Apogee Duet, professional two-channel firewire audio interface for the Mac

[odarellmc]

originally posted by DISCERN;

IMO, the Duet sinks the 400F faster than the titanic when it comes to sonic quality. Thats the big thing... the only thing that matters really.

have you heard them side by side, i'm pretty sure if you did you couldn't tell the difference, the clock on the 400F is great plus i have the flexibility, of integrating my external compressor into the chain on the inserts. the mackie is just a better unit IMO. just cause it has apogee's name, doesn't mean its the best, especially at this price range.

[DISCERN]

Originally Posted by odarellmc

originally posted by DISCERN;



have you heard them side by side, i'm pretty sure if you did you couldn't tell the difference, the clock on the 400F is great plus i have the flexibility, of integrating my external compressor into the chain on the inserts. the mackie is just a better unit IMO. just cause it has apogee's name, doesn't mean its the best, especially at this price range.

Of course I listened to both, I spent considerable time with each. Like I mentioned already, the 400F was a boat anchor in comparison.

[crufty]

Monitors / phones make a difference here too. Hook up crappy monitors into your duet you may not hear the difference because the monitors themselves color the sound.

I have had zero issues with my duet. The clarity is unreal. It doesn't add ANYTHING. What I put in is what GOES in. This is what matters to me. So if I have a crappy buzz ridden signal, in it goes. If I have a crappy cable on an unbalanced line with horrible gain, in it goes.

Likewise, if the signal chain is setup right then it's ALL BUTTAH.

oh, except for the digital quality of ITB

[d2ba]

Hi Im wondering if this will work
Connecting SL-1200 to Duet Mic Preamps with no turnable preamp?
I have RCA-XLR adapters and dont want to use a turnable preamp


thanks David

[inthere]

Originally Posted by DISCERN

Of course I listened to both, I spent considerable time with each. Like I mentioned already, the 400F was a boat anchor in comparison.

I've tested loads of sound cards in that price range, and I haven't heard anything yet that doesn't sound like a boat anchor in comparison to the Duet. If anyone can find something with better quality, please tell me.

[Francis Vaughan]

Originally Posted by d2ba

Hi Im wondering if this will work
Connecting SL-1200 to Duet Mic Preamps with no turnable preamp?
I have RCA-XLR adapters and dont want to use a turnable preamp

You will need 2 things. Get the load impedance right for the cartridge you are using. This is as simple as adding a parallel resistor across each input. Your cartridge should list its desired impedance. Without this the tonal balance will likely be off. A typical moving magnet cartridge needs 47 kOhms, if you use a moving coil it can vary a lot. The Duet has enough gain for almost any cartridge.

You will need to apply reverse RIAA compensation to the recorded input signal. There are tools that can do this in the digital domain. I would expect there are plug ins that can do it too. But without, the result will be unusable.

You will probably want to go in through the unbalanced inputs into the Duet and set the input to Instrument. Cartridges vary in their wiring and grounding, but the typical turntable output is unbalanced.

[kincept]

just wondering if you guys with problems have newer intel macs? or g4, 5 s?

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by d2ba

Hi Im wondering if this will work
Connecting SL-1200 to Duet Mic Preamps with no turnable preamp?
I have RCA-XLR adapters and dont want to use a turnable preamp

Just my opinion, but I think this is a bad idea. I've done this five different ways, and I've never been all that happy with applying the RIAA curve after the AD conversion. It's a pretty extreme curve when you get right down to it, and most EQ plug-ins are not well set up to specify it.

I put a fair amount of time to get it right using Metric-Halo ChannelStrip, with Metric-Halo's help, but while we did get it right, it still seemed like a better idea to get the EQ correction done before hitting the converters. Eventually I just got a turntable with a built in phono preamp, so now I go turntable -> internal preamp -> line balancer -> line-level converter inputs.

