MIDI In Pro Tools?

[diskjunkie]

Hi all,

I am considering a new DAW and PT 7 LE with the M-Box 2 Mini is one of the contenders. I was wondering how good or bad the Midi implementaion was in PTLE 7, especially concerning drums? I know PT did not have MIDI at one point, then they added it, but is it still very basic isn't it? How does it compare to Cubase, Logic, PD, or Live midi wise?

I ask because I will need the ability to program realistic sounding drum parts using something like Addictive Drums. I know in the past when trying to emulate a live drummer using samples I would have to spend quite a bit of time editing midi to making it sound convincing. I am not sure how much this new generation of virtual drum module will cut down on my midi editing time, but I imagine I should have good midi drum editing capabilities just in case I need them in the end, so any feedback is much appreciated.

People on this board have already been a huge help so far in helping me narrow down my DAW choices. For the time being I am considering PTLE 7 because I get the software, a bunch of plugs, and an interface for $300.00. Plus its Pro Tools. I mean if there were a 'standard' DAW this is it, for better or worse.

I am still considering Live, although after downloading the demo and reading up on it, I am not sure it is suited for how I want to work. I basically want to use my DAW as a glorified tape recorder with a built in advanced realistic drum machine. I am going to use Addictive Drums for the drum module, but I need a DAW that will allow me to quickly and easily edit MIDI drum data.

Digital Performer is probably in the lead as it is a bargain at half the cost of Logic and Cubase's full versions, it is reported to be stable on Macintel computers (what I plan to use it with), it uses core audio which I like, it is supposed to be great for film scoring (something I am interested in getting into) and I can upgrade to it from an older licence I have with MOTU for $300.00.

PT is still in the running though, the main drawback as I see it is just the MIDI issue, if this is even an issue. Who knows, maybe programming drums in either PT or DP is a nightmare? I just need to hear some feedback from users.

Thanks!

[Stiff]

Pro Tools have come along way in the midi development. It now has several groove templates (it's own, logics and mpc for instance) if that's your thing. The main thing that's different FOR ME when working with midi in Pro Tools compared to Logic (which I also work in) is that double clicking a region in logic opens a window with big midi notes to look at whereas Pro Tools stays in it window (you only use the edit and the mix). It's a workflow thing, and what suites you best is up to you to find out.

As for "just" making good sounding drums. all apps can do that, the plug-ins are so good these days... Find a DAW and learn to work it quick and then be creative

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by Stiff

Pro Tools have come along way in the midi development. It now has several groove templates (it's own, logics and mpc for instance) if that's your thing. The main thing that's different FOR ME when working with midi in Pro Tools compared to Logic (which I also work in) is that double clicking a region in logic opens a window with big midi notes to look at whereas Pro Tools stays in it window (you only use the edit and the mix). It's a workflow thing, and what suites you best is up to you to find out.

As for "just" making good sounding drums. all apps can do that, the plug-ins are so good these days... Find a DAW and learn to work it quick and then be creative

That does not sound like too big a difference to me. In fact I like the idea of one or two windows as I will have limited screen realestate on a 13 inch macbook.

[Stiff]

Well, I don't think it's the ONLY difference but the main difference for me

[halfguard]

i think you can do that in 7.3.........................

[blayz2002]

I'm quite interested in this as been using Logic for years with some MPC groove templates which definately feel beet than the Logic one's although those are good for hi hats and all the insruments on the Swing A, but for the kick and snare (I do a lot of hip hop and rnb) I need the MPC feel.

I was gonna post a question simular to this a while back as I'm looking to either swithc to cubase or pro tools..

So what doesn't Pro Tools do in Midi that you guys find is vital or annoying?

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

I'm quite interested in this as been using Logic for years with some MPC groove templates which definately feel beet than the Logic one's although those are good for hi hats and all the insruments on the Swing A, but for the kick and snare (I do a lot of hip hop and rnb) I need the MPC feel.

I was gonna post a question simular to this a while back as I'm looking to either swithc to cubase or pro tools..

So what doesn't Pro Tools do in Midi that you guys find is vital or annoying?

I like Cubase in use, its the reliability on the macintel side that concerns me and how they deal with bug fixes. Pro Tools looks like a very good option in this day and age, and with the M-Powered option you have much more flexibility in what interface you use.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

I'm quite interested in this as been using Logic for years with some MPC groove templates which definately feel beet than the Logic one's although those are good for hi hats and all the insruments on the Swing A, but for the kick and snare (I do a lot of hip hop and rnb) I need the MPC feel.

I was gonna post a question simular to this a while back as I'm looking to either swithc to cubase or pro tools..

So what doesn't Pro Tools do in Midi that you guys find is vital or annoying?

As I said, the groove templates in Pro Tools are plenty (and good), the templates from Logic are there, the templates from MPC are there (used them myself today ) and several others as well.

The whole "Pro Tools don't do midi any good" simply isn't true anymore, it was back in 5.x, but that was several years ago... it's just one of those old beliefs that won't die.

[nikki-k]

Hi!
I have recently put PT to rest for composing, and for this very reason. OK, a few reasons. But, there is promise, and I could see returning to PT once they implement a proper editor, like the Key Editor in Cubase for instance.

I own PT HD, PT LE, DP5, Logic Pro 7.2, and Cubase 4. I am working on a Mac Pro, and a MacBook Pro (core 2 duo). All of them have been running well for me, with the advantage of the non-PT apps being usable on the MBP with the built-in sound- a HUGE benfit for me. DP5 has no dongle, and that makes it nice on the MBP. But, DP5 falls short in several areas for me as well, so I am putting up with having a dongle to work. I bought a USB extension cable, plug the dongle into that, and this way, I do not risk snapping the dongle connector.

S0- why not PT? Editing MIDI is a PITA. Sure, if all you want to do is manipulate the note number, you are fine. But, if you want to edit velocities, CC's, etc across different sets of notes...well, IMO, note selection in these instances are a nightmare. I find I have to continually switch from Note view, to Region view, to Velocity view, to...!!!! Logic Pro has the Key type editor, and it is nice. Window linking is very cool...but, with the "hyperdraw" window/lane below for doing CC edits (yes, the velocity handling in the notes themselves is kinda neat), you are *limited* to a single CC lane at one time. Logic also has Hyperedit, which is a wild editor, especially for doing drums. The Environment allows some even cooler things. But, for my genre of music (prog rock), Cubase wins it here: Cycle record, each take can appear in the next Lane on that track, and just like Logic, the previous "take" can mute as the next begins- very cool! But how Cubase does Lanes with regions/parts/events that overlap and such- sorry, I just feel Cubase is the slickest in this aspect. While Logic also *allows* multiple regions/parts to be edited in a single MIDI Editor window, Cubase allows multiple lanes of CC below it! For me, this is huge. But then, once again, Logic Pro does have the Hyperedit window, which is very cool, but (as with some things in Logic) takes a bit of adjusting to "get in that headspace."

Wanna cycle record and have unique "takes" created each pass? Logic and Cubase love this. Pro Tools and DP do as well, but in PT, in Regions view on a MIDI track, right-click to see/list all those takes...well, it is buggy still, and you will almost never see the right Takes listed there, especially if you do not understand what prefs to set to what. Even when set proeprly though, it just does not work properly...yet. I have hope they will fix it. I have hope they will add a MIDI editor that you can use ala Logic and Cubase.

