Apogee Duet, professional two-channel firewire audio interface for the Mac

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by d2ba

Im getting emails from the Logic Users group saying
"
Apogee that they have disabled the ability to do this with two or more Duets.
You can only do this with one duet and one other device which is not a duet"


Bet you no one in the world has even tried with two duets

Confirmation here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music...ml#post1559177

[kincept]

Does anyone hear have these problems, :
When I am monitoring through software the mic sound through my headphones
sounds tiny, But records fine, I shut off software monitoring and it sounds fine.
Its just hearing it through my headphones that the problem is.

Also one of my LED lights does not light up all the way does that matter?

[TCW]

Quick Duet question...

Can you record though one 1/4" input and one XLR input at the same time, or is it "either/or"? For example, a keyboard (mono) and a mic (XLR)

Thanks!

[pedrodash]

yes, you can;

[Vocalvoodoo]

Originally Posted by TCW

Quick Duet question...

Can you record though one 1/4" input and one XLR input at the same time, or is it "either/or"? For example, a keyboard (mono) and a mic (XLR)

Thanks!

You can, but not both on the same channel at the same time. For example, you'd have to you use the 1/4" on channel one and the XLR on channel 2 to record both at the same time.

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by kincept

Does anyone hear have these problems, :
When I am monitoring through software the mic sound through my headphones
sounds tiny, But records fine, I shut off software monitoring and it sounds fine.
Its just hearing it through my headphones that the problem is.

This sounds like you are monitoring via software and direct (Maestro) at the same time...you need to kil one or the other.

Originally Posted by kincept

Also one of my LED lights does not light up all the way does that matter?

If this is on incoming and outdoing signals then does sound like a hardware issue...what about the signal in Maestro?

[kincept]

its on the output, I am not software monitoring, and maestro monitoring. I have maestro software set to none and logic set to software monitoring and it gives that sound on the headphones.

the LED light the left side 4th one never lights up fully.

[kincept]

O the maestro signal is fine.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan

I assume you mean Max. However I doubt he said that. The input levels in the Duet are analogue gain controls, but the output level is digital. It occurs inside the ADC/DAC chip.

I don't know how that can be the case. The monitor and headphone outputs always share the same signal, because there's only one DAC pair, yet they can be running at different levels. How is that possible, unless both stereo attenuators are post-DAC, which would make them analog controls?

I believe the Duet provides essentially an analog attenuator for monitor control.

JSL

[Francis Vaughan]

Originally Posted by jslevin

I don't know how that can be the case. The monitor and headphone outputs always share the same signal, because there's only one DAC pair, yet they can be running at different levels. How is that possible, unless both stereo attenuators are post-DAC, which would make them analog controls?

I believe the Duet provides essentially an analog attenuator for monitor control.

JSL

The two outputs can't be run at different levels. Lots of people have been moaning about just this issue. Sure the absolute levels are different, but the difference is fixed, simply due to the different gain of the output driver and headphone driver amps.

To quote from the Apogee Duet FAQ: Apogee Electronics: Products: Duet

Q: Can I set the headphone and line outputs to different levels?
A: The headphone and line outputs are always controlled simultaneously. To set the balance between headphones and speakers connected to the line outputs, set the speaker’s amplifier accordingly. It is possible to mute the headphones and line outputs independently.

There is nothing between the DAC and the output. It goes CS 4272 (DAC), LM833 (I/V converter) LM833 (output op-amp) . Both outputs add a few of bipolar transistors on the end of the op-amps to give them additional drive, and a mute, but that is it. The CS 4272 internally provides a digital domain 20 bit attenuator before the DAC for output volume control. That is all there is.

Input level control is done inside the PGA2500 mic amp chips, and occurs before the ADC. (In addition there are 10dB relay switched pads that extends the input gain range.)

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan

I assume you mean Max. However I doubt he said that. The input levels in the Duet are analogue gain controls, but the output level is digital. It occurs inside the ADC/DAC chip.

