Logic 8: Common Misconceptions

[Rufuss Sewell]

List Common Misconceptions Here!!!

1. Yes it can have a single window UI, but you can still open more windows if you want to.

2. Yes there are still screensets.

3. Yes there is still an environment.

4. "Snap to Transient" is NOT like "Tab to Transient" in PT. (In fact I don't see much use for the current implementation.)

Add more!

[Gear Tramp]

Does the 'BEAT MAPPING' accomplish what Beat Detective does?

[Rufuss Sewell]

Not even close.

[jordanh]

ruffus, you don't seem to impressed with L8...Would you recommend it or perhaps wait a while until they add a few more features?

[Rufuss Sewell]

L8 is really cool! And it is much better that L7 in a lot of ways. Almost all of the annoying bugs have been fixed. There aren't many things I can see that took a step backwards. I only wish there were a few more steps forward. It's basically a working version of L7.

I need to be able to quickly quantize multi-tracked drums. I can do it in Logic, but it's not pretty. For the record I don't like Beat Detective much either. I expected to be able to press a button and have handles appear at every transient. These handles could be grabbed and moved left or right or snap to a grid. They would stretch and compress the audio much like Melodyne... except over all grouped tracks in a drumset. All the while maintaining sample accurate phase. This could be a manual operation per note... or an automated one for a selected area. Alas... absolutely nothing has been done to make quantizing drums easier... as far as I can tell.

Are there any apps that work as I describe? Melodyne does... but only on one track at a time.

Strip silence UI is bigger but still totally unacceptable. A five minute drum track is completely impossible to strip silence since it insists on showing the entire track without a zoom function. HUH?!?

But don't get me wrong... TONS of things are improved and it actually seems really stable.... so far.

It also sounds obviously better... despite Apple reps quoted saying they didn't improve the audio engine. I'm not sure why... but it does. Blind tests of the same bounce are clearly smoother in the top end and have more ambience. The snare pops more too... And I'm not an audiophile type so I wasn't expecting to hear a difference. By bandmates picked Logic 8 in a blind test instantly.

So far I HIGHLY recommend it.

[jazztone]

It also sounds obviously better... despite Apple reps quoted saying they didn't improve the audio engine. I'm not sure why... but it does. Blind tests of the same bounce are clearly smoother in the top end and have more ambience. The snare pops more too... And I'm not an audiophile type so I wasn't expecting to hear a difference. By bandmates picked Logic 8 in a blind test instantly.

So far I HIGHLY recommend it.[/QUOTE]

Maybe this is the optimized bouncing function someone posted about at work. Supposedly this removes the math rounding, giving something closer to the true mix at bounce.

[xist]

Just a quick note: Beat Mapping was already there in Logic Pro 7.

About bugs: the infamous Core Audio Overload when you press play it's still there?

[Gear Tramp]

Until Apple gives Logic a "Beat Forensic Scientist" Pro Tools will never die.

tutt

[pixelhead]

The Only way I was able to get a core audio error was to set the buffer to 32 and use altiverb. I have not seen it otherwise. I hope it does not rear its ugly head anymore.

[HABBER]

Originally Posted by jazztone

It also sounds obviously better... despite Apple reps quoted saying they didn't improve the audio engine. I'm not sure why... but it does. Blind tests of the same bounce are clearly smoother in the top end and have more ambience. The snare pops more too... And I'm not an audiophile type so I wasn't expecting to hear a difference. By bandmates picked Logic 8 in a blind test instantly.

So far I HIGHLY recommend it.

Maybe this is the optimized bouncing function someone posted about at work. Supposedly this removes the math rounding, giving something closer to the true mix at bounce.[/QUOTE]

My copy is on it's way so I can't agree or disagree with the sound quality comments. But I do want to ask how substantial is it and really why would it be better if so?

Have you ever let your car get really messy and dirty for a few months and then take a weekend to really scrub it down inside out? Then when you go for a spin for some reason it just feels like it's running better even though it's impossible. Could that be the reason Logic 8 is sounding better to you or is it really truly better when A/B with a bounce in 7. Be extremely honest with your answer.

[casiotone]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

L8 is really cool! And it is much better that L7 in a lot of ways. Almost all of the annoying bugs have been fixed. There aren't many things I can see that took a step backwards. I only wish there were a few more steps forward. It's basically a working version of L7.

I need to be able to quickly quantize multi-tracked drums. I can do it in Logic, but it's not pretty. For the record I don't like Beat Detective much either. I expected to be able to press a button and have handles appear at every transient. These handles could be grabbed and moved left or right or snap to a grid. They would stretch and compress the audio much like Melodyne... except over all grouped tracks in a drumset. All the while maintaining sample accurate phase. This could be a manual operation per note... or an automated one for a selected area. Alas... absolutely nothing has been done to make quantizing drums easier... as far as I can tell.

