Sony Oxford (Sonnox) still good? =>now with Paul Frindle replys :D

[ISedlacek]

I purchased the limiter just now and wanted to use it for a project but I have a problem - whatever setting I make and change, with almost no gain reduction, Oxford limiter tends to distort bass in the songs I work on right now. When I use Voxengo Elephant even in much harder settings, it does not happen.
Here are three very short samples. Listen to the deep bass in the left channel. First I thought something resonates in my speaker, then I heard the same on different speakers and headphones too.

Original

Voxengo Elephant

Oxford limiter

... and it goes on throughout the song. I am confused. I tried various settings (auto gain or not, no enhance etc.), the limiting almost does not happen, yet the distortion is there. A bit unuseable at the moment ...

PS: I found later that setting attack faster, makes the distortion less, yet it is still there a bit ... (unlike Elephant)

[Fuel]

Try the attack,,,if you can lower it.....also use the nhancer at minimum levels

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Fuel

Try the attack,,,if you can lower it.....also use the nhancer at minimum levels

Faster attack makes it less audible, but it is still there (even with enhancer at zero). Wanted to consult it with Sonnox, but there seems to be no working contact at their site:

Unable to find web object file 'pub/plugins/support/contact-support.htm'

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I purchased the limiter just now and wanted to use it for a project but I have a problem - whatever setting I make and change, with almost no gain reduction, Oxford limiter tends to distort bass in the songs I work on right now. When I use Voxengo Elephant even in much harder settings, it does not happen.
Here are three very short samples. Listen to the deep bass in the left channel. First I thought something resonates in my speaker, then I heard the same on different speakers and headphones too.

Original

Voxengo Elephant

Oxford limiter

... and it goes on throughout the song. I am confused. I tried various settings (auto gain or not, no enhance etc.), the limiting almost does not happen, yet the distortion is there. A bit unuseable at the moment ...

PS: I found later that setting attack faster, makes the distortion less, yet it is still there a bit ... (unlike Elephant)

There is something wrong here - this should not happen.

I haven't worked there for 18 months, but I did design the original app. Maybe I can still help?

Some questions if you have time:

Does the distortion continue with input and output set at zero, auto gain, enhancer and safe mode set to off - and attack and release set to max time (slowest) ?

If you get up a track and send only the PT Oscillator set at say 100Hz at 0dBFS, does it still distort, even if no meters show an over?

If it still distorts, does reducing input or output levels make it better?

[zak7]

I hear the same characteristics with Elephant...

Acyually Sony Limiter is very Transparent....Even Cleaner than Massy L2000 that is great!

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

There is something wrong here - this should not happen.

I haven't worked there for 18 months, but I did design the original app. Maybe I can still help?

Some questions if you have time:

Does the distortion continue with input and output set at zero, auto gain, enhancer and safe mode set to off - and attack and release set to max time (slowest) ?

If you get up a track and send only the PT Oscillator set at say 100Hz at 0dBFS, does it still distort, even if no meters show an over?

If it still distorts, does reducing input or output levels make it better?

I have listened to the files and note that there is quite a bit of boosted gain (3dB or so) - so these are in fact made with limiting active. From listening to it I can't hear gross error style distortion due to clipping - as I had feared it might be if it were broken.

So this seems a set-up issue? To me it sounds a bit weak and thin - as though it's attacking and releasing too fast? I would try increasing the decay time to prevent gain modulations between cycles of the LF programme. Also a bit of soft knee will help.

If you post a wav of this piece somewhere I could try to demonstrate.

BTW - I can't find a contact field on the Sonnox web site either. You could try mailing support@sonyoxford.com - this was what it used to be and may still be active?

I hope this helps :-)

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

I have listened to the files and note that there is quite a bit of boosted gain (3dB or so) - so these are in fact made with limiting active. From listening to it I can't hear gross error style distortion due to clipping - as I had feared it might be if it were broken.

So this seems a set-up issue? To me it sounds a bit weak and thin - as though it's attacking and releasing too fast? I would try increasing the decay time to prevent gain modulations between cycles of the LF programme. Also a bit of soft knee will help.

If you post a wav of this piece somewhere I could try to demonstrate.

BTW - I can't find a contact field on the Sonnox web site either. You could try mailing support@sonyoxford.com - this was what it used to be and may still be active?

I hope this helps :-)

Paul, thank you for your ideas. I will get to the studio later to try what you suggest. The link to the original non-processed wav file is available in my original post.

[ISedlacek]

Here is an interesting quote from the Sound on Sound review:

The manual suggests that Enhance will be more effective on fuller mixes than on solo instrument tracks and other sparse recordings, and my tests bore this out: there was obvious distortion on a solo bass or acoustic guitar at high Enhance values, but with full band recordings, the function allowed me to add several dBs worth of perceived loudness over and above what could be achieved through limiting alone. However, I found it essential to listen to the results very carefully, and preferably on headphones. When you go slightly too far with the enhancement, the distortion that results is unpleasant but not always obvious; what's more, it usually shows up only in a few small sections of the programme material, and not always where you might expect.

