Apogee Duet, professional two-channel firewire audio interface for the Mac

[svart]

you are deeply confused about every other subject.

I'm going to stop at this point because I feel the same way about everything you said too and we are going to just go round-n-round about this..

BUT, I will qualify this statement:

in many ways you'd have an easier time as a Mac DAW user, it's pretty clear that your strong feelings about the brand have influenced your decisions.

I used Macs (protools) for a while, in parallel with windows DAWs(nuendo/reaper) and I ultimately found the windows boxes easier to deal with, upgrade, fix, etc. That was my choice some time ago and I've not had to reverse my decision. I know I made the right choice for me and I've not had a single real issue that wasn't my own doing. I've only purchased what I deemed best to get the job done and that means sifting through the marketing and propaganda to find what works the best, not what someone told me was the best/premium or whatever the market term is (that is how many folks get into trouble, they just stuff whatever crap into their machines without research). Sometimes that even means that I buy something that nobody else likes, sometimes that means that I spend top dollar for the very best. It's all relative to what I need and how it works. I just see a huge amount of parroting when it comes to what people want and it gets old. People who don't know that they are being heavily influenced by marketing without actually getting to know the equipment. They buy something because they are told that product X is "premium" and that is what they should get. They do this blindly although product Y could possibly have been the much better choice in the situation. I only intended to push back against the 'this is how it is, use product X or you don't know what you are doing' type of attitude that is displayed on a daily basis. This is evident in the marketing strategy of Apogee/Apple, to lock in new users into a product at a lower level. This also locks everyone else out from products that would otherwise be well accepted in other markets. Everyone could win if they didn't choose to exclude certain groups.

Right now I need a quality(I know what parts are being used in the Duet and I like it..) portable interface that's in the same price range. This is a side project and until I feel out if it will work, I don't want to invest serious money yet. I do, however, want quality audio right from the beginning. There's no sense in starting off with crap, nobody wants to give crap another gig when there are so many other contractors to choose from these days.

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by svart

It seems like a ploy to get folks to move towards apple by enticing them with gadgets that fit a real need, but only if you use certain hardware.

I bet it has more to do with eliminating the infinite variations of PC hardware and the support nightmare that goes along with it. And for what its worth, theres nothing stopping other companies from doing the same sort of design for the PC.

[jslevin]

Well, look, you are still confusing being annoyed with the marketing, with your own practical concerns, with the business decisions of another company.

Those are three separate topics, and if you could separate them, you wouldn't be so confused about all of them. You also need to separate generalities from blanket statements — you need to learn to separate, period.

Annoyed about the marketing? Too bad. It's only marketing, and the quality of the products is what it is — as you and I well know. You are not going to change the fact that people respond to marketing.

Your own practical concerns — you have the skill set to spec and build and support your own PC's such that that's trivial for you. Because of that, the Mac value proposition is weak — for you. But others don't have your skills.

I could build my own PC's, too — I don't design electronics, but I did run a significant support operation at one point. I decided at some point that it wasn't worth the effort to build my own stuff or even to support it. I don't build my own TV, and I don't see why I should build my own computer. It's just a computer. Buy from a vendor with a good support reputation, stock with a ton of RAM — done. I spend my time worrying about other things — that's a choice.

Since I have come to be so disinterested in PC construction, I end up with a Mac for music production. Why? Because it's better supported for music production. More high-quality products, more compatibility, better support and more options. For the commercial studio aspect, especially, to use Windows would offer literally no advantages — except better mastering software, I guess — and invite a ton of eye-rolling. You may not have those issues.

It is a reality of the market that better music production software is available for Mac at this point. There's only two cross-platform systems left — Digidesign support is better on Macs, Steinberg support is better on Windows — you tell me which way the wind is blowing. RME, once a maker of Windows-only products, went full-force into Mac support years ago — they're considered a boutique option for Windows DAWs, but only a good mid-level choice for Macs. Metric-Halo, Apogee — Mac only. Reaper, Sonar — Windows only. Logic, Digital Performer — Mac only.

You can find threads here where people are complaining bitterly that they have to get an iLok in order to use a demo. All of those people are Windows users. Mac users almost all have an iLok already, for one product or another. They expect to have to pay for software. That's the reality of the market. Mac users would like for everything to be free, but Windows users actually think that everything is free. Again, that's just a generality — not every Mac and Windows user could be described that way.

