LOGIC 8 HERE IT IS!!!!

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

As for the sonics, you and I have sat in on listening test before that various friends of ours have managed to easily pick out Pro Tools mix over Logic.
There is a difference.

I wonder how people compare this. Logic and ProTools are fundamentally mathematically different, and therefor I can agree they probably sound different.

But it's like mixing into a buscompressor or not. You mix different.

Summing mathematics will be more subtle tho, but maybe it's just about mixing differently? Say for example one sounds subtly 'darker' then the other. You'd compensate during mixing anyway.

I'm sure if a better audio engineer mixes on Logic, and a less good one on ProTools, the Logic mix will win hands down.

In short my point is: there probably IS a difference in summing, but it's irrelevant. There are so many other factors.

[gussyg2007]

the way things are going digidesign will price themselves out of the market unless they come up with better cheap solution that pt le

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by gussyg2007

the way things are going digidesign will price themselves out of the market unless they come up with better cheap solution that pt le

MBox 2 Mini $299
HOW CHEAP DO YOU WANT!?! GEEZ!

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

MBox 2 Mini $299
HOW CHEAP DO YOU WANT!?! GEEZ!

$299 for that little turd?!

[Agno]

Originally Posted by mpmusicny

Yuga,

Ae you sure nothing else is different about these files than L7/L8? Apart from the fact that they sound quite different (and yes, the L7 one sounded better to me also) , i did a null test on them (in L8 ) The drums completely disappear ( confirming that they're in sync with each other) but there is an absolute s--tload of other material that doesn't phase-cancel - almost a drum-free remix! i wonder if your pan laws could have got set different, or if there could be another explanation... is sample-accurate automation set differently, or PDC ??

I'm interested about this as well.... the pan laws can dramatically affect the sound of your mix if not matched in a comparison like this. If L8 sounds the way it does in B, I'm less excited to upgrade. Yuga, give us some insight on that.

Thanx...

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

$299 for that little turd?!

$299 for ProTools software + a dongle that plays back audio and has "mic pre's" is a pretty fair deal in my book.

[audiomichael]

Tony,

Why would you even look at a Logic system? It’s about as relevant as that guy last week who said that he prefers SM57’s or 1176’s.

The transfer from Radar to ProTools makes sense... and perhaps the question of moving to Nuendo would too (as a ProTools equivelant native system). Logic and ProTools are apples to oranges. I can’t fathom a reason why any composer or songwriter would want to get into an HD system over Logic (7 or 8). Conversly, I think the only reason a freelance engineer would pick Logic is because of price. Doing so would still be a bad idea...as most (if not all) recording studios are ProTools based. There would be a huge compatibility problem there.

As far as the “weekend warrior” thing, I think it’s safest to say that most of them are using ProTools LE, since up until the Logic price drop, LE was the most viable low cost solution. I’m sure the “One Day a Week Warriors” are running Garage Band, but I think it’s an easy choice who you’d choose to be most compatible with.

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

it's the wizard, not the wand.

thumbsup

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

As for the sonics, you and I have sat in on listening test before that various friends of ours have managed to easily pick out Pro Tools mix over Logic. There is a difference.

Actually it was a bounce of a single stereo track, not a mix per se.

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

In short my point is: there probably IS a difference in summing, but it's irrelevant. There are so many other factors.

When was the last time any of us mixed something with less than 8 tracks and had no processing whatsoever. If that was common, than I think it'd be a different story...We'd all be having different conversations. For me it NEVER happens...Because we're usually working with 32-64 (and beyond) tracks, it comes down to ears and skill over percentages of resolution IMHO.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Look, I don't own stock in Digi and you and I have have certainly had conversations about the "weekend warriors" who buy a $500 piece of software and suddenly feel they have a lexicon of audio knowledge because of what the software can do. In fact, that phrase was one I heard many years ago from the guys at GC.
But do you honestly believe that Logic 8 is the HD killer?
If that is the case, I would imagine then there will be a ton of HD systems on the market in the next week or so.

