Sample delay plugin for PTLE

[Hope209]

Is there a plugin out there similar to UAD's sample delay plugin, which can delay a track a specified number of samples? So if you're inserting an outboard piece in Pro Tools LE and you're getting so many samples of delay, you insert this plugin, enter the sample delay amount, and it will shift it back.

[sardi]

Time Adjuster.

In the delay section in your plug-in list.

[Hope209]

Hmm, I can't seem to get this to work. I have a kick track, duplicated it and put an outboard compressor on the second track. The second track's dly amount says 6. I put the Time Adjuster there, set it to 6 and it's still out of time. Since the Time Adjuster itself introduces 4 samples of delay I then set it to 10....still not in time. And everytime I raise the Time Adjuster amount, the delay amount on the track will go up 6....

[BadJones]

If memory serves me right you insert the plug on the other tracks. It just delays the samples, it doesn't put them back. Let me know if I'm wrong.

[dual0568]

This is a bit confusing. I just printed a track with outboard and the delay is definetly in the 1000's. Unless that small sample amount is what its above the buffer size?

But let's lets you have a kick with an outboard delaying 1002 samples, and a snare with an outboard delaying 1046 samples. You can't put that time adjuster on all the other tracks and have it set at 1002 samples to catch up with the kick, because then it won't be in time with the snare. So if you set all the other tracks according to the track with the HIGHEST delay amount (in this case snare), they'll be in time with the the snare, but then on the kick track you'll have to subtract 1046-1002, and put the difference in the time adjuster on the kick track....

[peeder]

You are experiencing hardware latency because of your outboard insert. You will need to find the right compensation time for all the other tracks, and move your hardware return so that it plays "sooner" than the other tracks. Bus everything that doesn't go through a hardware insert to a bus on an aux input, and delay it all there.

[lozion]

Originally Posted by peeder

You are experiencing hardware latency because of your outboard insert. You will need to find the right compensation time for all the other tracks, and move your hardware return so that it plays "sooner" than the other tracks. Bus everything that doesn't go through a hardware insert to a bus on an aux input, and delay it all there.

Exactly what I'm doing and still its out of phase. I calculated my ADDA conversion latency to 60 samples so all that is not going thru the hardware insert is bussed to an aux with a the time ajuster plug set to 60 samples and still its not in sync...
What gives? Losing my mind here trying to use outboard comps on busses...
Peeder?

Btw, the delay incurred by the ADDA stages is shown to be 6 samples in the mixer window... that has to be incorrect, why? Deliberate gimping?

[lozion]

This is too important so be prepared to send the Bump Police...

[s.d.finley]

When I used LE all the time, I would just re-record the track back into LE. Nudge the new waveform to match the starting time of the old waveform, and invert the phase if needed.

Sure this takes alil more time, but you'd be right on the money timing wise. You could do this even if you are at youre track limit, by using the playlist functions.

Just continue to audition the tracks as yall been doing, swap some playlists around, re-record, nudge the new track, swap the playlist some more.

In the TDM world, IIRC, which usually isnt the case, Eventide makes a delay plug that will shift a track forward. Taken from Evetides site after some searching....

"Precision Time Align™ offers precise positive or negative time alignment of individual tracks. Useful for bringing close-miked drums, overhead mics, and room mics into phase alignment."

[lozion]

Alright, lets take a stupidly simple example to illustrate my predicament.

-Create 2 tracks. Import same audio on both.
-Set both tracks to display delay in the mix window
-On track 1 insert outboard compressor
-On track 2 insert Time adjuster plug-in set to delay displayed on track 1 so both are the same.
-flip phase on time adjuster.

Simple null test right? Problem is it doesnt null. It doesnt null you will say because the outboard changes the enveloppe so both signals are now different hence no nulling.
Fair enough, but it isnt a sonic difference, its a timing difference, even with the outboard set to bypass it doesnt null. Converter latency is not detected by PT. To prove this, I've re-recorded the audio file doing a AD/DA loop, and nudged the track until they would null, determining my converter latency at 60 samples.

Now, it seems the insert "plug" itself incurs 6 samples of delay to the track. Plus the Time adjuster incurs 4 samples of delay.
Track 1 should have a total of 66 samples of delay: 60 for the outboard + 6 for the insert plug. Time adjuster should be set then to 66. And still no nulling...

Help me out here, I just cant seem to find an easy formula to simply insert the time ajuster on non outboard auxes so everything is in sync with my outboard comps.
Talking about mixing here not tracking...

[s.d.finley]

Originally Posted by lozion

Alright, lets take a stupidly simple example to illustrate my predicament.

-Create 2 tracks. Import same audio on both.
-Set both tracks to display delay in the mix window
-On track 1 insert outboard compressor
-On track 2 insert Time adjuster plug-in set to delay displayed on track 1 so both are the same.
-flip phase on time adjuster.