Both Logic and Cubase have taken cues from PT and tried to eliminate the outright need to use multiple windows for things, and make it easier and possible to keep to the Edit and Mix type windows for all simpler tasks. Digital Performer tries to do this, and actually has a VERY cool feature, where you have a window type with tabs up top, and you click a tab to have that window show what equals an Edit window, Arrange window, etc. Click a tab, and you are now seeing the selected material as a Key Editor type. Another tab, and now the window is a meter bridge; a score editor; etc. DP5 has some cool editing tools, and once you get your head around their way of thinking, it is very cool. I feel the DSP gets sucked up a bit quicker with DP though. Also, I find I want to be able to work with groups of MIDI notes as Regions, or Parts. There is only one window for that in DP5, and you cannot change the track size, so trying to edit in that manner is...well...<sigh>... ugh.

All work well for me, but Cubase seems to be the front runner. I would suggest doing what I ended up doing: sit down and figure out what you want to do, exactly. How do you work? How would you WANT to work, if you could create your own app? What are the highest priorities from those choices and wants and needs? The worst part for me is that I had to spend the money for each one of them just to be able to truly try them out to see which fit best. As aggravating as that may seem, just think of what it would be like to do it with the analogue world! Besides the sheer size of everything, the cash you would have to spend...lol!!! But if you can afford it, buy them all, try them, and sell off what you dont use.

Or, figure out your workflow, and then come back to this thread, and bounce ideas around maybe. Once you figure out HOW you WISH you could work, then you can begin to see which app will do something as close to that as possible, and you then simply choose which one has more of your most important aspects working NOW. PT will get upgraded. Cubase will get "fixed" for those things that are a little shakey right now (not much really wrong IMO; vst support on Intel Mac can be...aggravating at times). Logic is due for a pretty good upgrade. And DP5...oh, what will MOTU do next? With a good, solid release from them, they could be right in there with the rest. DP5 is excellent today, dont get me wrong. But, for me, it just lacks in a few areas (MIDI region level editing, cycle recording, DSP usage, scoring, a few bugs I dont like). It is close to PT in "headspace" on the surface, which is cool. For film, DP is supposed to be excellent. Bring it up a few steps, and I would probably drop Cubase for it, and might not find a reason to go back to PT unless they finally ever allowed me to use my built-in audio. I am only using PT for mixing right now...trying to find plugs to "replace" the TDM ones I love.

Long enough post? Yeah, it can be that complicated. Good luck...it sucks trying to decide "which one?"

[audiofreak]

I own pro tools LE 7.3 with an Mbox2 and compose using the midi... works well with me. If you are more musically (with notes and chords) you could use a notation program like Sibelius and then export the midi file from that into Pro Tools.

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by nikki-k

Hi!
I have recently put PT to rest for composing, and for this very reason. OK, a few reasons. But, there is promise, and I could see returning to PT once they implement a proper editor, like the Key Editor in Cubase for instance.

I own PT HD, PT LE, DP5, Logic Pro 7.2, and Cubase 4. I am working on a Mac Pro, and a MacBook Pro (core 2 duo). All of them have been running well for me, with the advantage of the non-PT apps being usable on the MBP with the built-in sound- a HUGE benfit for me. DP5 has no dongle, and that makes it nice on the MBP. But, DP5 falls short in several areas for me as well, so I am putting up with having a dongle to work. I bought a USB extension cable, plug the dongle into that, and this way, I do not risk snapping the dongle connector.

S0- why not PT? Editing MIDI is a PITA. Sure, if all you want to do is manipulate the note number, you are fine. But, if you want to edit velocities, CC's, etc across different sets of notes...well, IMO, note selection in these instances are a nightmare. I find I have to continually switch from Note view, to Region view, to Velocity view, to...!!!! Logic Pro has the Key type editor, and it is nice. Window linking is very cool...but, with the "hyperdraw" window/lane below for doing CC edits (yes, the velocity handling in the notes themselves is kinda neat), you are *limited* to a single CC lane at one time. Logic also has Hyperedit, which is a wild editor, especially for doing drums. The Environment allows some even cooler things. But, for my genre of music (prog rock), Cubase wins it here: Cycle record, each take can appear in the next Lane on that track, and just like Logic, the previous "take" can mute as the next begins- very cool! But how Cubase does Lanes with regions/parts/events that overlap and such- sorry, I just feel Cubase is the slickest in this aspect. While Logic also *allows* multiple regions/parts to be edited in a single MIDI Editor window, Cubase allows multiple lanes of CC below it! For me, this is huge. But then, once again, Logic Pro does have the Hyperedit window, which is very cool, but (as with some things in Logic) takes a bit of adjusting to "get in that headspace."

Wanna cycle record and have unique "takes" created each pass? Logic and Cubase love this. Pro Tools and DP do as well, but in PT, in Regions view on a MIDI track, right-click to see/list all those takes...well, it is buggy still, and you will almost never see the right Takes listed there, especially if you do not understand what prefs to set to what. Even when set proeprly though, it just does not work properly...yet. I have hope they will fix it. I have hope they will add a MIDI editor that you can use ala Logic and Cubase.

Both Logic and Cubase have taken cues from PT and tried to eliminate the outright need to use multiple windows for things, and make it easier and possible to keep to the Edit and Mix type windows for all simpler tasks. Digital Performer tries to do this, and actually has a VERY cool feature, where you have a window type with tabs up top, and you click a tab to have that window show what equals an Edit window, Arrange window, etc. Click a tab, and you are now seeing the selected material as a Key Editor type. Another tab, and now the window is a meter bridge; a score editor; etc. DP5 has some cool editing tools, and once you get your head around their way of thinking, it is very cool. I feel the DSP gets sucked up a bit quicker with DP though. Also, I find I want to be able to work with groups of MIDI notes as Regions, or Parts. There is only one window for that in DP5, and you cannot change the track size, so trying to edit in that manner is...well...<sigh>... ugh.

All work well for me, but Cubase seems to be the front runner. I would suggest doing what I ended up doing: sit down and figure out what you want to do, exactly. How do you work? How would you WANT to work, if you could create your own app? What are the highest priorities from those choices and wants and needs? The worst part for me is that I had to spend the money for each one of them just to be able to truly try them out to see which fit best. As aggravating as that may seem, just think of what it would be like to do it with the analogue world! Besides the sheer size of everything, the cash you would have to spend...lol!!! But if you can afford it, buy them all, try them, and sell off what you dont use.

Or, figure out your workflow, and then come back to this thread, and bounce ideas around maybe. Once you figure out HOW you WISH you could work, then you can begin to see which app will do something as close to that as possible, and you then simply choose which one has more of your most important aspects working NOW. PT will get upgraded. Cubase will get "fixed" for those things that are a little shakey right now (not much really wrong IMO; vst support on Intel Mac can be...aggravating at times). Logic is due for a pretty good upgrade. And DP5...oh, what will MOTU do next? With a good, solid release from them, they could be right in there with the rest. DP5 is excellent today, dont get me wrong. But, for me, it just lacks in a few areas (MIDI region level editing, cycle recording, DSP usage, scoring, a few bugs I dont like). It is close to PT in "headspace" on the surface, which is cool. For film, DP is supposed to be excellent. Bring it up a few steps, and I would probably drop Cubase for it, and might not find a reason to go back to PT unless they finally ever allowed me to use my built-in audio. I am only using PT for mixing right now...trying to find plugs to "replace" the TDM ones I love.

Long enough post? Yeah, it can be that complicated. Good luck...it sucks trying to decide "which one?"

Okay, this is a great post and helps a lot. I know there are few people who have the chance to try them all, but man, it is great to hear from someone who has!!! This would be a great addition to my "Which DAW" thread. Its interesting after all that Cubase came out on top for you.