Look, getting a $500 software and a fast mac pro and a symphony system is what we are talking about. If someone likes working in logic it could be an equal system.

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

As for the sonics, you and I have sat in on listening test before that various friends of ours have managed to easily pick out Pro Tools mix over Logic.
There is a difference.

So now pro tools should be picked based on its great sound Mixing analog makes the real difference in that case.

You seems to be convinced about the supperiority of your HD system why do you even care about L8 at all? Just keep on using that comforted by that belief.

[Tony Shepperd]

All excellent points Michael and I do include a tremendous amount of LE users in the "weekend warrior" category.
I do know quite a few players who have just moved out of every other system and moved into Pro Tools for everything.
With every new release of PT in the last two years more and more people I know are tired of the fight and they are just choosing one DAW.

I will buy the upgrade, (as I stated earlier) probably after AES.
I still have many pro clients that use it to compose with and I like to stay somewhat compatible with them.

Who knows where all this ends up. No one has crystal ball.
I certainly have major gripes about why it has taken Digi so long to come out with a robust MIDI environment.
But I would like to think the battle-lines have not changed that much.
It always seems to go back and forth.

You and I both know people who have looked at Logic and said it was far to complicated for them and they went Pro Tools because it was easier to navigate.
On Friday, MW e-mailed me to see if L8 "less complicated" now.
He said every time he thought about moving to Logic, it was too overwhelming to learn.
Maybe now with the Single-Window Design more people will jump in.
It's definitely more PT/Apple in that regard. More straight forward.

It's funny, I think the biggest loser in all of this is DP. Why on earth would anyone go with DP now?

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Paradigm shifts ARE interesting.
I have friends who have native systems and they get a new Mac every 2 years because of the power boost needed.

Just have to say, i've had a G5 dual 2.0 for about 4 years now, and can't see buying a new computer in 2 years. Maybe even longer, if I can chain my macbook pro as a node. That argument is moot because computers weren't up to the task until a few years ago. Now they certainly are.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

$299 for ProTools software + a dongle that plays back audio and has "mic pre's" is a pretty fair deal in my book.

Wasn't the price it was the actual hardware but I guess if you're looking at it as a dongle with the added bonus of crappy mic pres it's a pretty decent deal.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

It's funny, I think the biggest loser in all of this is DP. Why on earth would anyone go with DP now?

Yeah, that seems true. I use DP (and PT m powered with my aurora converters) but will definitely switch to Logic for the nodes, plugs etc. Everyone is going to be using this app.

I agree with the summing debate: if PTHD summing is really so much better than Logic 8 summing, why not just buy yourself a summing box, a great set of d/a, use Logic, and save some money? I use DP (which has the worst summing out there), but paired with a dangerous 2 bus, my mixes are as wide as I would ever want them to be.

[Spectacle]

It's a bit surprising that people keep referring to Apple as trying to turn Logic into a "Pro Tools Killer". As a few people have pointed out on here, and on the "Total Domination" thread, that isn't really what Apple is about. They want to sell hardware. Pro Tools and Logic both run on Macs. So, it's really a win-win for them. And then, thanks to the competition that results, a win-win for all of us.

That said, they obviously want to make the best app they can, and it is abundantly clear that this new overhaul and the massive price drop for the whole package to $499 (along with making Logic Express 8 practically at the Logic Pro level, and only $199), means that Logic is going to pick up all kinds of new users from now on -- from the near entry-level up to major studios, and from every focus be it composer, midi musician, audio engineer, or whatever.

So it looks like what we have here is:

1) a frequently repeated misconception about what Apple is doing with Logic (the whole PT killer angle)

2) a similar frequently repeated misconception by many who still think that Logic is not in the same "professional" class as Pro Tools (something for "weekend warriors", etc.)

Neither of these are correct, neither is helpful, and the whole thing just turns into a pissing contest after a while.