Simple null test right? Problem is it doesnt null. It doesnt null you will say because the outboard changes the enveloppe so both signals are now different hence no nulling.
Fair enough, but it isnt a sonic difference, its a timing difference, even with the outboard set to bypass it doesnt null. Converter latency is not detected by PT. To prove this, I've re-recorded the audio file doing a AD/DA loop, and nudged the track until they would null, determining my converter latency at 60 samples.

Now, it seems the insert "plug" itself incurs 6 samples of delay to the track. Plus the Time adjuster incurs 4 samples of delay.
Track 1 should have a total of 66 samples of delay: 60 for the outboard + 6 for the insert plug. Time adjuster should be set then to 66. And still no nulling...

Help me out here, I just cant seem to find an easy formula to simply insert the time ajuster on non outboard auxes so everything is in sync with my outboard comps.
Talking about mixing here not tracking...

Well,

I say keep sliding the time adjuster value around until it does null, and remember that stinking value!

OR

Try recording it, nudge, and the see exactly how much delay there really is...

I realize you are talking about mixing, but I am attempting to give you a work around, that works!

my .02 $

[lozion]

Hi & thanks for trying to help... I've tried what you described but:

Problem is I believe PT does compensate for re-recorded material so it is in sync with the rest. That value is X and I think it relates to the buffer setting as well. My AD/DA latency seems to be 60 samples but this is the result after the X value compensation has been applied. So there is no way of determining precisely what the time adjuster plug should be set to. You follow?
Here is what fellow slut Peeder answered in a pm, trying to shed some light on this topic. Btw, anybody who thinks Peeder should come "out of the closet" with his method, please join in this thread...

[/QUOTE]Ya thanks fella I do have a whole set of files and a protocol but I chickened out of publishing it. It does not only plugins but hardware inserts via pings. One problem is that there is variation from session to session, not much, but some. It's pretty infuriating they haven't fully automated this and made it reliable but that's how they make the money on HD. I'd love to polish up what I have and ship it off. But right now things are carazzeeee [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by s.d.finley

Well,

I say keep sliding the time adjuster value around until it does null, and remember that stinking value!

OR

Try recording it, nudge, and the see exactly how much delay there really is...

I realize you are talking about mixing, but I am attempting to give you a work around, that works!

my .02 $

[lozion]

cough cough...

[psycho_monkey]

What's your buffer size?

if your latency is in the thousands , chances are your buffer size is at the 1024 setting...I don't use hardware inserts myself, but I know this decreases when you decrease the buffer size.

Have you tried delay compensation of say 1024+converter delay, or similar?

[lozion]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

What's your buffer size?

if your latency is in the thousands , chances are your buffer size is at the 1024 setting...I don't use hardware inserts myself, but I know this decreases when you decrease the buffer size.

Have you tried delay compensation of say 1024+converter delay, or similar?

You know what, you maybe right.

1024buffer + 60converter + 6plug = 1090 samples.

They dont null, but its close. At least they sound in sync.
Will test this further. Thanks.

[peeder]

Ahh, never say anything you wouldn't mind reading in the New York Times the next morning...

I'm waiting till I get to a mix project to finalize my approach...I've been tracking with new talent lately (and even playing out again!) so I'm not there yet.

Basically I ended up having to use pinging and the time adjuster plugs. There are tricks that don't work with hardware inserts and don't even work reliably with all plugs and so I gave up on using all those tricks. But I have it where all the effects sends and everything else is 100% perfectly compensated no matter what you do with them. Once you get the hang of it, it ain't too bad.

Sorry to tease!

[lozion]

Yeah sorry Peeder, didnt want to put pressure, its just such an important matter for all LE/MP users with outboard... Not that this hasnt been discussed in great lenghts before...

Anyhoo, looks like that X value is indeed the buffer size and I remember reading somewhere that PT does compensate up to that value. So with the added converter delay, the total latency becomes outside of the possible compensation bounds therefore resulting a 60 samples difference (in my case). Plus the insert plug adds 6 samples as well.

Either you nudge those unprocessed tracks by 60+6 or better imo buss those channels to auxes with a time adjuster plug set to=1024 + 60 + 6 = 1090

Did I finally get this right??? And how come I couldnt find more info on this...
And dont tell to go to the DUC!

[peeder]

My tests are that it is NOT deterministic as you wish for when it comes to hardware inserts. There is converter latency, and there is variable system latency as well from what I could see. Therefore you must calibrate every session to have perfect plugin/insert delay compensation.

UAD plugins have a base of 2x the hardware buffer size as latency, but some UAD plugs have different latencies. Some plugs have variable latencies.

The document I've written is intimidatingly long...

[lozion]

I agree, from one session to another things dont seem to lock up as good as expected...
This is very frustrating, I believed there was only a X value to determine for the time adjuster plug and that was it. I have 34 possible inserts with my rig using PT M-P7.3.1cs2 and want to integrate more outboard now that I've circumvented PT's 18 i/o limitation. I know I'm close though...