As for the way I want to work, I am not 100% sure that has been estabilished. Basically I want to be able to quickly and easily be able lay down a realistic sounding drum track using something like Addictive Drums or BFD and then be able to add my guitar and bass playing and mix it all down with the least amount of hassel and headache.

People keep telling me that PT would be fine for MIDI which has made me seriously consider PT. I would just hate to spend the money and then find that a certain MIDI function that I would like to use that is easy in say C4 is tedious in PT.

On the other hand, I would be upset if I bought a version of C4 and it didn't work or was buggy as hell on my machine. I was very happy with my last version of Cubase SE, but VST5/32 was a bit of a nightmare.

Too bad about DP eating up a lot of DSP, I hear this from just about everyone. I don't think I can't afford to spare the DSP as I will be running native plugs on a MacBook, so this concerns me. I can't stand it when screen redraws start to get slow and I can no longer edit parameters while the music is playing in real time, very frustrating! I do like that you get the FULL version of DP for $500.00. I mean who else out there is doing that? That tab feature also sounds very very cool as I will have limited screen realestate. I mean how cool is that to use your DAW like you would your web browser?

As for Logic, I feel it is in a strange place in its evolution. Perhaps this is mostly the view of an outsider, but I feel Apple is up to something and I feel that I either may regret buying it if I do, or not buying it if I don't. Eitherway, I feel that it is due for something major, but I can use speculation today, so I just have to go with what is KNOWN today. Although I love the idea of a more advanced GarageBand in a sense, I don't feel that this is what Logic is, even though it is Apple.

I sometimes almost feel like I can take the limitations of Garage Band just for the simplicity of the way of working with it is, but then I want to do something "advanced" and I can't, or I can but in a really strange roundabout way that makes GB not so simple and easy anymore, which defeats the purpose.

I guess its that desire to keep it simple at the expense of loosing some features that leads me to Pro Tools. I get the impression that PT has tried to keep it simple in a sense while being very advanced in its mixing and audio editing features if not quite as advanced in its midi implementation.

Still weighing all of this in my DAW choice, but I love this board for helping me do this with feedback from actual users everyday use.

nikki-k, thanks for the great post, its the one I've been waiting for! Just out of curiosity what kind of music do you write or produce?

[nikki-k]

Hi!
I have come home to my first, and true love, prog rock. OK, KISS was my first love (Destroyer and Alive!...how can you beat those for albums that scream BUY ME!!! ), but Zepp...wow...which then le(a)d to prog rock heaven for me.

You say you want to lay down drums quickly. This is an area of great contention for me as well! I am not a drummer. I am also a paraplegic, so I cannot use my feet for pedals of any kind. I therefor can use: keys; finger pads; drum pads; some sci-fi type thing I have not found yet. I love my PadKontrol. Next, it is learning to play drums. I did the same as when I learned to play guitar: grabbed literature, and then jammed to albums! But how does this help you? Well, while doing all this, I said to myself, "Self, what would be the most ideal way to lay down drum tracks? How about you being a 'finger drummer,' and not a great one at that yet?" And this was how I came up with one of my wishes: To be able to work with MIDI drums the SAME EXACT WAY I love to use for doing guitar, bass, etc parts, which are audio tracks. And that is, for me, cycle. Set a start point, with pre-rool/count-in, and then JAM. Or, maybe I will set the cycle, with an extra bar or two to give my head and hands a rest each cycle, and hit play. If I find a groove I play fits well, hit record, and continue through.

Pro Tools does this. But, to review the various takes for the MIDI tracks? It currently is a PITA in my opinion. The takes SHOULD be able to be seen by right-clicking and hovering over the "Alternate:" menu item. Unfortunately, it does not work properly, and you will (most likely) not see all of your takes, and perhaps, none. You will need to dig into the regions list to find them...

Cubase and Logic do well here, with Cubase being king IMO. A single track, set to Lanes Mode on, and then Stacked. Each pass recorded, whether MIDI or Audio, is a take in it's own Lane within that single track. As you complete a pass, the take is muted as you begin the next pass. All done? Using the Mute tool, you can now, as you cycle play, mute takes to allow the one above it play back instead, thus easily auditioning your takes. With excellent colour coding, slicing and then muting sections of takes allow "priority" of playback pass to the next available, unmuted lane above it! The unmuted, currently "playable" material actually changes colour to SHOW you exactly what parts will be playing!!!

Logic allows this, but wthout Lanes. Each can be muted as you go to the next take while recording, as Cubase does. But, since the "headspace" of Logic is different, this type of composing/recording technique is slightly different. The Arrange window in Logic has tracks, and these tracks do not play directly out; instead, the info is passed onto the Environment, where it then exits to your monitors. MIDI and Audio passes can be treated the same during recording; during playback, however, MIDI is once again treated as MIDI traditionally has (unmute two or more takes, and they will play back at the same time; in Cubase, in stacked lanes mode, they do NOT- which was a prime reason to choose C4 for me). Set the cycle, hit record, and go, just like Cubase. No lanes in Logic though, since Logic acts much like Pro Tools TDM fixed voicing: you can have more than one track in the Arrange, or Edit, window that will "feed" an Object (Audio channel, MIDI instrument, etc). The lowest, active, unmuted piece of data on a track assigned to an Object will receive priority during the record cycle. You can have each pass set to mute as the next is begun, as in CUbase. A new "track" in the Logic Arrange window is created with each pass, if you desire. There are no lanes, so to have immediately visible seperate takes, this is the way to go. But, during playback, MIDI regions/parts that are unmuted will play, no matter what- there is no priority with MIDI regions asigned ot the same instrument/Object in Logic...which is why I preferred Cubase for this.

Logic is a very powerul tool. But, I found I did not need all the "attachments" for this "DAW Tool." I have not had problems with Cubase4 yet. But, I have been spending time learning Logic and C4 at the same time, comparing as I go. Why not including DP5? Well, it fell short in the cycle/takes thing before it gets out the door. Like Pro Tools, it feels great for working with the "final takes" once I have recorded them. But for the composing stage? DP5 and PT simply lacked some workflow abilities that I had decided I wanted above anything else.

Think of it this way...and it might not be easy to do at first:
What do you want to do? If compose music, then record it, edit (if necessary ), and mix to a distributable format is your answer, then it is time to decide: what, of those, is the most important stage for me? For some, edit and mix might be the most important. For me, it was composing. If I cannot compose in a manner that fits me best, the rest of the "jobs" are worthless. Right? All the apps can record, and all of them can be used to mix. But, to be able to compose in certain ways? Priceless for me. So, it comes next to: what type of music? With this type of music, what will me desired manners fo working be? I realized I like to open an app on my desktop or laptop, and get it going quickly...which DP5 excells at. But, once past this question, it came down to "takes." It is the composing stage, so I am going to have variances on ideas. Pro Tools has playlists, which are cool. But, building a comp from takes is difficult for me in PT. Cubase and Logic were much better for this for me. But, I wanted to be able to work with MIDI exactly as I work with Audio, as far as regions are concerned. Logic was close, but Cubase did it. Logic has very cool stock instruments...no doubt! But, I own VI's already, so I had to force myself to ignore that aspect, and get back to the actual workflow thing. Pro Tools also lost out due to the hardware thing; with DP, Logic and C4, I can use the built-in audio in my MacBook Pro! So, it is simply plugging in the dongle, and go. DP5, with no dongle, makes this slightly more attractive...just not enough for me.