Sounds like something similar I experience. In my case the distortion happens even with no enhance function used

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

The link to the original non-processed wav file is available in my original post.

Sorry, I'm such an idiot - of course it is - duh.. I'm not sure it's long enough though. I'll see.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

Sorry, I'm such an idiot - of course it is - duh.. I'm not sure it's long enough though. I'll see.

I sent you the link to longer one in PM. Thank you very much.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Here is an interesting quote from the Sound on Sound review:

The manual suggests that Enhance will be more effective on fuller mixes than on solo instrument tracks and other sparse recordings, and my tests bore this out: there was obvious distortion on a solo bass or acoustic guitar at high Enhance values, but with full band recordings, the function allowed me to add several dBs worth of perceived loudness over and above what could be achieved through limiting alone. However, I found it essential to listen to the results very carefully, and preferably on headphones. When you go slightly too far with the enhancement, the distortion that results is unpleasant but not always obvious; what's more, it usually shows up only in a few small sections of the programme material, and not always where you might expect.

Sounds like something similar I experience. In my case the distortion happens even with no enhance function used

Yes this may be so - unfortunately you can't get something totally for nothing and there are always side effects :-( It's just a question of whether they are acceptable, fit with the music and/or the gains outweigh the side effects.

BTW, to test if this is your problem, turn off safe mode and set the enhance to zero. Like that there is no action from the enhance processing at all.

Safe mode uses the underlying enhance processing in a neutral setting to catch the peaks - so with it on the enhance processing is always running.

Highly dynamic but predominantly smooth LF and mid range sounds like electric pianos and such can confuse the enhance processing most, as there is not enough peak HF stuff to prime the action. I have thought about this loads during the design and ever since, but cannot come up with a catch all solution to it. Since it is basically a psycho-acoustic effect it's down to what we do or do not hear. Basically all such 'bigger than possible' effects are trying to gain some advantage from the ears by packing away stuff where you are least likely to hear it..

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

BTW, to test if this is your problem, turn off safe mode and set the enhance to zero. Like that there is no action from the enhance processing at all.

.

Yes, the distortion seems to disappear with safe mode and enhance off. But then there are continuous uncontrolled shots above zero ... (if you want the limiter to make its job). In the manual it is written, that safe mode off works only with enhance on 100% (to avoid overclips). Looks like a puzzle now ...

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Yes, the distortion seems to disappear with safe mode and enhance off. But then there are continuous uncontrolled shots above zero ... (if you want the limiter to make its job). In the manual it is written, that safe mode off works only with enhance on 100% (to avoid overclips). Looks like a puzzle now ...

Ok - we are now right back at the beginning where the safe mode was added. This is the history.

The original limiter had the enhance function only on the slider and no safe mode. But the problem is that the industry uses absolute peak sample value as the operating level and everyone is transfixed by reaching it within a hair's breadth. So the safe mode was added to satisfy the conflicting demand that they wanted no overs however they set the controls and time constants.

The problem is that sample value is not signal level and anything you do to a signal (apart from turning it down) causes different sample values which can be greater than the originals. In particular any level dependent process that needs to know the actual signal value cannot strictly track absolute sample values, because sample value and signal level are not the same except at DC (i.e. Zero Hz).

All this would be OK if people were prepared to actually knock a fraction of a dB of the output programme to accommodate attack and release times and consider signal levels - but they are simply not prepared to :-( They expect the limiter to be working at sample value rather than signal value so that it tracks their sample value meters etc. This false perception, misunderstanding and the limitations it imposes are firmly at the root of just about every difficulty people have with digital audio and the bad sound most of us are suffering from the industry (and IMVHO the major reason music sales are declining) Does this make sense so far?

So this poses a dilemma for the designer who is trying to work with what you will actually hear (rather then sample values which you are not), if you want to follow the sample value mania (that people demand and expect) you cannot make something that is optimum from the point of view of sound.. For example any limiter trying to satisfy this demand, even a simple one that responded to sample values only, would need a zero attack time (which sounds bad) - or some annoyingly large amount of look ahead (which also sounds bad) and significant delay (which is very inconvenient for the user).

In the end - and after much thought and online criticism as it was already released, I decided that the best option was to add the safe mode button. It would not be transparent, but it would retain much of the musical advantage of having the timing controls - and it would suppress the peaks whatever you did - and at least it can be turned off for people who are savvy about things.

So - to avoid all this stuff - turn off the safe mode, set enhance at zero, fiddle with input gain, attack an release times (bearing in mind that slower attacks will cause larger peaks at the output) and adjust the output level to avoid overs. Then add the enhance to the desired level somewhere before distortion gets too great.

