Apogee Duet, professional two-channel firewire audio interface for the Mac

[Football]

Originally Posted by kincept

they seem a bit thin to me. my motu had more character and punch.

I would agree.

The preamps are nothing to write home about IMO but that's kind of what I expect for a $400 unit like this.

[desotoslo]

Max, don't know if you still monitor this thread, but I'd like to ask if you have any knowledge about possible improvements to Duet's aggregation abilities?

Thanks.

[kincept]

Originally Posted by jslevin

My guess is that your monitoring is scooped out, so you want a muddy preamp in order to make you feel like you're getting a full sound. Not a good situation to be in.

I wouldn't expect the Grace to sound profoundly different in character from the Duet's stock preamps.

JSL

what do you mean my monitoring is scooped out? Im really basing my recordings on how my vocals sound on a dry take vs other preamps. I dont think my monitors have anything to do with it the only variable is my preamp slash interface.

im using mackie MR5s to monitor.

[fuzzjunkie]

"The two outputs can't be run at different levels. Lots of people have been moaning about just this issue." "Wow. That does kind of blow. I mean, it's workable, I guess, and I guess it's part of the impressive price-point they hit, but ... it can't feel right to have it that way.""

is this even a real issue? I can see that having to deal with kernel panics and glitches would piss me off ( I have none of those issues on my system, but the recent update is supposed to fix that ), but don't powered monitors have a volume knob?

in my set up that isn't even a concern because I use a custom built power amp that powers two sets of monitors with a nice A/B switch to select either set...and a freakin' huge volume knob!

i know this board can be about pissing matches as much as real info; but really, you're not even limited to powered monitors if you don't want to be! set the volume for a decent listening level off the headphones and if the monitors aren't loud enough, reach over and crank it up!

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by kincept

what do you mean my monitoring is scooped out? Im really basing my recordings on how my vocals sound on a dry take vs other preamps. I dont think my monitors have anything to do with it the only variable is my preamp slash interface.

Of course your monitoring (not just your monitors, the whole situation including acoustics) has everything to do with how you perceive different preamps. You're speaking fondly of a fairly mushy preamp that doesn't have much definition, then when you hear a preamp with more clarity and superior tonal balance, you say it sounds "thin."

What that says to me is that you're hearing both preamps through scooped monitoring, thus the muddier one sounds less muddy and the tonally flat one sounds thin. For all I know, you're not even monitoring in phase.

General note to everyone here ... for all the opinions that get offered up around here, not even this in particular, you never really know how good the monitoring is that's behind them.

Originally Posted by Football

The preamps are nothing to write home about IMO but that's kind of what I expect for a $400 unit like this.

What does that even mean? There aren't many two-channel units that cost as much as $495 retail, and those that do have a lot more features, not necessarily better quality at all.

JSL

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by kincept

they seem a bit thin to me. my motu had more character and punch.

They definitely don't sound thin, they don't however have masses of character, but they do have a pretty forward sound. I've compared them to The Brick (which is a valve tube pre) and although The Brick is definitely has more character I find the Duet's pre easier to mix on vocals (i.e. I need less processing to get the sound to sit well) although on a more aggressive vocal they can be a little too forward to my ears.

[Vocalvoodoo]

I have to agree. The Duet pres don't sound thin at all.

[hobey123]

Hey guys,

I am new to the whole recording thing and was wanting to record some stuff from my guitar amp to the computer/garage band/pro tools. I was just wondering how this unit compares to others out there and also how you actually plug from the amp into this unit. Would i just jack straight out of the 8ohm output of the amp into the input of the Duet?

Any help would be appreciated, sorry if this a really basic question, but i'd hate to blow something up...

Thanks again

[Duardo]

Do not plug the 8 ohm output of the amp into the Duet, or you will blow something (namely, the Duet) up...

How you'd connect it to your amp depends on the amp. Most would suggest that you connect it by plugging a microphone in to the Duet and then put the microphone in front of the amp...but depending on the amp you have there may be other ways to do it that will work.

How it compares to others is subjective, but I think it's the best in its price range (and, not coincidentally, considering the features it's also among the most expensive).

[Dave12345]

I'm going to plug the Duet directly into my powered monitors - Does the Duet software ever mess up and forget what volume it was set at or send out full scale glitches even though the sound level is set really low + is the volume level always remembered even when the Mac is rebooted or restarted after a crash - can you get away without a monitor controller ? or is there always the worry of a full scale blast at the back of your mind !