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by Kaveh Cohen

However the next shift, the beginning of which we may be witnessing right now, will be in the native world as the combinations of native hardware and software compete with -- and begin to outperform their expensive Digi brethren. Im sure you'll agree that it'll only be a matter of a few more years before Digi themselves abandons DSP card based systems.

Nope
Even Symphony requires PCIe cards in order to gain access to large scale I/O.
Firewire/Ethernet/USB do not have the nessecary bandwidth for large scale I/O setups.
Please look at the history of DSP based processing,
Nubus Farm -> PCI Farm -> Mix Farm-> HD Process -> HD Accel.
All of them roughly double the power from the prevoius generation.
Any technolgogy based company does not stand still on development.
The next generation DSP cards will make today's cards look very slow.
There are huge advantages in DSP card technology, additional I/O capacity
offloading DSP to make older generation machines still viable. I have know a few studios still running 6 year old G4's with Protools HD.

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Why on earth would anyone go with DP now?

Oh poor, poor DP users...As a wise man once said, "I pitty the fool!"

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Wasn't the price it was the actual hardware but I guess if you're looking at it as a dongle with the added bonus of crappy mic pres it's a pretty decent deal.

Is there any other way to look at it!

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

Is there any other way to look at it!

Good point. Wonder what the pricing on the 'stick' (or whatever they're going to call it) will be?

[noiseflaw]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Good point. Wonder what the pricing on the 'stick' (or whatever they're going to call it) will be?

Pro Tools 'Hidden' I think they want to call it, or maybe Pro Tools 'Dissapeared' if they continue down the cul-de-sac of their outdated, restrictive, proprietory business model....

From Digi, I predict a somewhat limited and unimaginative response to the Logic Studio DAW Tsunami (shell-shocked marketing guy's hanging on to the bits of broken driftwood left floating in the wake of Logic pro 8). - l looked at the website with the questions to LE users about upcoming possibilities for their LE Mbox nonsense and their approach struck me as a bit 'cautious' and ungenerous, as usual.

I really do feel for the Digi LE users, more so now...

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by Spectacle

So it looks like what we have here is:

1) a frequently repeated misconception about what Apple is doing with Logic (the whole PT killer angle)

The pro tools killer angle is moronic, it´s not what´s being discussed here. Someone claimed that apple is not interested in the high end market not serious about support etc. Its wrong since they have developed products with apogee and changed their support policy. So that was pointed out.

Then it was said that regardless of that, native could never do 24 tracks at 96 khz. Again this is evidently not true. Ok so then a big missunderstanding about what the panlaws do (making mixes sound narrower ).

Ok now we are down to the weekend warrior argument and the digtal summing buss.

This is the logic 8 thread I dont know why these points are brought up here since they are full of missunderstandings.

So if you read back you´ll see that it´s not about logic being a PT killer but more about defence to claims about how much worse logic is than pro tools HD. Moronic!

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by noiseflaw

I really do feel for the Digi LE users, more so now...

I'm not worried. I record some midi, record some audio, use some plugins. Jeeze, nothing terribly special. PTLE is WAY more than I need fore these tasks...

...Having said that however, I'm keen to pick up Logic Express Pro - because I love Apple and their software. Logic just might make me feel all gooey inside, like the rest of their offerings

[Shan]

Just to add a bit of irony to the "Pro Tools Killer" comments. I recall before the release of Pro Tools 7.0 much internet chatter stating that it was gonna be the "Logic Audio Killer".

Shane

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

But do you honestly believe that Logic 8 is the HD killer?
If that is the case, I would imagine then there will be a ton of HD systems on the market in the next week or so.

Oh Man, I just got a call from my friend saying his HD rig came down with a nasty sounding cough and some kind of rash. Better get yours checked my man!

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

The pro tools killer angle is moronic, it´s not what´s being discussed here. Someone claimed that apple is not interested in the high end market not serious about support etc. Its wrong since they have developed products with apogee and changed their support policy. So that was pointed out.