BTW- I use BFD, which worked well in both Logic and C4. I have certain other instrument types I wanted to use, and both had them available for me. This has actually led me to decide on something: I want to have VI's that will work in Logic, DP, Pro Tools (via the wrapper, if need be), and Cubase. That way, no mater my choice, I will have them...they are valuable tools for me, so I consider them heavily.

Once I have the takes sitting there, and have my general idea down, it is time to start assembling a working order. Am I going to go intro, verse, chorus, etc? Or will I go intor, chorus, verse, chorus? Or intro, verse, pre-chorus, verse, pre-chorus, chorus? Or something different? Logic's folder system is one built of the idea that you have regions, and you want to archive them; Cubase has the idea that you have a set of Tracks, and you want to archive them out fo the way. Two distinctly different approaches!!! But, Cubase also had the Play Order track...very cool!!! Why? Well, you can build multiple Play Orders, which go into the Play Order list, accessible form that single Play Order track you can have. Think of this as the ONE track in Cubase that is like any track in Pro Tools: it has a playlist! But, this playlist is a quick way to tell Cubase: take all the material exactly between point A and point B, and call that "blah." Between C and D, caled, "walla." Etc. and then assemble thiese sections, without affecting the actual session/project!

I was happier with C4, but it came with a price: the nagging notion that it might not be entirely stable. I have seen the reports, and experienced no issues (touch wood!). But, I have some plug-ins that are not on VST for Intel Mac in a VST 2.4+ version. Some might not ever be available. But, I decided that the app was more important, and have sacrificed, and will find plug-ins that are similar. I would rather do that than find a new way to compose, or accept a second choice in ways to compose.

Now the caveat: Pro Tools is my fav for the rest of the work. And, over the next year or two, I can see Digi making Pro Tools an app that can do more of what I have found in C4. But, I want to write today.

Oh- btw- I also wanted to have some hard copy of my writings. I chose Sibelius G7. Still PPC only, so it runs via Rosetta (ugh). Not bad though, and I can do some very nice scores with guitar tab and such. Cubase is decent for this, but takes work to get it to look "right." IMO, Logic requires this as well, although not quite as much. But, as I work on a song, it is sooooo nice to have an app like Logic and Cubase that I can enter lyrics!!! Yep, both allow lyrics, and I cna then create a tacky vocal melody instrument to allow me to work on vocal lines, and get the lyrics fine tuned to fit them! When all is said and done though, I can export the MIDI from C4/Logic, and then take time in Sibelius G7 to create a nice, printable score, complete with lyrics, that I can place in a notebook. Maybe silly, but this wll give me a HUGE smile.

lots of choices, lots of genres, and we are all unique.

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by nikki-k

Hi!
I have come home to my first, and true love, prog rock. OK, KISS was my first love (Destroyer and Alive!...how can you beat those for albums that scream BUY ME!!! ), but Zepp...wow...which then le(a)d to prog rock heaven for me.

You say you want to lay down drums quickly. This is an area of great contention for me as well! I am not a drummer. I am also a paraplegic, so I cannot use my feet for pedals of any kind. I therefor can use: keys; finger pads; drum pads; some sci-fi type thing I have not found yet. I love my PadKontrol. Next, it is learning to play drums. I did the same as when I learned to play guitar: grabbed literature, and then jammed to albums! But how does this help you? Well, while doing all this, I said to myself, "Self, what would be the most ideal way to lay down drum tracks? How about you being a 'finger drummer,' and not a great one at that yet?" And this was how I came up with one of my wishes: To be able to work with MIDI drums the SAME EXACT WAY I love to use for doing guitar, bass, etc parts, which are audio tracks. And that is, for me, cycle. Set a start point, with pre-rool/count-in, and then JAM. Or, maybe I will set the cycle, with an extra bar or two to give my head and hands a rest each cycle, and hit play. If I find a groove I play fits well, hit record, and continue through.

Pro Tools does this. But, to review the various takes for the MIDI tracks? It currently is a PITA in my opinion. The takes SHOULD be able to be seen by right-clicking and hovering over the "Alternate:" menu item. Unfortunately, it does not work properly, and you will (most likely) not see all of your takes, and perhaps, none. You will need to dig into the regions list to find them...

Cubase and Logic do well here, with Cubase being king IMO. A single track, set to Lanes Mode on, and then Stacked. Each pass recorded, whether MIDI or Audio, is a take in it's own Lane within that single track. As you complete a pass, the take is muted as you begin the next pass. All done? Using the Mute tool, you can now, as you cycle play, mute takes to allow the one above it play back instead, thus easily auditioning your takes. With excellent colour coding, slicing and then muting sections of takes allow "priority" of playback pass to the next available, unmuted lane above it! The unmuted, currently "playable" material actually changes colour to SHOW you exactly what parts will be playing!!!

Logic allows this, but wthout Lanes. Each can be muted as you go to the next take while recording, as Cubase does. But, since the "headspace" of Logic is different, this type of composing/recording technique is slightly different. The Arrange window in Logic has tracks, and these tracks do not play directly out; instead, the info is passed onto the Environment, where it then exits to your monitors. MIDI and Audio passes can be treated the same during recording; during playback, however, MIDI is once again treated as MIDI traditionally has (unmute two or more takes, and they will play back at the same time; in Cubase, in stacked lanes mode, they do NOT- which was a prime reason to choose C4 for me). Set the cycle, hit record, and go, just like Cubase. No lanes in Logic though, since Logic acts much like Pro Tools TDM fixed voicing: you can have more than one track in the Arrange, or Edit, window that will "feed" an Object (Audio channel, MIDI instrument, etc). The lowest, active, unmuted piece of data on a track assigned to an Object will receive priority during the record cycle. You can have each pass set to mute as the next is begun, as in CUbase. A new "track" in the Logic Arrange window is created with each pass, if you desire. There are no lanes, so to have immediately visible seperate takes, this is the way to go. But, during playback, MIDI regions/parts that are unmuted will play, no matter what- there is no priority with MIDI regions asigned ot the same instrument/Object in Logic...which is why I preferred Cubase for this.

Logic is a very powerul tool. But, I found I did not need all the "attachments" for this "DAW Tool." I have not had problems with Cubase4 yet. But, I have been spending time learning Logic and C4 at the same time, comparing as I go. Why not including DP5? Well, it fell short in the cycle/takes thing before it gets out the door. Like Pro Tools, it feels great for working with the "final takes" once I have recorded them. But for the composing stage? DP5 and PT simply lacked some workflow abilities that I had decided I wanted above anything else.

Think of it this way...and it might not be easy to do at first:
What do you want to do? If compose music, then record it, edit (if necessary ), and mix to a distributable format is your answer, then it is time to decide: what, of those, is the most important stage for me? For some, edit and mix might be the most important. For me, it was composing. If I cannot compose in a manner that fits me best, the rest of the "jobs" are worthless. Right? All the apps can record, and all of them can be used to mix. But, to be able to compose in certain ways? Priceless for me. So, it comes next to: what type of music? With this type of music, what will me desired manners fo working be? I realized I like to open an app on my desktop or laptop, and get it going quickly...which DP5 excells at. But, once past this question, it came down to "takes." It is the composing stage, so I am going to have variances on ideas. Pro Tools has playlists, which are cool. But, building a comp from takes is difficult for me in PT. Cubase and Logic were much better for this for me. But, I wanted to be able to work with MIDI exactly as I work with Audio, as far as regions are concerned. Logic was close, but Cubase did it. Logic has very cool stock instruments...no doubt! But, I own VI's already, so I had to force myself to ignore that aspect, and get back to the actual workflow thing. Pro Tools also lost out due to the hardware thing; with DP, Logic and C4, I can use the built-in audio in my MacBook Pro! So, it is simply plugging in the dongle, and go. DP5, with no dongle, makes this slightly more attractive...just not enough for me.