Cheers

[Vocalvoodoo]

Originally Posted by Dave12345

I'm going to plug the Duet directly into my powered monitors - Does the Duet software ever mess up and forget what volume it was set at or send out full scale glitches even though the sound level is set really low + is the volume level always remembered even when the Mac is rebooted or restarted after a crash - can you get away without a monitor controller ? or is there always the worry of a full scale blast at the back of your mind !


Cheers

I've used the Duet since it came out until bout a month ago without a monitor controller and everything was fine. Not one time did the Duet/Maestro software forget its volume position and blast me out. You should be good to go.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by Dave12345

I'm going to plug the Duet directly into my powered monitors - Does the Duet software ever mess up and forget what volume it was set at or send out full scale glitches even though the sound level is set really low + is the volume level always remembered even when the Mac is rebooted or restarted after a crash - can you get away without a monitor controller ? or is there always the worry of a full scale blast at the back of your mind !


Cheers

good points to be concerned about! i for one don't know the answer but would love to know the true answer. i use a monitor controller between my interfaces and speakers as it is

[Dave12345]

cheers guys - my maudio projectmix has always been ok - apart from once when i pressed the reset mixer button without thinking! The apogee firemix software that comes with the xfirewire cards seems to be pretty unreliable + there doesn't seem to be a way to save your settings so you have to remember to turn the master fader down every time you boot your system - I don't always remember ! + firemix only controls the asio output level - so any other audio players like windows media player or quicktime still play at full level out of your DA. Not ideal !

[hobey123]

Hi guys!!

I just found out that I have a slave output from my amplifier (Mesa Boogie Roadster) which has an adjustable level knob and it says that this is usually used for using the Roadster as a preamp, which can be connected to power-amps for more power. Does this sound like the right type of connection to hook into the Duet??

Any help would be much appreciated!!

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

good points to be concerned about! i for one don't know the answer but would love to know the true answer. i use a monitor controller between my interfaces and speakers as it is

Also now used the Duet for 3 months with no issues like that and it's has been rock solid period.

[svart]

anyone know if there are plans to offer even minimal support for Windows? All I want are ASIO streams to input into my tracking app of choice.

I am not going to go through the hassle of buying a mac and software just to use a duet. It's just poor marketing to leave a significant group of potential customers out in the cold just because you want the small contingent of mac users to continue to feel special and/or literally force non-apple users to dish out overly large amounts of money just to use a product that fills a specific niche.

That being said, Duet would be perfect for some of the things I regularly do, stereo live recording namely. I just don't like the marketing strategy and unfortunately it's going to force my hand into not purchasing any Apogee products on principle alone. Once I see windows support, I'll be ordering one immediately.

[dkatz42]

Originally Posted by svart

It's just poor marketing to leave a significant group of potential customers out in the cold just because you want the small contingent of mac users to continue to feel special and/or literally force non-apple users to dish out overly large amounts of money just to use a product that fills a specific niche.

Taking this a little personally, aren't we? It seems *highly* unlikely that Apogee has made the choice they have for the reasons you state. They've made a business decision that is the right one for them, and I'd be unsurprised if it involved a contractual obligation with Apple in return for money, marketing, better support, or whatever.

The idea that they're Mac-only in order to flip the bird at Windows users is just absurd.

Metric Halo gear is also Mac-only. Although this isn't a large sample space, it does imply that there are legitimate business reasons for doing so. It may well be that the additional hassle and expense of writing drivers and plugs and apps for a second O/S simply isn't offset by the revenues. Or maybe the principals in both companies simply hate Windows.

[svart]

I take it personally because I don't like the marketing strategy. I've read a number of pieces that do hint at a close collaboration between apogee and mac for the duet. It seems like a ploy to get folks to move towards apple by enticing them with gadgets that fit a real need, but only if you use certain hardware. Like I said before though, the Duet would be perfect for what I need: small, light, bus powered, no BS I/O, etc. No one else has anything like it for the price, they are dead on with this marketing point.