Then it was said that regardless of that, native could never do 24 tracks at 96 khz. Again this is evidently not true. Ok so then a big missunderstanding about what the panlaws do (making mixes sound narrower ).

Ok now we are down to the weekend warrior argument and the digtal summing buss.

This is the logic 8 thread I dont know why these points are brought up here since they are full of missunderstandings.

So if you read back you´ll see that it´s not about logic being a PT killer but more about defence to claims about how much worse logic is than pro tools HD. Moronic!

Hmmm...I've read it all, and it sounds like you're just backing me up here -- I'm right with you, brother, both views are moronic -- that was the whole point of my post.

Unfortunately, some people on here don't seem to have moved on, as I keep seeing the phrase "PT Killer", and I keep seeing people (both on this particular thread and others in this special forum) referring to Logic users as essentially "Weekend Warriors" or comparing Logic Pro/Studio to PTLE, seeming to forget that Logic Express exists.

The one that really makes me smile and shake my head is that there are actually some people on this thread who have suggested that the price drop is a bad thing that has somehow harmed their sense of "pro" caché or something. It was good to see that some of my fellow slutz called them out on that.

I do hope your last "moronic" wasn't actually in reference to me, because that would be, oh, just a teeny bit of an overreaction -- and especially bizarre in reference to someone with whom you appear to agree... (Moreover, when you say "in defence to claims about how much worse logic is than pro tools HD", do you mean "in response to" or "in defence of". After all, they do convey totally opposite things.)

As for the more in-depth (and useful) comparison between specific capabilities re: pan laws, track counts, etc., that's great -- keep it coming. Though you guys might be interested in (if you haven't already seen it or posted on it) the thread devoted to this sort of question specifically:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/logic...isa-versa.html

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Oh Man, I just got a call from my friend saying his HD rig came down with a nasty sounding cough and some kind of rash. Better get yours checked my man!

Wow, that doesn't sound good.
Oh well, if his HD is gonna die, i'll do the right thing and buy it for him for $1.
It's a good price for a dying system!!

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by Spectacle

Unfortunately, some people on here don't seem to have moved on, as I keep seeing the phrase "PT Killer"

And this is obviously not in reference to the jokes about "PT Killers", "Logic Audio killers", "coughs", etc. between the post I was responding to and mine. I was busy typing. But very nice!

[Kaveh Cohen]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

You say no Pro Tools in your studio and yet you have Pro Tools LE.
I have been in your studio many times. GREAT ROOM!
But it is built as composers room, not geared for heavy duty tracking.

As you know, we record orchestra a few times a year. I own Pro Tools LE so that I can transfer tracks out of PT and into Logic so I can edit and mix them there. I prefer Logic's sound and environment.

I have no doubt that there are many studios doing "heavy tracking" with native systems. I don't think it's at all realistic to think that PT is the only viable and working solution for that application. There are many other solutions, all of them viable, being put to use every day.

But do you honestly believe that Logic 8 is the HD killer?
If that is the case, I would imagine then there will be a ton of HD systems on the market in the next week or so.

I'm not sure why this thread is focusing on L8 as a "Pro Tools killer?" I personally haven't heard it to be that, and as I mentioned in my original post, I'm not looking for Logic in any way to be more like PT. Why change it when those who prefer PT can simply steer clear of Logic and use PT? It doesn't -- and won't kill PT. The same goes for PT -- it will never replace Logic no matter what Digi implements. This is a silly contest that will never be won.

As for the sonics, you and I have sat in on listening test before that various friends of ours have managed to easily pick out Pro Tools mix over Logic.
There is a difference.

Different, yes. Better, no. Picking out a mix by Pro Tools users who are intimately familiar with the sound of their DAW is no feat. The same would go for me in a shootout. I would probably be able to pick out a Logic mix. But picking something out blind does not equate to it sounding better. In the end, as with all things DAW related, it will continue to be simply personal preference. And that's fine. But as I mentioned before, the comparisons are getting old as there will always be differences between platforms.