I don't know what your RCA-XLR adapters are, but if they don't handle line balancing then they're not everything you really need. Maybe you don't want to use a phono preamp because they're generally RCA-to-RCA, so you'd still have to run the signal into a line balancer and/or cable adapter after that?

Ultimately, this is what you really need if you want to use a turntable with RCA outputs and no built-in preamp. This does your format conversion, line balancing and RIAA EQ all in one box, very high quality, and you get XLR mic-level outputs ready to go straight into the Duet. (You also get the standard line-level unbalanced RCA outputs if that's what you want to use.)

Few phono preamps will give you balanced mic-level output, which is what makes this pretty cool. If that doesn't sound good to you, then maybe you can explain why specifically you're trying to avoid a phono preamp.

JSL

[d2ba]

Hi have an imac 24" and need more audio outputs---if i buy a second duet will this work

My DAW is Logic Pro 8

thanks David

[d2ba]

Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan

You will need 2 things. Get the load impedance right for the cartridge you are using. This is as simple as adding a parallel resistor across each input. Your cartridge should list its desired impedance. Without this the tonal balance will likely be off. A typical moving magnet cartridge needs 47 kOhms, if you use a moving coil it can vary a lot. The Duet has enough gain for almost any cartridge.

You will need to apply reverse RIAA compensation to the recorded input signal. There are tools that can do this in the digital domain. I would expect there are plug ins that can do it too. But without, the result will be unusable.

You will probably want to go in through the unbalanced inputs into the Duet and set the input to Instrument. Cartridges vary in their wiring and grounding, but the typical turntable output is unbalanced.

thanks I was purely trying to save desktop space

Dave

[halfguard]

does anyone know if the duet is working well with the imacs with the agere chipset?

[thermos]

Originally Posted by halfguard

does anyone know if the duet is working well with the imacs with the agere chipset?

I remember reading on here somewhere that all the Apogee units are compatible with the Agere chipset.

[Francis Vaughan]

I've never been all that happy with applying the RIAA curve after the AD conversion. It's a pretty extreme curve when you get right down to it, and most EQ plug-ins are not well set up to specify it.

I could well believe this. The RIAA equalisation requires 40dB end to end - which is huge. I would never want to try to specify the curve with a general purpose EQ system- as you say they are just not set up to do this well. It needs to be done in a dedicated built for purpose EQ. Otherwise I could easily see the final result being less than stellar.

If you think about it, just the high frequency component of the requirement is losing you 3.3 bits worth of headroom. The low bass is 6.6 bits below the highest top end. Unless the equalisation is done very carefully, with a lot of care taken over precision, it won't be good.

One company that sells specialised software for digital vinyl recording, Diamond Cut Productions Homepage sells a "flat preamp" that specifically does not do the RIAA equalisation before the ADC. But again, their software is designed for purpose. Many enthusiasts will want the ability to tweak the curves anyway - pre RIAA adoption there was much variation between record companies - so collectors of old recording need to have custom EQ available.

[kincept]

what are the best monitors to use with the duet? I was thinking of the mackie mr5 but the unbalanced is in a RCA form.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by kincept

what are the best monitors to use with the duet? I was thinking of the mackie mr5 but the unbalanced is in a RCA form.

when i used my DUET with my studio setup i used them with Genelec 8040 which have balanced inputs. i have a monitor controller though so i only need to plug the DUET into that which in turn fed my Genelec

if i were you i would not buy the best speakers for the interface but rather buy the best speakers for your studio and that you can afford

i've never tried the Mackie's

RCA is unbalanced anyways and will work perfect with the DUET however i would opt for speakers that have balanced connections that also support unbalanced using TS cables

good luck

[kincept]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

when i used my DUET with my studio setup i used them with Genelec 8040 which have balanced inputs. i have a monitor controller though so i only need to plug the DUET into that which in turn fed my Genelec

if i were you i would not buy the best speakers for the interface but rather buy the best speakers for your studio and that you can afford

i've never tried the Mackie's

RCA is unbalanced anyways and will work perfect with the DUET however i would opt for speakers that have balanced connections that also support unbalanced using TS cables

good luck

Thanks for answering my posts you have been a great help!