So you end up in a box. If you got a Mac, you'd have better options all-around for high-quality audio. You have options on Windows, but not the ones you want. Meanwhile, Macs are a worse deal for you than they are for other people, because you have no problem building and supporting your own PC — so all that "it just works" shit is meaningless to you, because your shit works, too.

But none of this has anything to do with Apogee supporting Windows. You think Duet would be "accepted" in other markets, but you don't know that. I daresay Apogee has studied that very question more than you and I have — and if they really thought "everyone would win" — including Apogee — then of course this already would have happened. But the reality is, you are only you. You are not the Windows market, and believe me, the Windows market sure as shit isn't anything like you, in fact. If it were, Dell and HP would go out of business.

JSL

Originally Posted by svart

I'm going to stop at this point because I feel the same way about everything you said too and we are going to just go round-n-round about this..

BUT, I will qualify this statement:

I used Macs (protools) for a while, in parallel with windows DAWs(nuendo/reaper) and I ultimately found the windows boxes easier to deal with, upgrade, fix, etc. That was my choice some time ago and I've not had to reverse my decision. I know I made the right choice for me and I've not had a single real issue that wasn't my own doing. I've only purchased what I deemed best to get the job done and that means sifting through the marketing and propaganda to find what works the best, not what someone told me was the best/premium or whatever the market term is (that is how many folks get into trouble, they just stuff whatever crap into their machines without research). Sometimes that even means that I buy something that nobody else likes, sometimes that means that I spend top dollar for the very best. It's all relative to what I need and how it works. I just see a huge amount of parroting when it comes to what people want and it gets old. People who don't know that they are being heavily influenced by marketing without actually getting to know the equipment. They buy something because they are told that product X is "premium" and that is what they should get. They do this blindly although product Y could possibly have been the much better choice in the situation. I only intended to push back against the 'this is how it is, use product X or you don't know what you are doing' type of attitude that is displayed on a daily basis. This is evident in the marketing strategy of Apogee/Apple, to lock in new users into a product at a lower level. This also locks everyone else out from products that would otherwise be well accepted in other markets. Everyone could win if they didn't choose to exclude certain groups.

Right now I need a quality(I know what parts are being used in the Duet and I like it..) portable interface that's in the same price range. This is a side project and until I feel out if it will work, I don't want to invest serious money yet. I do, however, want quality audio right from the beginning. There's no sense in starting off with crap, nobody wants to give crap another gig when there are so many other contractors to choose from these days.

[svart]

Well, look, you are still confusing being annoyed with the marketing, with your own practical concerns, with the business decisions of another company.

Those are three separate topics, and if you could separate them, you wouldn't be so confused about all of them. You also need to separate generalities from blanket statements — you need to learn to separate, period.

And I think you aren't seeing the whole picture. Those are all very much related. As a customer, I am right in the middle of where those three areas converge and I should be allowed to feel and express my frustration with these practices instead of being subjected to criticism because someone on the internet feels that I threaten the sanctity of their own choices. I still feel like you are the one who is confused, not I. I can't expect you to understand where I am coming from simply because you don't have to.

Annoyed about the marketing? Too bad. It's only marketing, and the quality of the products is what it is — as you and I well know. You are not going to change the fact that people respond to marketing.

Yes they do. We can agree on that. Apple and Apogee have teamed up on this one and it's no secret. While they can simply say that it's cheaper and easier to refrain from writing drivers for windows/linux/whatever, I know this to be somewhat untrue. Apple has been known to give large amounts of funding to partner companies in exchange for contractual obligations such as being 'mac only' for periods of time, up to forever. We may or may not see a windows driver set for Duet, but it will most likely come when the Mac sales have died down somewhat in a year or two. We know they will because there simply aren't that many Macs out there compared to PCs and of those Macs, a small percentage being used as DAWs.

It reminds me of the time that Apple created a "supercomputer".. Pure marketing bliss. I know of no less than 3 people who fell for this and were very disappointed when my AMD based computer outperformed them in all aspects. Later, the world saw what was really the case when the testing data was leaked and showed that a single Photoshop filter benchmark was the sole basis for the "supercomputer" status. A freak chance allowed the Power PC processor to execute this filter in an exceptional amount of time, much faster than even the AMD processor of the time but falling very short on all other benchmarks to everything else including the old Cyrix processors.