Are there any apps that work as I describe? Melodyne does... but only on one track at a time.

Dude! That's EXACTLY ableton live 6. And yes, it works on multi-tracking.

[Rufuss Sewell]

Excellent! I'll check into Live 6!

As for the sound quality, I think it may just be the improved EQ's and Compressors. I don't know. But it definitely sounds better. Some people in the know are saying they improved the audio engine and some say they didn't... but something sounds better. I A/B'ed the same mix in 7 and 8 and blind tested on some of my band members. They picked 8 as sounding better without question.

[Matt Fudge]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

Are there any apps that work as I describe? Melodyne does... but only on one track at a time.

Would Melodyne studio work for this? I've only used the plugin and bundled one that comes with PT but it looks like the full version lets you edit multiple tracks. Anyone know if this is a valid replacement? http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.ph...uct_comparison

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

4. "Snap to Transient" is NOT like "Tab to Transient" in PT. (In fact I don't see much use for the current implementation.)

Hold down the Marquee tool until a solid white line appears. Shift+right arrow key gets you 'tabbing' to transients ala Pro Tools.

Only thing I can't figure out is a quick key command for cutting the region at the position of the Marquee tool (I've always used the scissors).

SO close. Anyone know?

[Ianb007]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

List Common Misconceptions Here!!!



4. "Snap to Transient" is NOT like "Tab to Transient" in PT. (In fact I don't see much use for the current implementation.)

Add more!

The snap to transient feature is actually way better in L8. You can do the tab to transient like in protools by using the arrow keys AND it works for the front of selected regions also.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Hold down the Marquee tool until a solid white line appears. Shift+right arrow key gets you 'tabbing' to transients ala Pro Tools.

Only thing I can't figure out is a quick key command for cutting the region at the position of the Marquee tool (I've always used the scissors).

SO close. Anyone know?

Ok, so hitting the 'Delete' key allows you to split the region with the Marquee tool.

So close but one problem left. After splitting the region you cannot automatically jump to the next transient. You have to reselect a spot in the region and then jump to the next transient.

That can't be right...can it?!

[Rufuss Sewell]

Originally Posted by Matt Fudge

Would Melodyne studio work for this? I've only used the plugin and bundled one that comes with PT but it looks like the full version lets you edit multiple tracks. Anyone know if this is a valid replacement? http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.ph...uct_comparison

I use Melodyne Studio almost as much as Logic. It only works one track at a time.... not on multi-track drums.

[Rufuss Sewell]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Ok, so hitting the 'Delete' key allows you to split the region with the Marquee tool.

So close but one problem left. After splitting the region you cannot automatically jump to the next transient. You have to reselect a spot in the region and then jump to the next transient.

That can't be right...can it?!

That's exactly why I said it was useless in the first place. Alright... it has some good uses. But It doesn't speed up slicing drums.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

That's exactly why I said it was useless in the first place. Alright... it has some good uses. But It doesn't speed up slicing drums.

Just adding detailed information as I dig in. Not useless but certainly seems at this point that it is not on par with what PT does.

Out of curiousity are there any other aps that have tab to transients and beat detective besides Pro Tools?

[BradD]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Just adding detailed information as I dig in. Not useless but certainly seems at this point that it is not on par with what PT does.

Out of curiousity are there any other aps that have tab to transients and beat detective besides Pro Tools?

Sonar has something called Autosnap that's supposed to be similar, but I'm not a Sonar user, so I can't tell you if it works well or not.

[uncle duncan]

I've heard about a Beat Detective type feature in Motu Digital Performer, after version 4.6 (current version is 5.1) but I've never used it myself. I know the graphic time stretch/compress feature is faster in DP than L8. It's been standard in DP for a couple of years, and yet it's a brand new feature in L8. Glad to see Logic is at least trying to catch up.

[Rufuss Sewell]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

I've heard about a Beat Detective type feature in Motu Digital Performer, after version 4.6 (current version is 5.1) but I've never used it myself. I know the graphic time stretch/compress feature is faster in DP than L8. It's been standard in DP for a couple of years, and yet it's a brand new feature in L8. Glad to see Logic is at least trying to catch up.

Eh... not trying very hard. The strech/compress tool only works from the right side of the region. In most cases I'm lining up the left side. How hard can it be to make it work on both sides? So I guess the thing to do is...