BTW- I use BFD, which worked well in both Logic and C4. I have certain other instrument types I wanted to use, and both had them available for me. This has actually led me to decide on something: I want to have VI's that will work in Logic, DP, Pro Tools (via the wrapper, if need be), and Cubase. That way, no mater my choice, I will have them...they are valuable tools for me, so I consider them heavily.

Once I have the takes sitting there, and have my general idea down, it is time to start assembling a working order. Am I going to go intro, verse, chorus, etc? Or will I go intor, chorus, verse, chorus? Or intro, verse, pre-chorus, verse, pre-chorus, chorus? Or something different? Logic's folder system is one built of the idea that you have regions, and you want to archive them; Cubase has the idea that you have a set of Tracks, and you want to archive them out fo the way. Two distinctly different approaches!!! But, Cubase also had the Play Order track...very cool!!! Why? Well, you can build multiple Play Orders, which go into the Play Order list, accessible form that single Play Order track you can have. Think of this as the ONE track in Cubase that is like any track in Pro Tools: it has a playlist! But, this playlist is a quick way to tell Cubase: take all the material exactly between point A and point B, and call that "blah." Between C and D, caled, "walla." Etc. and then assemble thiese sections, without affecting the actual session/project!

I was happier with C4, but it came with a price: the nagging notion that it might not be entirely stable. I have seen the reports, and experienced no issues (touch wood!). But, I have some plug-ins that are not on VST for Intel Mac in a VST 2.4+ version. Some might not ever be available. But, I decided that the app was more important, and have sacrificed, and will find plug-ins that are similar. I would rather do that than find a new way to compose, or accept a second choice in ways to compose.

Now the caveat: Pro Tools is my fav for the rest of the work. And, over the next year or two, I can see Digi making Pro Tools an app that can do more of what I have found in C4. But, I want to write today.

Oh- btw- I also wanted to have some hard copy of my writings. I chose Sibelius G7. Still PPC only, so it runs via Rosetta (ugh). Not bad though, and I can do some very nice scores with guitar tab and such. Cubase is decent for this, but takes work to get it to look "right." IMO, Logic requires this as well, although not quite as much. But, as I work on a song, it is sooooo nice to have an app like Logic and Cubase that I can enter lyrics!!! Yep, both allow lyrics, and I cna then create a tacky vocal melody instrument to allow me to work on vocal lines, and get the lyrics fine tuned to fit them! When all is said and done though, I can export the MIDI from C4/Logic, and then take time in Sibelius G7 to create a nice, printable score, complete with lyrics, that I can place in a notebook. Maybe silly, but this wll give me a HUGE smile.

lots of choices, lots of genres, and we are all unique.

Well I am glad to hear you are doing prog-rock as that is fairly close to "post-rock" (hate that label) which is the style I like to work in.

You really make a strong case for C4. Of course at the end of the day I will be using Cubase Studio 4 and not the full verson. Not sure if any of the features you like will be missing from this version of the app. The stability issue, and Steinberg's lack in interest in fixing these still really do concern me. Having said that CS4 is my cheapest option for getting a DAW at $200.00 with my VST5/32 upgrade licence.

I am not sure if I will be working in the same manner as you though. I usually do complete takes with my guitar and bass playing. I just play though the song. As for the drums, I am not a competent enough finger drummer yet to do that, so the cycle record could turn out to be invaluable. In the past I have worked on drums like this: I play a rough sketch of the drum part. I then open the midi editor and start to edit a section of the performance to make it sound how I want it to sound. In the past I have made much use of laying different "groove" templates over the feel of certain parts of the drum tack to give it the right feel. I then usually make variations of this part to fill out the track.

How I would like to work is get good enough at finger drumming so I can do live takes and then just 'clean them up' perhaps with a little light quantizing. This also depends on the technology being up to speed. I have had a real issue with latency on computer systems in the past, yet so far only a computer plugin can give me anything that sounds like a real live recorded drum track.

So in the end I would like to pull up a track, lay down my virtual drums live. Pick up the guitar, play a guitar part or two, pick up the bass and then be ready to mix. I actually spend a lot of time on arranging, cutting and pasting sections of the song, trying different drum beats against different guitar parts etc to accheive the end result I am after. This is a VERY VERY important point for me. I need to be able to move sections around quickly and easily to try out different options. This is absolutely critical for the way I work. I know what I am going for, but I do not always know what will give me the result I want.

Anyway, thanks again for another informative post. I feel like you that perhaps C4 is my best choice, I am just very concerned about using it on my machine. I am also slightly concerned about older plugins not working with it. What is the deal with that? Have they updated the VST spec and then dropped the old one so older plugs don't work? Will addictive drums work? I know BFD will because you are using that.

[Igotsoul4u]

I think your biggest concern should be how much of a blend between midi and audio capabilties you need. I think Protools, especially 7.3, has the most even balance between midi and audio editing. Programming drums is actually really great in protools. They have a bunch of different quantizations that actually feel pretty good and editing drums couldn't be easier. I especially love the way PT handles velocity editing. Editing midi is great overall. I personally have been using logic for 3 years now but am considering switching to protools just for the audio editing capabilities. Logic sucks so bad for audio tracking and editing. So do all other DAW's imo. Nothing touches protools audio editing. I say go with protools especially after the 7.3 update. Huge issues addressed and fixed as far as creative flow is concerned.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by diskjunkie

As for the way I want to work, I am not 100% sure that has been estabilished. Basically I want to be able to quickly and easily be able lay down a realistic sounding drum track using something like Addictive Drums or BFD and then be able to add my guitar and bass playing and mix it all down with the least amount of hassel and headache.

I think pretty much every DAW does this. That's mostly an AD/BFD thing really.

Originally Posted by diskjunkie

People keep telling me that PT would be fine for MIDI which has made me seriously consider PT. I would just hate to spend the money and then find that a certain MIDI function that I would like to use that is easy in say C4 is tedious in PT.

It will for most people... It really depends on the features you need. Are there any specific features you need? Changing the velocity, quantizing and so on is something every decent DAW can do these days.

Originally Posted by diskjunkie

Too bad about DP eating up a lot of DSP,

This is something Pro Tools does as well... sadly... it's also EXTREMELY picky about what computer you use so be sure you have checked and double checked the compatibility docs at the Digidesign website before buying anything. The argument "but I have a new computer" is simply not enough in Digi land, you better be using the right cpu and what not.

Originally Posted by diskjunkie

I guess its that desire to keep it simple at the expense of loosing some features that leads me to Pro Tools. I get the impression that PT has tried to keep it simple in a sense while being very advanced in its mixing and audio editing features if not quite as advanced in its midi implementation.

To some extent yes... Pro Tools is quick to work in, not least because you work in two windows instead of 10. The first years I almost only worked in one... Pro Tools is also great for editing audio.

I say this to everyone who's looking for a DAW these days. They are all good, pick one, learn it and learn it good. It's all about the workflow, I work fast in Pro Tools... I would LIKE to work faster in Logic but I simply can't mix fast enough in it. I'm getting tired of being stuck with Digi hardware, but at the end of the day it's the music that comes out it that matters, and I'm sure the same music could come out from any other app if I were behind the controls, but it just happens to be that I work fastest and find it easiest to use Pro tools, so hey, why make it harder on myself?