Your own practical concerns — you have the skill set to spec and build and support your own PC's such that that's trivial for you. Because of that, the Mac value proposition is weak — for you. But others don't have your skills.

I could build my own PC's, too — I don't design electronics, but I did run a significant support operation at one point. I decided at some point that it wasn't worth the effort to build my own stuff or even to support it. I don't build my own TV, and I don't see why I should build my own computer. It's just a computer. Buy from a vendor with a good support reputation, stock with a ton of RAM — done. I spend my time worrying about other things — that's a choice.

If TV parts were as modular as PC parts then you could easily build your own. Most inverters for the backlights will drive a range of bulbs these days, the LCD connections are becoming more and more generic between manufacturers, the driver boards are becoming much more simplified as discrete parts are being absorbed into ASIC designs, and the power supplies are being modularized. I've repaired LCD panels with parts from different brands before.

And you are right, it's just a computer and Macs are no different than PCs these days. The only difference is marketing and price.

Since I have come to be so disinterested in PC construction, I end up with a Mac for music production. Why? Because it's better supported for music production. More high-quality products, more compatibility, better support and more options. For the commercial studio aspect, especially, to use Windows would offer literally no advantages — except better mastering software, I guess — and invite a ton of eye-rolling. You may not have those issues.

I don't see how either is different from the other in any aspect really. You have choices that are better for either PC or Mac, it just depends on what you use and/or what you are allowed to use by the manufacturers.

It is a reality of the market that better music production software is available for Mac at this point. There's only two cross-platform systems left — Digidesign support is better on Macs, Steinberg support is better on Windows — you tell me which way the wind is blowing. RME, once a maker of Windows-only products, went full-force into Mac support years ago — they're considered a boutique option for Windows DAWs, but only a good mid-level choice for Macs. Metric-Halo, Apogee — Mac only. Reaper, Sonar — Windows only. Logic, Digital Performer — Mac only.

Soundscape is PC only but SSL is hinting at getting a Mac version of the Mixpander card soon.. Nuendo: both PC and MAC.. Reaper will have a Mac port soon too..

You can find threads here where people are complaining bitterly that they have to get an iLok in order to use a demo. All of those people are Windows users. Mac users almost all have an iLok already, for one product or another. They expect to have to pay for software. That's the reality of the market. Mac users would like for everything to be free, but Windows users actually think that everything is free. Again, that's just a generality — not every Mac and Windows user could be described that way.

I payed for my software. Why would I be the only windows user to expect to pay for my software? I don't think I've met a windows DAW user that didn't pay for their software, plugins, etc and I've met a bunch. I just don't see how you can broadly determine that windows users "think" that all software is free, we have to pay for everything just like the Mac users do.

But none of this has anything to do with Apogee supporting Windows. You think Duet would be "accepted" in other markets, but you don't know that. I daresay Apogee has studied that very question more than you and I have — and if they really thought "everyone would win" — including Apogee — then of course this already would have happened. But the reality is, you are only you. You are not the Windows market, and believe me, the Windows market sure as shit isn't anything like you, in fact. If it were, Dell and HP would go out of business.

But it does. You keep telling me that windows users are mid-level and Mac users are generally more pro, and that there is much more out there in terms of choices/support for Macs. Why then would Apogee target the mac users with a mid-level product when they are thought of as more pro and obviously have more access to other equipment? Why would they continue to saturate the Mac market with their copious amounts of mid-level gear instead of tapping a 'lesser' supported market? I would think that the windows market would be the place for something like this according to your statements.

Dell and HP have already almost gone out of business. Most of them make their money on services, parts and support rather than hardware. You ever wonder why a printer cartridge costs more than the printer sometimes?

[Dysanfel]

Since the Duet works under XP Parallels, I bet it could be PC compatible if someone wants to write a driver.

[jslevin]

Over and over again, you misquote and misconstrue. You are hell-bent on seeing this is a platform struggle.

There is no struggle. There's just companies trying to do what makes them the most profitable, and individual consumers deciding what represents the value that they want.