I don't really care for windows and all their anti-trust crap either. They tried to muscle everyone else out just like Apogee seems to be doing with Apple now. It's just that I have all my programs/settings/hardware based on windows and I don't have the cash to obtain a mac laptop let alone another expensive software suite, which is exactly what I feel they intend for me to do. I don't like practically being told that I am not using the *correct* hardware/software. I use what I feel works best for me as should any Mac user should feel if it works for them.

They have other products that use similar technology and they have fully developed mac AND windows drivers. Since these are ports to intel architecture already, it wouldn't be much to go the rest of the way to port some windows drivers as well. I work in electronics and work with software/firmware developers daily so I know that once the framework is complete, it's not *that* hard to port to a different OS. It certainly doesn't take a room full of engineers months to port to a different OS, I see single engineers do it in very little time at all.

Before anyone gives me the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" stuff, I'll tell you that is exactly what is going to happen. I'm just peeved that I see something very perfect for what I need and I have to settle for something less.

[Francis Vaughan]

One issue with both the Duet and Ensemble is that Apogee didn't write any drivers. They use the OS-X core audio firewire drivers. Apple provide this as a known API that a device can be designed to. So to port the Duet to Windows would involve significant new work that does not already exist.

Actually it may involve more than just writing drivers - since those drivers would implicitly need to implement the OS-X core audio drivers - which contain Apple IP - no doubt some of it protected. So Apogee would need to redesign the Duet's internal software as well, to implement some other IO API.

The Duet has been a real success. If the market exists for a Windows version one might imagine that some other vendors will be readying their own designs of a clone.

[svart]

I had an insider tell me a little about the preamps at least. TI PGA2500 digitally controllable ICs. 12$ each in 1K quantity. No doubt driven by a small FPGA or DSP/micro which likely controls the AD/DA and the firewire I/O. Likely paired to a codec of some sorts as well. I would bet it's an AKM codec due to their low quantity pricing.

As for the core drivers, that makes sense in a way. Apogee wouldn't even really have to do much at all. I suppose that cheapens things up considerably for them and allows them to sell it so cheap. However that would be POOR judgement on Apogee's part to paint themselves into a corner by using Apple IP embedded in the Duet firmware. I would think that they would use some standard datastream that Apple's drivers can utilize without going totally proprietary, but that's just me.

I don't think there would be much involved in changing things on the Duet side. If it's an FPGA then they have a bootloader on a prom/flash. They surely designed a dual boot image arrangement as well, that is just good design practice. That way they could update the firmware on the fly and the next boot sequence would load the new firmware and back it up in the secondary image. Again, just good design practice and very easy to update this way, you could likely do it from the computer too.

As for data, I don't know if Apple uses some proprietary firewire bitstream but I assume that it wouldn't be hard to change the format and/or write a driver that converts into another format once the data is native to the PC. It might hurt latency slightly but it would be fairly easy I would think.

I could have it all wrong and Apogee could have never intended to port this to any other OS and we windows and Linux users would be screwed. Lets hope I'm wrong.

[Francis Vaughan]

Pre-amps are indeed PGA2500. Converter is a Crystal part, not AKM, the rest is STI LM388 opamps (not exactly expensive). The reason it works so well isn't really the parts (although this helps) but the layout and the 6 layer PCB. That and some care with PS design and other things. Experience perhaps more than anything.

Core micro-controller is in the Oxford Firewire controller - which includes an Arm core. One chip wonder runs the whole shebang. Chip has serial control buses that directly run the PGA2500s. Also provides clock to the ADC/DAC chip. Same chip in the Ensemble I suspect - it has enough IO pins to run it. Chip even has direct input pins for the controller knob.

Firewire is more complex than a datastream. Firewire presents a virtual address space with control registers directly addressable. So rather than a protocol that involves packets going back and forth you have a memory mapped paradigm for control. (Obviously packets under this, but you don't code at this level.) So again, it isn't so easy to do a simple port - especially if the API is proprietary. Not that it is impossible, but it is a business decision. Other vendors do provide dual use systems and use Apple's API on OS-X.

[bleep]

just get the tc electronics konnekt, it's just as good if not better
than the Duet. works 100% stable on my macbook and pc.
and sounds fantastic... some say better than duet..
check out the shootout someone did on this board..
it's true, amazing.

[svart]

Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan

Pre-amps are indeed PGA2500. Converter is a Crystal part, not AKM, the rest is STI LM388 opamps (not exactly expensive). The reason it works so well isn't really the parts (although this helps) but the layout and the 6 layer PCB. That and some care with PS design and other things. Experience perhaps more than anything.