1. Slice...
a. The old way, by eyeballing it.
b. Strip Silence (still aweful UI) kick, snare and toms, make markers and then tab through the markers slicing.
c. Use "snap to transient" with the marquee tool and slice each hit. (eeek!!!)

2. Quantize in the Event window.

3. Fill in gaps...
a. The old way... Tie regions, pull back, crossfade.
b. Grab the right side with the stretch tool and snap it the the next note. (eeek!!!)

-----------------------------------------------------

This is how it SHOULD go!!!

1. Slice at transients (with an excellent UI!) a la Beat Detective.

2. Quantize

3. Tie regions by time stretch key command.

Done!

And while we're at it... Just highlight a section of drums and have Logic slice, quantize and stretch to fill in gaps all in one command! Leaving unsliced regions. All done under the hood with a nice UI that lets you adjust transients and grid (1/4, 1/16 etc...) before the command takes place. Why not?

Some third party company could make a killing on an app that does this. Celemony... where you at???

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

Some third party company could make a killing on an app that does this. Celemony... where you at???

[illynoise]

Bouncing is definitely faster also.....

[Switchcraft]

misconception:
They impemented an autosave with adjustable frequency...
sorry, its not there.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

And while we're at it... Just highlight a section of drums and have Logic slice, quantize and stretch to fill in gaps all in one command! Leaving unsliced regions. All done under the hood with a nice UI that lets you adjust transients and grid (1/4, 1/16 etc...) before the command takes place.

That seems like the easiest, and therefor best solution.

Some third party company could make a killing on an app that does this. Celemony... where you at???

I think one of Logic main strengths is that it's one app, not many. Most of what we need to do can be done within that application. The minute basic editing stuff is moved over to plugins or other applications, things get more complicated, the key commands we know won't work in those other programs (or plugins), we need to relate to different UIs, and most of all - the integration is lost.

If I would need to move a number of tracks over to another application or plugin to quantize them, and the quantized results would be played back from that plugin/app instead of Logic after the editing have been done, I would be in trouble if I removed a few bars from the song, rearranged the song structure a bit or muted some regions in the arrange window. The core of the concept behind Logic - integration - would have been lost.

I really don't like the idea of having to use Melodyne for pitch tweaking, Sibelius for scoring, the RME mixer for adjusting monitor levels or being dependent of an external sample editor. I have a good friend who has been using Logic for ages, but he says that if Pro Tools had score integrated, he would switch immediately (but he hasn't tried Logic 8 yet) - integrated score editing has been one of Logic's strengths for years, and I hope that won't change! I hope the reason Logic now is $499 isn't that they're planning on handing more of the difficult issues over to other manufacturers.

Allowing 3rd part algorithms for time stretching may be an exception, because users won't really need to think of the 3rd part stuff once it's installed, and I haven't really checked the integration between Logic 8 and Redmatica's EXS editor yet, but the idea of having to move tracks over to some other program to have them quantized is definitely to music to my ears. I'd rather pay twice as much (or more) for Logic than see it being developed in the direction of being a "bread and butter" DAW.

I'm pretty sure we'll see some improvements regarding audio quantize soon, because all the elements needed for quantizing mono/stereo audio in Logic is there already, and have been in Logic for several years, it's how these functions (audio quantize, quantize single regions in the event list, strip silence, time stretching regions that needs to be longer/shorter after quantizing them, crossfade between quantized segments and so on) are integrated with each other Logic that's the problem. It's a mess, everybody knows it's a mess, and Logic users have been asking for Beat Detective in Logic since the day it appeared in Pro Tools. Why would Apple not want to put something similar inside Logic?

[Jam]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

Some third party company could make a killing on an app that does this. Celemony... where you at???

Rufuss

Celemony have confirmed that they will add multitrack editing to Melodyne on their forums. When is a different question !

http://www.celemony.com/userforum/viewtopic.php?t=174

Jam

PS I've just noticed your post on the Celemony forum when I went to find the link.

I'll leave this here for anyone else interested.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

b. Grab the right side with the stretch tool and snap it the the next note. (eeek!!!)

There's a key command for this, unless I'm reading your intentions wrong.

[Fredrik]

The most beat detective or re-cycle like feature in logic is the apple loops editor.

With it you can create apple loops similar to rex files, the only thing its missing is an option not to export, but just make cuts where the markers are at in the region itself.

Edit: Perhaps someone with LP8 can check if this feature has been added.

Getting midi groove templates from audio has been possible in logic before beat detective existed.

[Rufuss Sewell]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

There's a key command for this, unless I'm reading your intentions wrong.

There is? That key command would basically be "Tie regions by time stretching." As far as I know the only thing close is "tie regions by length change." Which one are you talking about?