10.5, Logic has become more sensitive to the drive partitioning.

In short, Logic 8 won't run well on any other FS besides Mac Extended Journaled.

Case closed.

[HABBER]

Originally Posted by dekiruhito

It turns out that the problem was first experienced in GarageBand 08 but since us Logic users were left in the dark for so long with Logic 7, we never experienced it. I had my drive formatted as UFS (UNIX Filesystem) because I do UNIX programming on my machines as well. This ran fine in Logic 7 but I had never run GarageBand 08. Since Logic 8 was upgraded, and possibly in prep for the move to 10.5, Logic has become more sensitive to the drive partitioning.

In short, Logic 8 won't run well on any other FS besides Mac Extended Journaled.

Case closed.

I'm not sure what any of that means. Can I fix this on my G5 to run Logic 8 and my external drive, If so where do I start? Thanks in advance.

[Studio Addict]

Originally Posted by dekiruhito

I'm the guy with the setup. I knew I was being screwed by Apple but just didn't know how.

Wow, that's harsh! Maybe I'm alone with this, but I always thought firewire was more of a hobbyist thing than a pro interface. I know I would never count on it for audio hard drive applications. But you know how everyone wants/expects something for virtually nothing these days. (Ouch! - sarcasm intended).

[sleepwalker]

You are alone in this. Firewire has been the pro external HD and audio interface standard for years.

Do you know why Firewire exists? It exists for streaming uncompressed DV. DV is so much more taxing on a computer than audio is. Apple invented Firewire for DV and it's been repurposed for many other reasons. Firewire has been around since the 90's and it's only starting to show its age.

USB is the defacto interface for budget I/O of any type. That still doesn't make it, "not pro"

Originally Posted by Studio Addict

Wow, that's harsh! Maybe I'm alone with this, but I always thought firewire was more of a hobbyist thing than a pro interface. I know I would never count on it for audio hard drive applications. But you know how everyone wants/expects something for virtually nothing these days. (Ouch! - sarcasm intended).

[HABBER]

How come some people are experiencing this and some not with they're external drives? Could it just be certain external harddrives or is mine not optimized. In Logic 7 it worked fine. Is everyone getting this but just recording from the main HD because they are excited w/ new product, should Apple address this or do I need to do something that would help? Does anyone know, Please help, it's driving me nuts!!!!!!!

[joeldadrummer]

Originally Posted by dekiruhito

It turns out that the problem was first experienced in GarageBand 08 but since us Logic users were left in the dark for so long with Logic 7, we never experienced it. I had my drive formatted as UFS (UNIX Filesystem) because I do UNIX programming on my machines as well. This ran fine in Logic 7 but I had never run GarageBand 08. Since Logic 8 was upgraded, and possibly in prep for the move to 10.5, Logic has become more sensitive to the drive partitioning.

In short, Logic 8 won't run well on any other FS besides Mac Extended Journaled.
Case closed.

Originally Posted by HABBER

Does anyone know, Please help, it's driving me nuts!!!!!!!

HABBER,
I have a Macbook pro and was a bit worried too, but I believe this earlier post explains the situation fairly clearly. However, if you didn't understand maybe this will help.

it looks like the issue has much do to with your external drive's formatting (you can format a drive a number of ways) and Logic 8's ability to rapidly access drives with formats other than 'Mac Extended Journaled.'

Having a drive formatted specifically for recording is not such a bad idea. One way to reformat your external drive is using Apples Disk Utility (located either in the applications folder, or on your OSX startup/install disk). This will erase the contents of your external drive so back it up first!

Not sure if this answers all your questions, but I hope this helps.

[HABBER]

Originally Posted by joeldadrummer

HABBER,
I have a Macbook pro and was a bit worried too, but I believe this earlier post explains the situation fairly clearly. However, if you didn't understand maybe this will help.

it looks like the issue has much do to with your external drive's formatting (you can format a drive a number of ways) and Logic 8's ability to rapidly access drives with formats other than 'Mac Extended Journaled.'