This does however mirror some of other other discussions raging about GS at the moment. So long as the noise floor of the whole system is greater than the LSB of the DAC (something that is hard to avoid with a 24 bit device - even it if it only good for 21 bits) then you still don't lose any resolution, because the resolution is noise limited and not bit depth limited.

I PM'd Max to clear this up..as I am sure what I read, but just cannot find the post right now.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan

The two outputs can't be run at different levels. Lots of people have been moaning about just this issue.

Wow. That does kind of blow. I mean, it's workable, I guess, and I guess it's part of the impressive price-point they hit, but ... it can't feel right to have it that way.

JSL

[kincept]

best way to run cables to my monitors? I have MR5 monitors, and I noticed some fuzz when no sound was playing, so I tried the unbalanced TS to RCA. I noticed a loss of sound loudness and hard hittin base vs the TS to TS running through the balanced input.

MR5 only has rca unbalanced in, but it sounded better with TS to TS in the balanced in?
what is best, GC said just buy balanced cables it makes no difference? HUH?

clear this up.

So less power with the RCA, lower output, vs LOUDER a bit more hum with unbalanced TS to TS balanced input!

I would turn it to 3 notches with the TS TO TS, and it was lound RCA I can go half way up and the base isn't as prominant.

[Francis Vaughan]

Originally Posted by jslevin

Wow. That does kind of blow. I mean, it's workable, I guess, and I guess it's part of the impressive price-point they hit, but ... it can't feel right to have it that way.

To do this they would have had to add two two channel level controllers - one for the line level one for the headphone outputs - since the internal to DAC control happens before the DAC it can only affect both together. So that would have been two additional packages with attendant support components, with the additional power draw and space. Could have been done, there is probably enough space if they start to use the underside of the PCB a bit more. But eventually any design has to call "enough". There is more than enough remaining control capability in the controller chip however.

[TCW]

Has anyone been limited by the in/out situation on the Duet? One thing that's holding me back is the inability to have a little verb on the vocals while tracking (Digital Performer gives latency when tracking with effects). Since theres no routing options with the duet other than the stereo outs, I could see that being a problem. Just 2 in and 2 out...and the 2 outs gets used up by the playback (stereo)

I've been trying to decide between a Duet and a Mackie 400f. I could live w/out the verb while tracking if the sound is superior (preamps and converters)

Any opinions on this?

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan

But eventually any design has to call "enough". There is more than enough remaining control capability in the controller chip however.

Well, sure, if you're assuming they're adding these things in after the entire design is already done. Seems to me this should have been part of the spec from the beginning, but what do I know?

JSL

[Francis Vaughan]

Originally Posted by jslevin

Well, sure, if you're assuming they're adding these things in after the entire design is already done. Seems to me this should have been part of the spec from the beginning, but what do I know?

There is always a tension between the requirements and the design. A very important idea in this phase is the notion of a design "closing". That is where the tension between the competing requirements yields a design that is feasible within those constraints.

The Duet was clearly specified with a few non-negotiable constraints. Things like bus-powered, price point, Apple driver compatibility, audio quality. It is also clear that there was a desire to use the design of the Ensemble as a basis. In most ways the Duet is a 2 channel Ensemble. This would yield a clear head start in the design of the device, including software. So adding a feature or design element missing on the Ensemble to the Duet would have been frowned upon.

It isn't clear that adding a pair of level controls after the DAC would have had the same audio quality as using the DAC's internal one, and it would have added a set of new design elements - requiring new software - and a design that was no longer a cut down Ensemble. The other way of providing level controls on the outputs would be to add a second DAC. But the obvious chip to use is the same one that they already do, so you find yourself only a few components short of making not a Duet, but a Quartet. And in either case probably with a power budget that was getting quite difficult.

If you follow the internal design of the Duet you find that the device almost designs itself. Everything flows very neatly. Almost every feature of every component is used and it all meshed together like a perfect jigsaw.