Core micro-controller is in the Oxford Firewire controller - which includes an Arm core. One chip wonder runs the whole shebang. Chip has serial control buses that directly run the PGA2500s. Also provides clock to the ADC/DAC chip. Same chip in the Ensemble I suspect - it has enough IO pins to run it. Chip even has direct input pins for the controller knob.

Firewire is more complex than a datastream. Firewire presents a virtual address space with control registers directly addressable. So rather than a protocol that involves packets going back and forth you have a memory mapped paradigm for control. (Obviously packets under this, but you don't code at this level.) So again, it isn't so easy to do a simple port - especially if the API is proprietary. Not that it is impossible, but it is a business decision. Other vendors do provide dual use systems and use Apple's API on OS-X.

So you're saying that you work for Apogee?




Firewire controller with ARM core eh? I might have to tell the guys at work about that one...

It sounds like a pretty tidy setup, much more tidy that I expected for the price. Indeed the devil is in the details. I routinely deal with 8-12 layer boards at work..

Firewire is more complex than a datastream

True, but at some level you always have a datastream that can be stripped/parsed out. It might not be trivial or elegant but it has been done..


I'll check out the Konnekt, thanks!

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by svart

I take it personally because I don't like the marketing strategy. I've read a number of pieces that do hint at a close collaboration between apogee and mac for the duet.

Hint? There's no hint, Apogee is working closely with Apple. Period.

This isn't a marketing strategy, it's a business decision, cost and benefit, best use of cash, best opportunity for profit, that sort of thing.

I've said it a million times ... Windows users in general are not people who are in the habit of paying a premium for (what they perceive to be) a superior product. Apogee makes only premium products, Metric-Halo is basically the Cadillac of interfaces.

Windows users would not be willing to pay for these products in significant numbers, and it would cost a small fortune to develop the drivers and support the zillion-plus configurations. It's simply not a winning proposition for these companies -- there is not a significant chance that they would make a significant profit, therefore they're going to devote their resources elsewhere, toward lower-hanging fruit if you will.

Don't take it personally, it's just a cost/benefit analysis on the return on investment. Windows is a mass-market brand, like K-Mart, not a premium brand like Apple. There is simply more affinity with other premium brands for Apple.

JSL

[Francis Vaughan]

Originally Posted by svart

So you're saying that you work for Apogee?

No, but just a sad geek that likes to know how what he has bought works.

Firewire controller with ARM core eh? I might have to tell the guys at work about that one...

Oxford Semiconductor OXFW971 Very neat.

True, but at some level you always have a datastream that can be stripped/parsed out. It might not be trivial or elegant but it has been done..

Actually now I have quick look at the Oxford datasheet they claim that it supports Windows..... Looks much more like an Apple/Apogee agreement now. Just the styling alone suggests Apogee (and Apple's) intent.

[svart]

Actually now I have quick look at the Oxford datasheet they claim that it supports Windows

Of course it HAS to, firewire is a standard across all platforms and the data stream has a set structure. How the data is encoded within that structure can change and that is where the drivers interface and do what they do. This is what I was trying to get across last night. IF apogee/mac/windows, whomever, calls it Firewire, it has to conform to the standard.

Don't take it personally, it's just a cost/benefit analysis on the return on investment. Windows is a mass-market brand, like K-Mart, not a premium brand like Apple. There is simply more affinity with other premium brands for Apple.

Premium? A Dell or an HP would also be premium if you use the word in that context. They sell completed boxes that are intended to have minimal user tweaking, same as a mac sans smug attitude.

I've said it a million times ... Windows users in general are not people who are in the habit of paying a premium for (what they perceive to be) a superior product. Apogee makes only premium products, Metric-Halo is basically the Cadillac of interfaces.

Windows users would not be willing to pay for these products in significant numbers, and it would cost a small fortune to develop the drivers and support the zillion-plus configurations. It's simply not a winning proposition for these companies -- there is not a significant chance that they would make a significant profit, therefore they're going to devote their resources elsewhere, toward lower-hanging fruit if you will.