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u

I think your biggest concern should be how much of a blend between midi and audio capabilties you need. I think Protools, especially 7.3, has the most even balance between midi and audio editing. Programming drums is actually really great in protools. They have a bunch of different quantizations that actually feel pretty good and editing drums couldn't be easier. I especially love the way PT handles velocity editing. Editing midi is great overall. I personally have been using logic for 3 years now but am considering switching to protools just for the audio editing capabilities. Logic sucks so bad for audio tracking and editing. So do all other DAW's imo. Nothing touches protools audio editing. I say go with protools especially after the 7.3 update. Huge issues addressed and fixed as far as creative flow is concerned.

Yeah, as the title of this thread is MIDI In Pro Tools, I am very very interested in pro tools and MIDI is the only concern. Obviously some people still find it lacking as evidenced by nikki-k two extensive posts. It does sound like from a drums perspective he is trying to accheive similar results as I want to accheive, however, I am not sure that our approach would be the same. I however can't say for sure. It sounds like he has spent a lot more time on it than I have. It could be after years of recording and editing finger drumming takes I would end up in the same spot as he. I guess the nice thing about Cubase is that its as advanced as you want it to be in the MIDI realm, so if I needed to get my hands dirty with midi editing I know C4 would be up to the task. I can't say I have the same impresson of PT.

Having said that, PT seems like it may overall be closer to the way I would like to work. As stated above, I don't do a lot of editing of takes, I do a lot of editing when arranging. Then once the arrangement is done I like to play takes. I don't usually do so much as combine takes, I just wait to get a good one. That is because I work alone. I can't say so much about the drums at this point. I may never get to the point where I can play a drum part in on a midi controller and get a "take," but who knows.

I am still very very seriously considering PT. There is a part of me that almost does not want to get into all the advanced editing options that are available in something like Cubase. I am a guitarist first and foremost and in a sense I want to be as 'caveman like' as I can be while still getting the results I need. My whole goal is to set things up so I can spend more time writing and playing and less time 'tweaking' while still getting "professional sounding" results.

I guess in a sense I am willing to compromise quite a bit in the sake of simplicity and comfort. I am not planning a system that will give me the best sound, the best tone, etc, and in this regard I probably do not need the best MIDI editing capabilities (although I cannot say I am sure of that for I am a guitarist and I am NOT a drummer. I will be relying heavily on MIDI to help me get convincing good drumming). When I think of it that way Pro Tools LE or MP seem to be a very nice compromise. My goal is to produce good sounding recordings on the level that an independent label might put out.

It seems to me that nikki-k uses the way Cubase organizes its cycle recording to his advantage. I have never really used cycle record all that much, but I have to say that listening to him describe the way he works makes me consider taking a good hard look at it as I could cycle a section and do drum takes over and over till I get one I like. This is quite appealing. As I said, for guitars I would not do this but just play the take in one go.

BTW, everyone mentions what a CPU hog DP is, how is PTLE in this regard?

Getting on here to weigh my options has been one of the best steps I have ever taken in all my gear buying days. There are so many choices these days, its hard to sift through it all. GS makes it easy and fun!

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by nikki-k

But, to review the various takes for the MIDI tracks? It currently is a PITA in my opinion. The takes SHOULD be able to be seen by right-clicking and hovering over the "Alternate:" menu item. Unfortunately, it does not work properly, and you will (most likely) not see all of your takes, and perhaps, none. You will need to dig into the regions list to find them...

Hi Nikki! Good to see you here. Your posts are always of great value. I've seen you in the Logic forums as well I hope I can learn as much about Logic from you as I have about PT.

Just one question why do you think this is a problem (see the quoth)? Highlighting the region in the edit window also highlights the region in the region lists, no? The alternative regions should be there right next to it.

A few days ago I recorded a bunch of vocals with loop recording and created 6-7 new tracks (one for each take), copied the takes to them and previewed them by muting/unmuting the regions. I know, I know, not at all what you asked for, but a decent workaround

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by Stiff

I would LIKE to work faster in Logic but I simply can't mix fast enough in it.

In curious how mixing in Logic is differet from PT? People seem to really like mixing in PT. I HATE mixing, and I am curious if part of my hatred is due to the fact that I have realistically only ever really mixed in Cubase. Is this a more pleasureable experience in PT? If so I'd be curious as to the specific reasons it is easier more enjoyable in PT vs everyone else.

I understand the whole, pick something and learn it in and out logic. Its the pick something part that I am working on. Once I have picked I am sure I will find a way to do whatever it is I need to do. I have limited funds though, and I want to be SMART about my choice as some of these DAWs seem to clearly have advantages in some regards. If I am planning to score the next Stephen Spielberg film I may want to consider DP since it has the most advanced scoring features, if I don't want to mix my music but want it mixed at a pro studio, then perhaps PTLE would be a good choice since most pro studios have a PT rig and my session would transfer seamlessly. I donno, I don't see the harm in investigating these things. Notice in all my posts I have not said I am looking for the best DAW, or which daw will let me record guitars. I know they all will do the basics. What I am looking for is feedback from users so I can make the most informed decision I can make.

The good news is there is a demo version of PTMP. I like the concept of the Ozonic and am thinking of purchasing one. If I do I will download PTMP so I can try it out. I am pretty sure many many of my questions about PT will be answered in a short time this way. Logic has a demo that will only run on older Macs (seems stupid for apple not to support their own latest platform) Cubase 4 has no demo but I basically know what it is like - I just don't know how well it will run on my system, Live has a demo and I have tried it, but so far I have not been able to get into it.

BTW, my DAW choices are limited to the sub $500.00 price range which means Cubase Studio 4 and Logic Express not Logic Pro and C4.

[nikki-k]

Originally Posted by Stiff

Hi Nikki! Good to see you here. Your posts are always of great value. I've seen you in the Logic forums as well I hope I can learn as much about Logic from you as I have about PT.

Just one question why do you think this is a problem (see the quoth)? Highlighting the region in the edit window also highlights the region in the region lists, no? The alternative regions should be there right next to it.

A few days ago I recorded a bunch of vocals with loop recording and created 6-7 new tracks (one for each take), copied the takes to them and previewed them by muting/unmuting the regions. I know, I know, not at all what you asked for, but a decent workaround

@disc, first- she, not he...but, a very natural and common mistake. I am never offended by this, and no need for apologies and stuff like that. It really shouldnt matter, but I just like people to have a better idea of who they are speaking with...makes it a bit more personal. Makes it the tiniest bit more like speaking in person, or on the phone IMO.

STiff- heya! How's it goin? (I am still finding time for that bit you asked about BTW..I have not forgotten!!!)

OK..when doing MIDI in PT. Do a cycle record, and set pre-roll on or off, and then use a pre-count of any size, or not at all. The first cycle pass will include a 1 bar section tacked on the front. No, it doesnt record anything FROM that one bar...it is just there. I would gather it is a bug, but it has been present awhile, and it makes that first take...tada!..."un-see-able" from the "Alternate takes" list you could fiind with a right-click on a selected region. Thus, the first pass is "not seen" if a later take is left selected. The final pass, unless stopped EXACTLY at the very end of the cycle will also prohibit other takes from being seen in that "Alternate" list. Yep, another short-coming that happens with MIDI, but not (always) with Audio.