The obvious step up is not a Duet Plus, but a Quartet. But that would take a lot of thinking about. It could no longer be bus powered, well it could, but it would kill battery life, and thus cease to sit in the Duet's slot as a viable portable device. It would probably need to sell for about $800 US, and there may simply not be market enough for it there. People might prefer to pay the difference to go to an Ensemble. Or go for competitor products. So it could be a bit of an orphan. Difficult to know. There is no doubt the Duet has hit a sweet spot in the market.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan

If you follow the internal design of the Duet you find that the device almost designs itself. Everything flows very neatly. Almost every feature of every component is used and it all meshed together like a perfect jigsaw.

The software cost of adding the two controls would be trivial, but the more significant cost might be that if you're going to have isolated attenuators from the DAC output, then neither one of them can be integrated within the DAC.

An awful lot of interface product feature sets are based on the OEM chips that are available, as opposed to companies having a unique point of view on what customers will want and like. That's why so many of the interface feature sets are almost identical.

JSL

[TCW]

Duet users,

What settings are the best for the Duet? I have Digital Performer/Mac G4 dual 1GHz and was wondering what buffer size and proiority level I should assign.

Thanks,
Tom

[halfguard]

anyone know if the duet will work with fw 800??

[halfguard]

just spoke with apogee, they said fw 400 to 800 will work....

[kincept]

what do you think a good external pre would be to add to the DUET?

[vangogh57]

I tried plugging my Duet into a firewire hub but the Maestro software doesn't activate it remains gray. Is anyone else having success using a firewire hub? I'm on a 24" iMac.
Vangogh57

[desotoslo]

Anyone ever try (successfully) to aggregate the Duet with something like an Ultralite?

Would it be possible to do that and still get the conversion and preamps from the Duet and then run a DAV BG1 (or similar external preamp) into the ultralite, so ideally I'd have 2 excellent channels (duet) and 2 so-so channels (DAV thru UL)?

Am I making stuff up? ;)

Let's hear about your aggregation experiences, please!!

[Duardo]

what do you think a good external pre would be to add to the DUET?

Depends on the sound you're looking for...its preamps are actually quite good, so if you felt compelled to add an external preamp of some sort I'd add something with some color. What type of color would, again, depend on what kind of sound you were looking for.

[Nimrod7]

Originally Posted by Duardo

Depends on the sound you're looking for...its preamps are actually quite good, so if you felt compelled to add an external preamp of some sort I'd add something with some color. What type of color would, again, depend on what kind of sound you were looking for.

Here you can grab the latest updates for Duet and Ensemble:

Index of /downloads/drivers

I don't know if it's legal to post this link (I don't care), if its officially released (there is nothing on the site), also I don't know if it's a beta, or if they will completely destroy your system. I didn't install myself .... YET.

Yesterday, I had a session with a singer, full of audio glitches and kernel panics. I feel very ashamed not knowing what's going on. Today I will install this update myself. xIt can't be any worse.


regards,
Bill.

[mattrixx]

Don't suppose you know how to get the zipped file to open and then mount the disk image... The file appears broken, even after downloading from my user account at Apogee Digital.

[kincept]

Originally Posted by kincept

what do you think a good external pre would be to add to the DUET?

anyone?

do you think the grace m101 is to similar in sound to the duet?

[kincept]

Originally Posted by Duardo

Depends on the sound you're looking for...its preamps are actually quite good, so if you felt compelled to add an external preamp of some sort I'd add something with some color. What type of color would, again, depend on what kind of sound you were looking for.

they seem a bit thin to me. my motu had more character and punch.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by kincept

they seem a bit thin to me. my motu had more character and punch.

My guess is that your monitoring is scooped out, so you want a muddy preamp in order to make you feel like you're getting a full sound. Not a good situation to be in.

I wouldn't expect the Grace to sound profoundly different in character from the Duet's stock preamps.

JSL