Just because someone uses windows makes them 'cheap'? I think that anyone given the choice between programs will always weigh price vs. performance. Apple simply does not give you that, it's their way or the highway as the saying goes. There is no choice, you are stuck paying the the price they set and somehow urge you to feel 'superior' or you simply don't play. Their marketing plan was always flawed in my opinion. I've used my share of macs and I simply got tired of the things. I chose PCs because I could do what I wanted without the egotistical hassle. I better go get rid of all my SSL gear, my Neve gear, My API gear, my lexicons, my Gefells, etc and all of the other stuff that might give people the impression that I have spent lots of money on my studio. I better run out and get a digi001 or Duet and Mac laptop and get PRO right away.

As I stated before, drivers for a standard protocol like firewire are generally clearly defined and would be fairly easy to write if you are simply translating the Apple/mac bitstream to something like ASIO. Someone who makes a box like this with my estimated cost that is less than half of the selling price should be able to quickly move to support "lesser" users like us windows users.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by svart

Premium? A Dell or an HP would also be premium if you use the word in that context. They sell completed boxes that are intended to have minimal user tweaking, same as a mac sans smug attitude.

No. Dell or HP are premium brands only among generic Windows boxes; they are not viewed as premium brands in the general marketplace. They sell generic boxes and compete almost entirely on price, based on high-volume manufacturing efficiencies. That is not what a premium brand does.

Just because someone uses windows makes them 'cheap'?

No, I never said that. Stop being a baby and taking this personally. This is not about you.

What I said was a characterization of the overall market of Windows DAW users. It does not apply to every individual user — of course not. It's a generalization, and that means it's imperfect and limited. But companies choosing whether to develop for a certain market have to consider the reality of the whole market, not the deservingness of a handful of potential customers like you.

Apple simply does not give you that, it's their way or the highway as the saying goes. There is no choice, you are stuck paying the the price they set and somehow urge you to feel 'superior' or you simply don't play.

Right. That's what a premium brand does. I never said everyone should like it.

Their marketing plan was always flawed in my opinion.

You sure have a lot of opinions about companies' marketing plans. What exactly is your marketing background? Have you ever run a company or developed or marketed a new product?

I chose PCs because I could do what I wanted without the egotistical hassle.

Frankly, it seems like your decisions have been driven by image/branding issues and not by substantive, practical considerations.

I better go get rid of all my SSL gear, my Neve gear, My API gear, my lexicons, my Gefells, etc and all of the other stuff that might give people the impression that I have spent lots of money on my studio. I better run out and get a digi001 or Duet and Mac laptop and get PRO right away.

Heh — that's funny. Apple is a premium brand, but more accurately, it's a premium consumer brand, and while Apogee primarily makes professional products, the Duet pretty clearly is a consumer product (albeit with pretty professional quality). It clearly is designed for and marketed to consumer applications — hence the affinity with Apple, a premium consumer brand. The brands you name here are obviously some of the top brands in the industry — they're professional products. Whole different category. There are of course many professional products that do support Windows, but a high-end consumer audio product is not a good fit for the Windows customer base — just like you don't see a lot of Zune accessories advertised.

As I stated before, drivers for a standard protocol like firewire are generally clearly defined and would be fairly easy to write if you are simply translating the Apple/mac bitstream to something like ASIO. Someone who makes a box like this with my estimated cost that is less than half of the selling price should be able to quickly move to support "lesser" users like us windows users.

Well, that's easier for you to say — i.e., pull out of your ass — than for someone else to do, devoting their own time and money resources towards it. Most ASIO drivers are more or less a disaster, so I assume that it isn't all that easy to do. And again, it's a question of whether the potential profit — net of all the development and support costs — really justifies diverting the resources away from something else.

JSL

[svart]

No. Dell or HP are premium brands only among generic Windows boxes; they are not viewed as premium brands in the general marketplace. They sell generic boxes and compete almost entirely on price, based on high-volume manufacturing efficiencies. That is not what a premium brand does.

My point that you completely missed is that premium is relative to the context of the arguement. Apple is premium in their own minds and the minds of folks that like them. Now that they are Intel based they are no more than a PC with a different OS and "approved" driver sets. Dell and HP are premium brands, not generic boxes, same as Mac. I don't care for any of them but I can get a true generic PC box from any corner computer store for MUCH less thus making those brands premium.

No, I never said that. Stop being a baby and taking this personally. This is not about you.

What I said was a characterization of the overall market of Windows DAW users. It does not apply to every individual user — of course not