Then once I have those takes, I cannot even do as I could with Logic or PT HD...LE does not have manual, fixed voicing. So, I have to create multiple MIDI tracks (or Audio!!!), drop my various takes, and then actively mute and unmute. Not bad, and I could even handle the extra step of muting one take, then unmute another, and have to mute that one to independently audition the next in Play mode...IOW, there is no "Object/Voice stealing/priority" as in PT HD or Logic, and as exists in C4 with Lanes-Stacked mode. Just a little more clumsy for me, and for expediency and workflow, I find Logic Pro, PT HD, and C4 to excel with this, and C4 works for me by a small margin from those 3.

OK- why doesn't MIDI work for me in PT? Well, I like to correct/fix/create certain things. As an example, take a cymbal wash, or a snare fill/roll. Say I want to be able to move notes slightly, and edit velocities as I do this. Yes, possible in all of these apps. But, I find C4 to excell for me due to having a seperate MIDI Note editor (Key style), with the ability to have multiple, independent lanes of CC's available below. Logic has cool Velocity represenmtation/manipulation in their Key Edit, but only a single CC "lane" below, called HyperDraw. And, it is an unmodifiable blue color (sorry- this bugs me- lol!!!). Logic Pro does have HyperEdit though, and this is a wicked tool, and I LOVE this. Working with quantized parts? I dont think it can be beat.

And back to the quote Stiff (sorry to have strayed so far...lol...)...yeah, it is easy enough to do just that, especially with good track naming habits. But, I will often build drum tracks in one or more of several different ways. Or, I might be working on some strings, horns, etc for a song. I really like being able to simply "unfold" a single track in C4 and see various takes, all nicely sitting there in Lanes. It is definitely a matter of aesthetics and what feels more comfy! This would be a PRIME example of workflow differences, and why I wish so much that it would be possible for us to try, unbridled, each app, side-by-side. Have the time to spend a day or so completely entrenched in an app, flipping thru a manual and hitting a dedicated forum to discover bits and scraps. I have discovered how incredibly deep Logic Pro is by doing this. I have not sold it, because I think it is a valuable tool, and love certain aspects. I LOVE pro tools HD for tracking and mixing, hands down. For composing, I currently love C4. Render to audio for scratch tracks,a nd begin tracking after an import to PT HD. And with that small bit of free time, open Sibelius G7, simple as it may be comparitively (to Finale or full SIbelius), and crank out transcriptions of my expressions. If I could only have one right now, it would be, despite the shakey ground right now, C4. Fix the Alternate takes thing, give me some way to do a Lanes or Fixed Voice/Objects thing, and then give me a Key Edit window like C4, and PT LE would have me back in a second. But, I would still envy those other apps, especially DP, since they can work with that built-in audio on a MacBook (Pro). To pop in ear buds or a set of headphones while laying in bed and working on a transcription or casually working out some vocal lines? Sorry, that is so incredible in my eyes.

My ultimate app would be all of these combined

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by diskjunkie

In curious how mixing in Logic is differet from PT? .

You can do everything in one window in Protools, for example copying a plug-in from one track to another requires you to open a different window in Logic. Dynamic allocation of voices in PT in logic if you change from a track from a mnono track to a stereo track you loss all you plug-ins.

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by nikki-k

@disc, first- she, not he...but, a very natural and common mistake. I am never offended by this, and no need for apologies and stuff like that. It really shouldnt matter, but I just like people to have a better idea of who they are speaking with...makes it a bit more personal. Makes it the tiniest bit more like speaking in person, or on the phone IMO.

Oops, sorry!

[nikki-k]

Actually, in Logic, you can go into the Environment, and manually connect ports and such.

Also, you set it to assign individual ports/channels when doing multi-track recording. But, yes, it is (or, it CAN be) much more involved. While I prefer the simplicity of selecting inputs for tracks (Audio and MIDI) on the track itself I want to record to (or monitor), once one becomes comfy in Logic, it probably does not seem like that much of a PITA, and the extra complexity one can take advantage of being a decent prize for that patience and effort.

For routing, my fav is PT HD, with DP, Logic and then Cubase, in that order. If Cubase gets rid of some routing inabilities, I would have to reconsider that list...and it is only my opinion

[ElMosca]

I once helped a client set up a template for recording MIDI drum tracks in PT. It was a while ago, so memory is hazy. We tried many alternatives, and ended with something like this:

1. Create a MIDI track per drum part, i.e. one for the snare, one for the kick, one for the hat, one for the crash...you get the picture. Assign the input and the outputs as appropriate.
2. Set the track heights of all these MIDI tracks to "Single Note" selecting the appropriate note for each track (this will depend on your drum software's MIDI implementation).
3. Select all the tracks created in step 1. and group them (this is useful for editing, not necessarily tracking.

Now you can either draw notes with the pencil tool (enable grid mode and vary your grid size as needed), or you can select a range, and record each part by playing a controller. If I recall that experience, we had to:

a. Turn on loop record.
b. Enable only the first track for recording.
c. Enable MIDI merge.

Hit record and play (with a countoff, not pre-roll). Record as many passes as you need. When you're ready to move to another drum, hit Command-down-arrow (or control-down-arrow) to enable the next track for recording. Rinse, repeat. This can be done without stopping.

Or you can just use one track for everything:

1. Enable MIDI merge
2. Select a range
3. Disable loop record, enable loop play (don't ask me why, one of those PT things)
4. Enable and set the appropriate parameters for Input Quantization
5. Hit record and play, and play your controller. Do one drum or two on each pass.

(Despite being impressed enough by PT's MIDI recording, I still arrange my MIDI in Reason and only import it into PT if I need to trigger external modules).

Hope this is useful,
++aldo

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by diskjunkie

In curious how mixing in Logic is differet from PT? People seem to really like mixing in PT. I HATE mixing, and I am curious if part of my hatred is due to the fact that I have realistically only ever really mixed in Cubase. Is this a more pleasureable experience in PT? If so I'd be curious as to the specific reasons it is easier more enjoyable in PT vs everyone else.

I haven't worked in Cubase since SX, previous to that I used the previous Cubase VST and it wouldn't be fair if I gave you advice on it since I wasn't good enough to make that kind of judgement. I do have something against Steinberg and while looking for other solutions (started a couple of months ago up until now) this was the one platform I ruled out without even looking into it fully.

There are certain things that makes your life easy in Pro Tools... for instance showing and hiding tracks in an easy way, in Pro Tools you can do this with memory locations. Memory locations are like presets and they show in a very small floating window, clicking one of them basically "loads" that preset. So for instance, I can make a drum preset showing only the ten channels of drums. They can be used to control all sort of things (like markers, zoom setting, track show/hide and so on).

The way you can handle the mix window. Clicking and dragging a track if you want them placed in a certain order, double clicking the name to change it, color the entire mix window (for instance so that all vocals are blue or all busses are green).

Tab to transient...

Beat detective...

The time stretch integrated into the trim tool...

Only two windows (this is of course a matter of taste)...

Also, Pro Tools is very heavy on key commands. It will take some time to learn them but they WILL make your life easier and it's crucial for me not to scroll through menus all the time (RSI).

Really, you have to see the DAWs in action

Originally Posted by diskjunkie

BTW, my DAW choices are limited to the sub $500.00 price range which means Cubase Studio 4 and Logic Express not Logic Pro and C4.

Does that include soundcard/interface? If so, go with Pro Tools... There's no competition then. If not then it's still a matter of discussion.

I personally think that PTLE is more powerful than Logic Express (now we're talking "powerful", not my workflow). Don't know about the Cubase versions of course.