So do the RCA inputs make the sound worse? vs TRS

[kincept]

IF I added in a cheap mixer (mackie makes one for 100 bucks) would that change the sound of the DUET? through speakers through monitors?

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by kincept

what are the best monitors to use with the duet? I was thinking of the mackie mr5 but the unbalanced is in a RCA form.

Very good advice.

Originally Posted by kincept

IF I added in a cheap mixer (mackie makes one for 100 bucks) would that change the sound of the DUET? through speakers through monitors?

Anything in the signal path is going to change the sound, and if it's something inexpensive, it won't be for the better. How do you intend to connect and use the mixer in the setup?

JSL

[kincept]

lets just forget about the mixer,
I just want monitors, nothing over 300 bucks.
I was looking at the mackies but noticed they dont except unbalanced trs like the duet has.
Some advised not to use RCA unbalanced inputs on the monitors ? I guess because its not a good connection to use from the duet?

then I wondered is it better to find a monitor that accepts unbalanced trs? instead of via rca?

[staudio]

Originally Posted by kincept

lets just forget about the mixer,
I just want monitors, nothing over 300 bucks.
I was looking at the mackies but noticed they dont except unbalanced trs like the duet has.
Some advised not to use RCA unbalanced inputs on the monitors ? I guess because its not a good connection to use from the duet?

then I wondered is it better to find a monitor that accepts unbalanced trs? instead of via rca?

Many monitors with balanced inputs will accept an unbalanced signal if connected using the proper cables, the specifics of the wiring of the cables can vary depending on the speakers, you should contact the manufacturer for those details.

Unbalanced is perfectly good for any use, as long as the length of the cables is kept as short as possible. I don't use any unbalanced cable that is longer than 10 feet. I usually try to keep them shorter than 6 feet if possible. The Duet is a very capable unit.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by kincept

lets just forget about the mixer,
I just want monitors, nothing over 300 bucks.
I was looking at the mackies but noticed they dont except unbalanced trs like the duet has.
Some advised not to use RCA unbalanced inputs on the monitors ? I guess because its not a good connection to use from the duet?

then I wondered is it better to find a monitor that accepts unbalanced trs? instead of via rca?

no worries, we hope that you can get this sorted

RCA will work fine but it's just not a good connector. i don't really think you would notice the difference though

ideally, especially for software controlled interfaces you should have some sort of monitor controller between the interface and the speakers to protect your speakers. you should then mute output to the speakers until the computer has started up properly since you will get clicks and pops when sample rate is changing or when the drivers kick in on boot up. it would change the sound a little but not by much that you would have to worry about

it is possible to connect from unbalanced TS to XLR unbalanced if you modify the cable and most importantly if the XLR connection on the monitors support it

[kincept]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

no worries, we hope that you can get this sorted

RCA will work fine but it's just not a good connector. i don't really think you would notice the difference though

ideally, especially for software controlled interfaces you should have some sort of monitor controller between the interface and the speakers to protect your speakers. you should then mute output to the speakers until the computer has started up properly since you will get clicks and pops when sample rate is changing or when the drivers kick in on boot up. it would change the sound a little but not by much that you would have to worry about

it is possible to connect from unbalanced TS to XLR unbalanced if you modify the cable and most importantly if the XLR connection on the monitors support it

Do i really need a monitor controller< what is the difference between monitor controller and a mixer?

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by kincept

Do i really need a monitor controller< what is the difference between monitor controller and a mixer?

well it's the same thing in a way - i think there's more electronics in a full blown mixer that can and generally does affect the sound (and this is desirable in cases) whereas the monitor controller is geared towards giving you specific monitoring functions without affecting your sound - that's why passive monitor controllers are the best

fwiw i used to use the mackie 1402VLZ Pro for monitoring before i got the big know however i reckon i'm going to upgrade now again

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by kincept

Do i really need a monitor controller< what is the difference between monitor controller and a mixer?