Originally Posted by svart

As a customer, I am right in the middle of where those three areas converge and I should be allowed to feel and express my frustration with these practices instead of being subjected to criticism because someone on the internet feels that I threaten the sanctity of their own choices.

You could never, ever be a threat to my choices. I'm fine with my choices — you're the one who's upset.

I would never criticize you for expressing your frustration — though I might advise you that it's counterproductive. This discussion centers around your criticism of Apogee for not supporting Windows. I feel that criticism is unwarranted and baseless, and everything else I've said points back to that.

You are of course free to have whatever feelings you want and express them. I would agree, in fact, that this entire back-and-forth has been about your feelings, and little else.

I can't expect you to understand where I am coming from simply because you don't have to.

As far as I can tell, I understand exactly where you're coming from. You have not really corrected any of my suppositions. It's just that I also understand where Apogee is coming from.

Apple has been known to give large amounts of funding to partner companies in exchange for contractual obligations such as being 'mac only' for periods of time, up to forever.

a. Has been known to? Let's see a link.

b. So what if they did? The entire Windows monopoly has been built on anti-competitive (thus anti-consumer) practices far more pervasive and impactful than this. Until and unless Apple has a monopoly, as defined by statute, deals like that are fair game.

c. This just reinforces the point, your options would be better if you were using a Mac.

We may or may not see a windows driver set for Duet, but it will most likely come when the Mac sales have died down somewhat in a year or two.

Maybe so, maybe not. Lots of stuff doesn't come out for Windows anymore, and pricey DAW stuff tops the list.

We know they will because there simply aren't that many Macs out there compared to PCs and of those Macs, a small percentage being used as DAWs.

Lots of supposition, half of it wrong ... I won't even go into the details. The question is, what is Apple's market share among DAW users who would consider a two-channel interface for $500? No other questions matter, none.

It reminds me of the time that Apple created a "supercomputer".. Pure marketing bliss.

Again, more bitterness over marketing, clouding your mind. You don't need me, you need Yoda. This has nothing to do with Apogee's decisions or your decisions.

If TV parts were as modular as PC parts then you could easily build your own.

Yes, but why would I? That's the point. You always run away from the part of the concept that is actually relevant.

And you are right, it's just a computer and Macs are no different than PCs these days. The only difference is marketing and price.

No ... the significant differences are software and support. As a build-my-own guy, you apparently are oblivious to this.

You have choices that are better for either PC or Mac, it just depends on what you use and/or what you are allowed to use by the manufacturers.

Yes! Exactly!

Soundscape is PC only but SSL is hinting at getting a Mac version of the Mixpander card soon.. Nuendo: both PC and MAC.. Reaper will have a Mac port soon too..

Funny how you obsess over Apple's low market share, yet assign Real Significance to fringe systems which very, very few pros are using.

Why would I be the only windows user to expect to pay for my software? I don't think I've met a windows DAW user that didn't pay for their software, plugins, etc and I've met a bunch.

Well, then you've never met the vast majority of Windows DAW users.

Will somebody please help get this guy into reality here?

You keep telling me that windows users are mid-level and Mac users are generally more pro,

Nope, I did not say that. I said the more pro systems tend to favor Macs, but relatively few users are pro on either platform, and many cannot really even be called mid-range. It also depends whether we're going to count GarageBand, due to which tens of thousands of totally unskilled people are technically Mac DAW users now, which tilts everything.

and that there is much more out there in terms of choices/support for Macs.

Well, you know this, it's what you're complaining about.

Why then would Apogee target the mac users with a mid-level product when they are thought of as more pro and obviously have more access to other equipment?

Because your whole premise is wrong, and I never said that.

Just because most pros use Macs doesn't mean most Mac users are pro. Two totally, totally different statements. The high-end of Mac users are pros, but the bulk of them are prosumer and consumer. The number of Windows users that are pros is pretty tiny, but there are many Windows prosumer users, while the great bulk of Windows users are consumers with the cheapest possible hardware — both for their PC and the rest of their system.

Why would they continue to saturate the Mac market with their copious amounts of mid-level gear instead of tapping a 'lesser' supported market?

Because (for the 10th time) Mac users are more willing to spend money. The proof of this is: THEY BOUGHT A MAC.

You ever wonder why a printer cartridge costs more than the printer sometimes?

No. I figured it out a long time ago.