You mentioned Live earlier, it's a very nice app if you do loop based music. There's a crippled version of it with any Pro Tools LE purchase (don't know about M-Audio deals, they are somewhat of a different animal since the software isn't included).

Also, whatever the decision is, you can't really go that wrong. They are all competent apps and in the end it's your own hands that makes the music. If you go with a PT setup and don't like it it will still not be in vain as you can use the hardware with other apps.

[Stiff]

Oh, and diskjunkie, IF you go with Pro Tools: CHECK THE COMPATIBILITY DOCS! I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again: CHECK THE COMPATIBILITY DOCS! Pro Tools is pickier than a jar full of pickles.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by nikki-k

STiff- heya! How's it goin? (I am still finding time for that bit you asked about BTW..I have not forgotten!!!)

Don't worry about it. You just let me know when you have the time to do it

Then once I have those takes, I cannot even do as I could with Logic or PT HD...LE does not have manual, fixed voicing. So, I have to create multiple MIDI tracks (or Audio!!!), drop my various takes, and then actively mute and unmute. Not bad, and I could even handle the extra step of muting one take, then unmute another, and have to mute that one to independently audition the next in Play mode...IOW, there is no "Object/Voice stealing/priority" as in PT HD or Logic, and as exists in C4 with Lanes-Stacked mode. Just a little more clumsy for me, and for expediency and workflow, I find Logic Pro, PT HD, and C4 to excel with this, and C4 works for me by a small margin from those 3.

Oh yeah, I would like that as well! Give me that and ADC in LE! I work on a HD system every now and then and didn't even know about this feature until a couple of weeks ago.

Logic Pro does have HyperEdit though, and this is a wicked tool, and I LOVE this. Working with quantized parts? I dont think it can be beat.

For sure, no argument there.

Fix the Alternate takes thing, give me some way to do a Lanes or Fixed Voice/Objects thing, and then give me a Key Edit window like C4, and PT LE would have me back in a second. But, I would still envy those other apps, especially DP, since they can work with that built-in audio on a MacBook (Pro). To pop in ear buds or a set of headphones while laying in bed and working on a transcription or casually working out some vocal lines? Sorry, that is so incredible in my eyes.

My ultimate app would be all of these combined

I was also looking at other apps for a month or two up until now. Despite everyone saying how similar DP was to Pro Tools I never really got the hang of it, and it was so... ugly? I guess I'm shallow

I also heard from someone that it would run RTAS. No way unless you use a HD system. Well, I have several thousands of € in my plug-ins, mix ITB and I would like to keep them.

I of course looked at Logic, I liked it. I'm primarily a songwriter and I came up with very much new stuff with it. I was also very interested in the Symphony system. Let's face it, the big downside to PTLE is that you're stuck with the hardware. If I had the money I would go for a HD system for my home studio but it isn't possible at this point. The Symphony looked like the next best thing... but as I said, mixing in Logic was not as easy as in Pro Tools for me.

[steff3]

If you are in the 500US$ range and on Mac I would seriously consider Digital Performer ...... It is a great program, leaves you the choice to edit MIDI in sequence window or in separate window, has a nice drum editor ..... the thing that is a bit cumbersome is that it does not know MIDI regions - but on the other hand MIDI editing feels much better than in Logic ..... Audio editing in DP is great - I prefer it over Logic, Cubase - (it is quite some time I worked with PT, and last time I worked with PT I did not have my ShuttlePro, so it was a real pain). It is much more complete than PTLE or PTmpowered.

best

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by Stiff

There are certain things that makes your life easy in Pro Tools... for instance showing and hiding tracks in an easy way, in Pro Tools you can do this with memory locations. Memory locations are like presets and they show in a very small floating window, clicking one of them basically "loads" that preset. So for instance, I can make a drum preset showing only the ten channels of drums. They can be used to control all sort of things (like markers, zoom setting, track show/hide and so on).

The way you can handle the mix window. Clicking and dragging a track if you want them placed in a certain order, double clicking the name to change it, color the entire mix window (for instance so that all vocals are blue or all busses are green).

Tab to transient...

Beat detective...

The time stretch integrated into the trim tool...

Only two windows (this is of course a matter of taste)...

Also, Pro Tools is very heavy on key commands. It will take some time to learn them but they WILL make your life easier and it's crucial for me not to scroll through menus all the time (RSI).

Really, you have to see the DAWs in action

All that does sound really helpful. I haven't quite ruled out Cubase yet, but I am finding it hard to consider it seriously, although nikki-k has made me reconsider. I have heard some positive feedback from users on here, but I know all I have to do is show up at Cubase.net and I will find a hoard of people screaming at Steinberg to fix bugs in the latest verson of Cubase which they will be very lucky if they ever get fixed before the NEXT version of Cubase is released.

JUST got approved for their messageboard. Must have been at the Messe hanging out with XLN audio.

Originally Posted by Stiff

Does that include soundcard/interface? If so, go with Pro Tools... There's no competition then. If not then it's still a matter of discussion.

I personally think that PTLE is more powerful than Logic Express (now we're talking "powerful", not my workflow). Don't know about the Cubase versions of course.

You mentioned Live earlier, it's a very nice app if you do loop based music. There's a crippled version of it with any Pro Tools LE purchase (don't know about M-Audio deals, they are somewhat of a different animal since the software isn't included).

No that does not include the soundcard, but I have to say PTLE with the mini seems to be quite a sweet deal. I've checked out Live a few times and I have not really been able to get into it yet. I don't make looped based music and I have a feeling this may have something to do with it. I know it's rare on software, but I kind of like things that I can figure out on my own rather quickly. I can't say this has been the case with me and Live yet. I will probably give it another go before I plunk down money on something, just to be sure.

I do like the idea of the m-audio ozonic as a controller/interface. I have this vision of my rig fitting on my coffeetable with my macbook, the ozonic, and blue sky media desk speakers mounted on small speaker stands all on the table. I would love to have a rig that is fully functional yet very portable.

Originally Posted by Stiff

Also, whatever the decision is, you can't really go that wrong. They are all competent apps and in the end it's your own hands that makes the music. If you go with a PT setup and don't like it it will still not be in vain as you can use the hardware with other apps.

That is good to know, and my impression is the same. I am just trying to get something that will be the best fit for me and I feel I have already learned a lot and so hopefully will not be surprised when I finally do buy.

[diskjunkie]

Originally Posted by steff3

If you are in the 500US$ range and on Mac I would seriously consider Digital Performer ...... It is a great program, leaves you the choice to edit MIDI in sequence window or in separate window, has a nice drum editor ..... the thing that is a bit cumbersome is that it does not know MIDI regions - but on the other hand MIDI editing feels much better than in Logic ..... Audio editing in DP is great - I prefer it over Logic, Cubase - (it is quite some time I worked with PT, and last time I worked with PT I did not have my ShuttlePro, so it was a real pain). It is much more complete than PTLE or PTmpowered.

best

I am seriously considering DP, but why specifically do you say it is more complete that PTLE or PTMP? These sorts of things are important in my consideration.

And this may sound like a noob question but what are MIDI regions? I would probably know one if I saw one, but I am not familiar with the term.

[manning1]

junkie...
just an idea.
instead of laboriously entering midi data into midi traks.
check out the popular band in a box (pgmusic.com for demo).
it will do a whole bunch of things for you includeing midi trak generation.
its an intelligent accompaniement program.
while youve just finished your first midi trak in half an hour ,
with biab youll have a song done.
its difficult to explain. so try it at your leisure.
it will even generate lead solo ideas for you.
its garnered many awards.