According to the Apogee guy that has posted on GS regularly the monitor controller on the duet is a digitally controlled analogue volume control, so i.e. you don't loose bit depth by not having it at 0.

So it's pointless putting a further monitor controller in the chain.

[macleodgrant]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

According to the Apogee guy that has posted on GS regularly the monitor controller on the duet is a digitally controlled analogue volume control, so i.e. you don't loose bit depth by not having it at 0.

So it's pointless putting a further monitor controller in the chain.

you can essentially avoid a mixer if you're in the habit of turning on your monitors last once everything else is up and running and initialised. my speakers are set at a specific volume with a controller between them and my interface. the controller has a hardware mute button which can protect them from bursts and interface initialisation and sample rate settings changes, etc

even then you can still get burts and random sounds so it's good to have hardware control for immediate adjustment if necessary - that mute button has come in might handy at times. when you start up the computer, you're relying on the settings to be remembered at what you had them on the DUET

anyways,just a suggestion which i'm sure many would agree with

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

you can essentially avoid a mixer if you're in the habit of turning on your monitors last once everything else is up and running and initialised. my speakers are set at a specific volume with a controller between them and my interface. the controller has a hardware mute button which can protect them from bursts and interface initialisation and sample rate settings changes, etc

even then you can still get burts and random sounds so it's good to have hardware control for immediate adjustment if necessary - that mute button has come in might handy at times. when you start up the computer, you're relying on the settings to be remembered at what you had them on the DUET

anyways,just a suggestion which i'm sure many would agree with

I used to use a SM Pro passive controller, but don't use it anymore now with the Duet. I tend to turn my monitors on first, and never have any issues with pops and stuff, but I also have a tendency to keep the level turned down (in between monitoring) so I know most f the time when I turn on the mac there's not going to be a problem, as the duet holds the last level you left it at.

[d2ba]

Im asking this question every couple of months--so here we go again!!!
has anybody tried two Apogee Duets together in Logic
I do not want the form factor of the ensemble --I want to use two Duets

I have an Apogee Duet and love the sound--its sounds better to my
ears than the Digidesign 96i I once owned.
I need one more output to process mono tracks through my Korg-MS-20
and EH Memory Man Vintage and Space Echo 201
Is it possible to use 2 x Apogee Duets in Logic


thanks again
David

[Francis Vaughan]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

According to the Apogee guy that has posted on GS regularly the monitor controller on the duet is a digitally controlled analogue volume control, so i.e. you don't loose bit depth by not having it at 0.

So it's pointless putting a further monitor controller in the chain.

I assume you mean Max. However I doubt he said that. The input levels in the Duet are analogue gain controls, but the output level is digital. It occurs inside the ADC/DAC chip.

This does however mirror some of other other discussions raging about GS at the moment. So long as the noise floor of the whole system is greater than the LSB of the DAC (something that is hard to avoid with a 24 bit device - even it if it only good for 21 bits) then you still don't lose any resolution, because the resolution is noise limited and not bit depth limited.

[keagan]

Originally Posted by d2ba

Im asking this question every couple of months--so here we go again!!!
has anybody tried two Apogee Duets together in Logic
I do not want the form factor of the ensemble --I want to use two Duets

I have an Apogee Duet and love the sound--its sounds better to my
ears than the Digidesign 96i I once owned.
I need one more output to process mono tracks through my Korg-MS-20
and EH Memory Man Vintage and Space Echo 201
Is it possible to use 2 x Apogee Duets in Logic


thanks again
David

yes, you can create a aggregate device in audio/midi setup (in your utilities folder). And then once in logic pick the aggregate device as you're input/output.

[d2ba]

Im getting emails from the Logic Users group saying
"
Apogee that they have disabled the ability to do this with two or more Duets.
You can only do this with one duet and one other device which is not a duet"


Bet you no one in the world has even tried with two duets