![]() | All Advertisers |
| | #1 |
| Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 67
Thread Starter | Pushing the Faders in a DAW Hi all... I use Sonar 5 producer and am beginning to mix a project which averages about 20 tracks per song. I seem to be making a habit of pushing the individual track faders up to a point where, even though they are not clipping, the master bus is going over by 3-5 or even more db's. First, I'm not sure I understand how if none of the individual tracks are close to clipping, why the master is? And more importantly for my purposes...what strategy should I employ here? I have just been cutting the master fader by 3-6db's to the point where I won't clip but it feels like I might be sacrificing resolution or overall sonic quality....How important is it to keep the master bus around unity gain (0dbs)? thanks for any input here! |
| | |
| | #2 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,709
| This is an often misunderstood subject with much voodoo talk. I'll try to write as clear as possible. First the explanation: your master bus is overloading (clipping) because it is the sum of all your channels. Let' say, if your master bus can only contain a digit as large as 10, and all of your 16 faders each containing a value of 1, your master bus will be overloading with a value of 6. Get it? As for how to avoid this situation, or if avoiding it is necessary at all: The quick version: to be on the safe side, do not clip your master bus (or your channels if you require fidelity in your sound). This is done by lowering all your channel faders until no clipping occurs in your master bus. The longer version: In a floating point sequencer (this is how it calculates data) there is no - and I repeat - no difference in sound quality between A. raising your faders (clipping the master bus) and then lowering the master fader until it stops clipping, and B. lowering your faders and raising your master fader (or leaving it at unity). This is easily proven with a null test (a phase flip test where identical files will null out when played simultaneously). But the story doesn't end there. Because that's rarely how we mix in a computer. We like output to busses and sum compress (e.g. drums) or in general add plug-ins to the bus and/or master bus. And then you have a problem if you're coming in too hot, even though the fader doesn't show any clipping going on. That's because now you're overloading the input side of the plug-in, and that's another story. You can test this by inserting a limiter plug-in such as the Waves L1/L2 on a bus or master. Make sure the master is actually overloading but you've lowered the fader so it doesn't show. Notice how the limiter is already active without you having adjusted the threshold. Finally there's no reason to aim for such hot mixes in 24 bits. A peak of around -6 to -3 dBFS is more than adequate. Most mastering engineers prefer a mix that doesn't peak any higher than that. |
| | |
| | #3 |
| Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Finland, Europe
Posts: 418
| Well put Lagerfeld. - Jesse - |
| | |
| | #4 |
| Gear Guru Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 14,279
| Couldn't have said it better myself... but it probably would have taken me about three times as many words and I probably would have worked in a story or two from my childhood. ![]() Our DAW mixers work just about like a 3DW mixer for these purposes... You don't want to clip your output converters or any fixed point audio file -- and many or perhaps most plugs are optimized for the "normal" sub-0 dBfs range so you've got to watch out for them along the way. Reminds me of a time... musta been back around '64 or so... when...
__________________ day job | A Year of Songs | music and social stuff | mutant pop on facebook | roots acoustic on facebook |
| | |
| | #5 |
| Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 67
Thread Starter | thanks so much...i actually understand now!!! |
| | |
| | #6 |
| Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Seattle
Posts: 322
| I agree with the above. I would also restate that mixing super hot isn't necessary. If "everything" needs to be louder -than leave it until mastering. Concentrate on getting the mix right.
__________________ Ah. I love the smell of entitlement in the morning.... -Lynn Fuston |
| | |
| | #7 |
| Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Australia
Posts: 277
| |
| | |
| | #8 | |
| Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 312
| Quote:
don't worry about mastering... don't worry about where you are peaking... unless you are clipping and you hear unpleasant distortion... which is usually the case when clipping the master buss of a DAW... well.. most DAW's. if your vibe is audioslave... then mix it loud... if your vibe is alison krauss... mix it soft, warm and intimate. ![]() | |
| | |
| | #9 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,280
| Quote:
![]() | |
| | |
| | #10 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,709
| Quote:
Delivering a 24 bit mix that peaks at e.g. -12 dBFS, -6 dBFS or -3 dBFS will basically have 0% influence on the final sound or loudness of the mastered track. What's relevant is how the song is mixed i.e how the different parts in the song are mixed (and compressed/limited) in respect to each other. Not having the final mix song peaking near 0 dBFS. If anything, delivering a mix that peaks at -3 dBFS or above could have a detrimental effect on the final outcome, as you risk the mastering engineer having to attenuate the whole signal digitally (depending on what chain he's using). Even assuming he's only cutting (not boosting) at the first level of EQ, phase changes will likely cause the mix to overload when printed very hot, thus introducing an extra processing step of unnecessary attenuation across the whole spectrum. | |
| | |
| | #11 | |
| Gear interested Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1
| Quote:
Your Good. | |
| | |
| | #12 | ||
| Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 312
| Quote:
i've seen and heard alot of pre-mastered mixes done by tops guys on SSL's. i've never seen or heard a mix peaking at -3db... let alone -12db. that's just ludicrous. most had peaks near 0db and already had a RMS around -12 to -14 db. i'm talking about guys people have heard. granted if a mix is slammed with compression (which i don't recommend) but is only peaking at -12db... bringing it up to commercial level won't be a problem. no one should ever mix a song thinking about the mastering engineer. Quote:
| ||
| | |
| | #13 | |
| Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Seattle
Posts: 322
| Quote:
| |
| | |
| | #14 | |
| Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 312
| Quote:
| |
| | |
| | #15 | |
| PC Moderator | and just keep in mind, that digital levels are not analogue levels. if you have -3dB digital peaking, you are counting samples, not measuring analogue signal. that is why things like the sonalksis free G or Inspector XXL are showing diffrent results than your sequencer. cheers
__________________ Quote:
www.georgenecola.com produce & mix it shop.georgenecola.com gear & fun blog.georgenecola.com reviews & gear soundcloud.com | |
| | |
| | #16 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,731
| Quote:
And of course you have to take the mastering process into consideration , mixing is about balance,seperation,soundscape and anything else you can think of but not about maximum level, this is simply not the stage it's done at ! The mastering dude needs at least 2-3db to do his thing and give you a great sounding product ! At near 0db he has no more headroom to work with and would somehow have to find a way to drop the level ! If you are wondering where your mix should sit , call a mastering house and ask them how hot should you print your mix for them , this might clear things up ... ![]() | |
| | |
| | #17 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,709
| Quote:
Well, you need to get out more then if you think -3 dbFS or -12 dBFS is ludicrous. And talk to some more mastering engineers too. Again, I'm talking about peak levels, not RMS. You obviously still don't understand how things work but seem intent on insisting on something that's simply not correct without providing arguments (which don't exist of course). There's actually a lot of good information on this subject for you to read, both on Gearslutz and perhaps using my link list here: Popmusic.dk - Links - The Ultimative Link List - Articles - Free Plug-ins - Gear - Equipment - Links Overview I'm not saying some people (professional or not) aren't delivering mixes that peak at -3dBFS or above, I'm just saying what's best and what most people deliver to mastering. And I'm providing you with a techincal founded explanation to why it's so. | |
| | |
| | #18 | |
| PC Moderator | Quote:
![]() ![]() now, it's timbaland ![]() ![]() | |
| | |
| | #19 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,709
| If you're thinking of Barbie Girl with Aqua, actually that's Johnny Jam & Delgado (also Danish), which dwarfs my 6 million with about 12 million or so. I did do a medley for Aqua though. |
| | |
| | #20 |
| PC Moderator | |
| | |
| | #21 |
| Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: London
Posts: 231
| |
| | |
| | #22 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,479
| This is what I hate about digital. In the good ole analog days, I could keep piling up tracks as I go along (recording BV) and the levels pretty much stayed constant... but with digital, doing the same thing, recording BV vocals, the levels just keep increasing and you've got to keep pulling individual faders down as you go along recording...
__________________ THE MPCIST ![]() |
| | |
| | #23 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,709
| Yeah but don't forget you were substituting headroom for subjective distortion. Not necessarily a bad trade off - mayb even desirable - but not objectively better. I actually like the hybrid workflow/sound of digital ITB mixing and analog outboard processing, the best of both worlds. |
| | |
| | #24 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,776
| Quote:
| |
| | |
| | #25 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: in my studio mostly
Posts: 501
| Quote:
treat yellow as red. there ![]() | |
| | |
| | #26 | |
| Gear nut | Quote:
Now, maybe I'm wrong here.. but I've learned that this isn't exactly correct. Doubling the amount of signal in dBFS in the box will only yield a +3dB increase on the master bus. That is why when you have two things that peak at -16dB your master bus peaks at -13dB. Am I wrong here? D-
__________________ D-Bird Bached Up Records | |
| | |
| | #27 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,992
| +2 on that. +1 for the song, and +1 for being more successful than me. ![]() If only he had chosen to use his power for good instead of evil.
__________________ - It looks just like a Telefunken U47 - with leather. You'll love it ... - Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny. - It doesn't make much difference how the paint is put on as long as something has been said. Technique is just a means of arriving at a statement. |
| | |
| | #28 | |
| Gear Guru Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 14,279
| Quote:
I mean, sure, if you were pingponging BU vox, maybe saturating the tape, there's a sort of limiting process going on. But if you simply had 8 or 10 tracks of BU vox and you start bringing up the faders on more and more tracks your buss level goes up. I still use an analog board most every day I record, and I guarantee you the basic principles governing this have not been repealed. | |
| | |
| | #29 |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,678
| Re: "no one should ever mix a song thinking about the mastering engineer." Oh man...nobody here wants to cut you down, but you're talking like you know and you don't. Listen to the man...he knows...and he's kindly giving you very valuable info. |
| | |
| | #30 | |
| Lives for gear | Quote:
Respect. and you know you're stuff. ps the chick from aqua was hot! | |
| | |
New Reply
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Similar Threads | ||||
| Thread | Thread starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Procontrol or other DAW controller, how many faders to have | Ram Jam | So much gear, so little time! | 7 | 4th February 2006 09:47 PM |
| Who does DAW mixes without faders ? | andre tchmil | So much gear, so little time! | 39 | 7th November 2005 08:12 PM |
| Here's A Site i'm pushing on Slutz | r0ck1r0ck2 | So much gear, so little time! | 1 | 1st September 2005 08:51 AM |
| pushing emotions through mixing | strauss | So much gear, so little time! | 5 | 4th October 2004 03:59 AM |
| |