Best,

Kaveh

www.kavehcohen.com

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by Spectacle

I do hope your last "moronic" wasn't actually in reference to me, because that would be, oh, just a teeny bit of an overreaction -- and especially bizarre in reference to someone with whom you appear to agree...

Not at you at all, but the other side of the argument.

Originally Posted by Spectacle

(Moreover, when you say "in defence to claims about how much worse logic is than pro tools HD", do you mean "in response to" or "in defence of". After all, they do convey totally opposite things.)

Both I think ehh. On the hardware side of things with the symphony cards
it seems to be targeted at the high end with a promise of low latency and a large number of i/o´s etc.

The software are different but not to the point that tracking professionally couldnt be done in logic (or editing or mixing), thats just absurd to me, it´s a matter of personal preference IMO. I have done tracking in logic, and so have many others. Now why whould anyone need to run logic ontop of DAE if they aren´t using PT, that is clearly where symphony comes in IMO.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

It's funny, I think the biggest loser in all of this is DP. Why on earth would anyone go with DP now?

In answer to your question - audio professionals. DP does some things better than L8. Graphic time stretch/compression, for one. DP has a built-in pitch correction graphic interface. These two features alone could define a DAW choice for a professional who needs to manipulate vocals.

No one DAW is perfect. They all excel at different things. But some are more perfect at marketing than others. PTLE is a perfect example of that. PTLE is the most incapable DAW money can buy, but people don't come up to me and say "Hey dude, I just bought the most incapable DAW money can buy," they say, "Hey dude, I've got ProTools now."

Granted, if DP wants to compete for the new user, it's going to have to do an upgrade and bundle some VI's and plugins. For the musician who already has a bunch of midi gear, and works with singers and real unstruments, I suspect DP would be a better choice.

I see DP as leaning more towards the PTHD side of things, and L8 leaning more towards the Garage Band side of things. I'll probably get L8 after the dust settles, but I suspect I'll use it more as a writing/production tool, and keep DP for pitch-correcting singers and doing mixes.

The beauty of these native systems, is, unlike PT, files are interchangeable via OMF or AAF. That's my big gripe with PT. PT can open OMF files, but they charge the PT user an extra $500 for that functionality - obviously trying to maintain their format monopoly. It's this kind of business practice that encourages the 'PT Killer' mentality.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

The beauty of these native systems, is, unlike PT, files are interchangeable via OMF or AAF. That's my big gripe with PT. PT can open OMF files, but they charge the PT user an extra $500 for that functionality - obviously trying to maintain their format monopoly. It's this kind of business practice that encourages the 'PT Killer' mentality.

It's good to see you back on the forum, I missed the give and take of DP vs. PT.

I agree your statement above, I think Digidesign charges for minor things that other companies give out for free.
IMO, one of those immensely petty things is charging $20 for the MP3 codec.
That's just not right and it gives the air off of nickel and diming the client base.
Oh hat fun I would have if I ran Digidesign for just one day....

[quincyg]

I played around with it today for around 15 minutes at the apple store and it seems like a much more well thought out application now.

i immediately checked to see if the things that really bothered me about logic had been improved. here are a few things that still were not great for me.

1)strip silence window is still not zoomable. very little control over what you see when stripping.

2)grouping still seemed to behave not as i would hope, but maybe i was missing something. moving one fader in a group during latch record did not move the other grouped faders. manually drawing in a data point didn't affect the rest of the group either.

3) i didn't see any way to group takes across multiple tracks. i am hoping to record 5 tracks of drums and then record each next take as a group. i only saw region based takes, which is a great secondary feature.

4) i did manage to get a system overload error when simply recording a bunch of automation moves on the in store mac pro. that was very suprising.

5) i saw no real beat detective type facility. too bad.

i will take a look at the manual now and see what i can find.

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Now why whould anyone need to run logic ontop of DAE if they aren´t using PT, that is clearly where symphony comes in IMO.

In order to run TDM only plug-ins and Logic only plug-ins in the same session.