JSL

[desotoslo]

Hi Duet'ers

Do any of you have experience in mating the duet with passive monitors?

I'm really interested to hear your stories...

Thanks

[Lagerfeldt]

@jslevin, you are of course right about every single issue you addressed in your previous post(s).

I admire your patience and persistence, but have you ever considered this:

[Farout]

... so .... from those of you who have heard / used the Duet, would you say it is worth the $500??

I have to decide on a FireWire interface with Pre's, etc.

Thanks

[pauly]

Originally Posted by Farout

... so .... from those of you who have heard / used the Duet, would you say it is worth the $500??

I have to decide on a FireWire interface with Pre's, etc.

Thanks

Buy it. it's awesome and works great! There was one bug that I noticed on a new MBPro when 10.5.1/2 was new, but all is great. (and sounds really good!)

[inthere]

The Duet has better sound quality than any audio interface under $1500. It has better mic pres than any audio interface under $1500. I've compared it to interfaces by Presonus, Focusrite, TC Electronics, M-Audio, and Motu.

[Vocalvoodoo]

I'd say it's more than worth the $500. Although it's kind of like LE software in the sense that they give you just enough of a taste that makes you want to buy an Ensemble. :)

[crufty]

yes, love the duet. have not done many tests over others. it's bigger then you think though, if you have never seen it.

[Farout]

Thanks, fellas.

I appreciate your opinion.

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by desotoslo

Hi Duet'ers

Do any of you have experience in mating the duet with passive monitors?

I'm really interested to hear your stories...

Thanks

I use my Duets with NS10MS and a QSC amp. Works great, never a problem. I also have some actives and a Coleman LS3 switch. Its great.

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by inthere

The Duet has better sound quality than any audio interface under $1500. It has better mic pres than any audio interface under $1500. I've compared it to interfaces by Presonus, Focusrite, TC Electronics, M-Audio, and Motu.

+1 This man speaks the truth, it sounds WAY better than my old Digi002R.

[svart]

@jslevin, you are of course right about every single issue you addressed in your previous post(s).

I admire your patience and persistence, but have you ever considered this:

I still don't agree with a lot of what jslevin had to say. He's biased towards Apple and I am biased away from them and nothing will change that.

That's why I simply quit trying. I don't feel that he made any decision altering retorts or really said anything of substance. It's just that I know nothing will change. He likes what he likes and it works for him. I simply tried to offer a different perspective for those who might still have a chance to choose without being driven by slick marketing. At this point, either PC or Mac offer excellent hardware choices and both have their own selling points, Mac with it's software support, PCs with much more to choose from in terms of upgradability of the PC itself for a much lower cost.

Originally Posted by inthere
The Duet has better sound quality than any audio interface under $1500. It has better mic pres than any audio interface under $1500. I've compared it to interfaces by Presonus, Focusrite, TC Electronics, M-Audio, and Motu.

Define better? They are just a couple of ICs. it's hard to screw up a preamp that is already built for you. Just add power and you're done. The real chore when designing an A/D is properly matching the preamp/buffers and the A/D. A/Ds are notoriously picky when it comes time to implement the design. That is where a lot of converters fail. They just stick whatever cheap opamp in front of the A/D and let the performance lay where it falls.

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by svart

Define better?

That's an easy one. Record any source with the Duet and then the same source with another interface. Then play them back and listen.

[mattrixx]

My word... This has gotten very heated and off topic!!

[chk027]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

@jslevin, you are of course right about every single issue you addressed in your previous post(s).

I admire your patience and persistence, but have you ever considered this:

That is messed up!

[stevelindsay]

Originally Posted by desotoslo

Hi Duet'ers

Do any of you have experience in mating the duet with passive monitors?

I'm really interested to hear your stories...

Thanks

I used the Duet with passive Monitor Ones (Alesis) and an RA-100 amp, and it worked just fine, sounded great (or as good as the Monitor Ones would allow anyway - I recently switched to HS80m actives, but more so really to get the bass that the passive M1s couldn't deliver).

[Francis Vaughan]

it's hard to screw up a preamp that is already built for you. Just add power and you're done.

In something like the Duet there are opportunities to screw up at every turn. The PGA2500 is a pretty remarkable device - and it does the lion's share of the pre-amp work, but the chances of making a mess of it are huge, as are most of the other parts.