Having a drive formatted specifically for recording is not such a bad idea. One way to reformat your external drive is using Apples Disk Utility (located either in the applications folder, or on your OSX startup/install disk). This will erase the contents of your external drive so back it up first!

Not sure if this answers all your questions, but I hope this helps.

Thank-you....It all makes sense now. I just wasn't sure if it was something I could fix.

Thanks again

[giles117]

Just adding this.

I use it with a MacBook 1.83 (rev. A) and have had no issues tracking to a USB 2.0 Drive. No GLitches, etc....

Firewire for my audio interface....

Now that she is so effiecient, I can upgrade to a MBP

[HABBER]

I erased my HD and reformatted to OS extended(journaled ) and there are no problems. Everything is back how it should be.

Thanks guys

[Spectacle]

I love it when a plan comes together.

[melodic_disaster]

glad you guys got that one solved. i would have been swearing profusely for days.

Originally Posted by sleepwalker

You are alone in this. Firewire has been the pro external HD and audio interface standard for years.

Do you know why Firewire exists? It exists for streaming uncompressed DV. DV is so much more taxing on a computer than audio is. Apple invented Firewire for DV and it's been repurposed for many other reasons. Firewire has been around since the 90's and it's only starting to show its age.

USB is the defacto interface for budget I/O of any type. That still doesn't make it, "not pro"

you are correct that firewire was started by apple and for dv, but it really was more prosumer /consumer and less pro. of course, people use the term "pro" about as loosely as they do the term "producer" so ymmv as they say here on gs. note that digital video was not streamed to disk, it was on tape first before transferred. this is much different than audio where if you lose the stream you lose it all, no digital tape to rewind.

theoretically, FW has better specs and is has better features than usb2 on many fronts, but let me put it this way - apogee didn't just release a very expensive cardbus laptop interface and mac pci interfce for its high end systems for nothing.....this is exactly opposite of their new ensemble firewire ("prosumer"). sounds counter-intuitive right?

there is a very good reason for all those millions being spent on an old technology.

of course, if you read all the glossy mags you willg et a different impresion

[SKyflash34]

Originally Posted by giles117

Just adding this.

I use it with a MacBook 1.83 (rev. A) and have had no issues tracking to a USB 2.0 Drive. No GLitches, etc....

Firewire for my audio interface....

This is encouraging to me. I was curious about USB 2.0 performance with recording
audio data. My drive can be switched to run on either FW or USB 2.0 and i was thinking
about dedicating it to USB for data,and use FW for my interface.

Of course I'll have to do some tests it could fail to work on my setup for all I know.

[hampus lundgren]

I have never experienced problems tracking to a USB2 drive either.

[-Noodles-]

Originally Posted by SKyflash34

This is encouraging to me. I was curious about USB 2.0 performance with recording
audio data. My drive can be switched to run on either FW or USB 2.0 and i was thinking
about dedicating it to USB for data,and use FW for my interface.

Of course I'll have to do some tests it could fail to work on my setup for all I know.

My topic basically asks this question, since i may purchase a MBP soon.. Will be using a 002R (firewire) so need to know if a usb drive will be kosher to record to!

[6strings]

Originally Posted by sleepwalker

Firewire has been around since the 90's and it's only starting to show its age.

Actually, Intel only recently added Firewire 800 support to their chipsets, so if anything it is gaining popularity amount pro environments. (though more so for video production)

USB2 is more of a mass-audience format geared towards digital cameras and lower-res video (in addition to simple storage solutions). I would avoid USB for tracking at all costs! I'd rather chain an FW800 harddrive on the Firewire bus. But that's JMHO...

[skygod]

Been telling youz for eons now how retarded it is to record to a computer designed for computer office minutia via firewire. It's insane. There is no hardware standardization other than ANSI FW 400 and FW 800, and since computer MFGs are not required to conform to anything other than cost cutting so that their EOY XMAS bonuses will be fat, you the consumer is faaked as usual trying to make something suppposedly work that the MFG purported it should.

Record your mixer pres or exxternal pres into HD24XRs and record 1