The Duet is remarkable on a number of fronts. It is bus powered, and has a huge and complex power supply section. It upconverts the bus power (which is allowed to vary quite dramatically) 12V, and then feeds a whole swag of converters that provide +3 +/-5 +/- 7.5 and +48V. It seems likely that the power converters are synced to the sample clock to avoid all sorts of nasties.

PCB layout is a critical element in a device like this, the Duet uses a 6 layer board. That is pretty unusual, and I feel probably plays a very significant part in the success of the design. The ability to control circulating currents and ground returns in a mixed mode system is crucial - and is probably the place where more designs fail than any other.

In many ways the Duet is otherwise a datasheet design. Much of the circuit is very close to the application notes for each device. Where a choice was possible they have gone with the better performing (for instance whether to AC couple the preamp to the DAC or use a reference voltage to float the input.)

There are limitations to it - The ubiquity of LM388 op-amps - these are OK, but not stellar, and the headphone amp is a little lacking compared to some (pricier) options. Some coupling caps are pedestrian, but space limitations take their toll. But for the money it is remarkable. If the Duet were made 10 years ago it would have taken up a full width rack case. There is a huge amount of stuff in there. SMD really lets them pack it in. And lets them achieve a better result.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by svart

I still don't agree with a lot of what jslevin had to say. He's biased towards Apple and I am biased away from them and nothing will change that.

It's just lame to say that someone is biased just because he doesn't agree with you. You have no evidence that I'm biased towards Apple, and the fact that you would really like to believe that doesn't make it so.

My bias is for pragmatism, and toward not aggravating myself. I know how to separate practical questions from the irrelevant side-issues, even if I find the side-issues irritating.

JSL

[foldback]

I think the Duet is a great little box and it is easily worth the $440 to $499 price if you want a compact and relatively low cost box of I.O. for a Mac.

I've had mine since the beginning of the year and I've made a lot of recordings with it.

IMHO, one of the biggest problems with DAW recording is latency. There are a ton of users out there recording who are unaware of the small timing differences their systems are injecting into their recorded tracks. This leads to sloppy sounding loose recordings.

I can't stand latency, it ruins good music. Latency should be illegal. It should not be some special mode you have to go into. Latency must be stomped out!

I grew up on tape decks that passed their input to the output when you were in the record mode (zero latency). Why is this so hard? Is it the need to apply reverb and effects during recording? Why don't more computer recording interfaces offer this simple monitoring mode, at least as an option, without running some other big mixing board piece of monitoring software.

The Duet uses a piece of software (Maestro) to effectively pass the input to the output and reduce latency to virtually non-existent. The Maestro interface consists of two relatively large windows. I wish these windows were smaller. I wish the relationship between Logic and Duet was spelled out better, but, it is possible to make very FAT good sounding recordings using the onboard Duet mic preamps, line inputs and instrument inputs and latency is NOT an issue so I've been very satisfied.

In my main control room I run the output of Duet into the 2-track return on a Neve 8816 and monitor it over Meyer HD-1 monitors. Some things I have to compare to are a hardware L-2, Apogee AD/DA16X, and Hedd.

In the field I have played and recorded on Duet/Logic Pro using a stock $1099 MacBook (not pro model). I also tried Duet/Logic on a late model MacMini and that worked fine. Track counts are limited on these lower cost Macs due to the slow 2.5" hard disks Apple puts in them and lack of DRAM (only 1GB in mine) but I have been able to record and overdub 7 or 8 tracks without an external disk drive. Logic will let you know very quickly when you run out of system resources. In these personal field applications I don't use virtual instruments or loops, I'm just trying to make some high quality recordings of song ideas when inspiration hits.

There are things that I wish were different on the Apogee Duet but the quality of the sound you can produce with it is up there with the best. The size and features means that you can take it with you anywhere in the world easily. The Maestro software means latency won't be an issue. The Duet works very well with Logic and Garageband so now, even some of the cheapest recording packages on the planet are 24-bit with great converters and mic preamps.

For well under 2-grand anyone can have a complete 24-bit recording system (including computer and software) that dramatically surpasses the most premium of systems available just a few short years ago. This is a great time to be a recordist.

Best of luck to all.

Mark