I hope this is helpful :-)

BTW, very surprisingly, most of the mods and added functions to this plug (such as noise shaping dither and later the safe mode) were actually added because of insistences from the mastering fraternity. It became clear that they were indeed going to attempt to master with it - and - they were inflexible about the peak sample value issue, either because of commercial reasons, or simply not understanding it. It seems that these people are not always using their expensive boxes to get the required sound :-)

[macleodgrant]

i love the sony limiter and haven't experieced the issue you're seeing. semi related though, i was using iron oxide, tape emulation plugin and with a vocal going through it i got this low frequency modulation that drove me up the wall. tried high passing it first but it still came through. there was nothing chris could do about it.

basically it points to the fact that some source material can manifest strange issues with processors that exhibit no issues with the majority if not all other source material. i haven't experienced this many times at all

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

i love the sony limiter and haven't experieced the issue you're seeing. semi related though, i was using iron oxide, tape emulation plugin and with a vocal going through it i got this low frequency modulation that drove me up the wall. tried high passing it first but it still came through. there was nothing chris could do about it.

basically it points to the fact that some source material can manifest strange issues with processors that exhibit no issues with the majority if not all other source material. i haven't experienced this many times at all

You are right with that observation. And whats interesting is that this was understood and expected with analogue designs in the past, but somehow we are intolerant of it in the new digital paradigm? And in this respect I have become like other users - I somehow want the stuff i am working on to be universal and get disappointed when I find my designs can't be totally and I have to constantly remind myself that these thing are only artistic tools.
I never had such grand expectations of universality when I was designing analogue stuff in the 1980's. It's odd how the world has changed..

[Neale Eckstein]

Paul,

I've been using the limiter for some time and have questions about the dither function. I usually print final limited mixes in Pro Tools at 24 bit 88.2 with the dither off and then use Peak to convert the files first to 44.1 using the highest quality setting and then save the result to a 16 bit file applying Powr dither. My understanding is that it's best to apply the dither when actually reducing the bit depth. Does this make sense or am I missing some great features of this limiter by not applying dither during the printing.

I'm not bouncing the files with this plug-in, but actually printing in real time. I put the limiter on an aux track and typically will print a limited and unlimited version. This Pro Tools setup is separate from my playback source so I am not locked to the sample rate of my source material. It also offers a lot of advantages in terms of A/Bing.

I could simply print the final mixes at 16 bit 44.1 but I've read that most of these plug-ins will sound better working on 24 bit material. I'd love to hear your take on it.

Thanks,

Neale Eckstein
www.foxrun.org

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

BTW, very surprisingly, most of the mods and added functions to this plug (such as noise shaping dither and later the safe mode) were actually added because of insistences from the mastering fraternity. It became clear that they were indeed going to attempt to master with it - and - they were inflexible about the peak sample value issue, either because of commercial reasons, or simply not understanding it. It seems that these people are not always using their expensive boxes to get the required sound :-)

I actually find the limiter a very useful tool in mastering, and unlike most other limiters - a very flexible tool.

I did not expect to spend almost a full month of daily use before fully mastering (no pun intended) all the practical ramifications of the individual parameters. It's a limiter for God's sake!

Recently used it on a 2 x platinum release, whatever that's worth.

The Inflator, not something universally applicable in mastering (or mixing) but sometimes it can be just what the doctor ordered. Love it too.

To me it sounds like a combination of what can be achieved by parallel compression and equalizing? Paul, can you elaborate a bit on what goes on inside the Inflator?

[csl]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

So - to avoid all this stuff - turn off the safe mode, set enhance at zero, fiddle with input gain, attack an release times (bearing in mind that slower attacks will cause larger peaks at the output) and adjust the output level to avoid overs. Then add the enhance to the desired level somewhere before distortion gets too great.

Ah. This is useful, thanks. I've never been happy with my results with safe mode/enhance engaged; there always seemed to be too much distortion for my tastes.

But with the lowest attack and release settings I can still leave the output at about -0.3dB and not have any peaks hit 0dB (though some come close), and have a clean, transparent and slightly louder sound (unlike with safe mode/enhance engaged). Also, as this limiter still takes the traditional attack/release approach to limiting, you don't have to kill or distort the transients, unlike your average lookahead brickwall limiter. Though as this doesn't have automatic release control it will let you know when you're pushing it too far and affecting the bass.

I bought this to complement my UAD-1's Precision Limiter, as although it does a fine job most of the time, like many lookaheads it can round-off the transients a little too much.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Neale Eckstein

Paul,

I've been using the limiter for some time and have questions about the dither function. I usually print final limited mixes in Pro Tools at 24 bit 88.2 with the dither off and then use Peak to convert the files first to 44.1 using the highest quality setting and then save the result to a 16 bit file applying Powr dither. My understanding is that it's best to apply the dither when actually reducing the bit depth. Does this make sense or am I missing some great features of this limiter by not applying dither during the printing.

Well in theory every new signal should be dithered (i.e. anything that has been processed or changed in any way what so ever). So it's best to leave the dither set to the following on stream bit width - in this case it's 24bits?

I'm not bouncing the files with this plug-in, but actually printing in real time. I put the limiter on an aux track and typically will print a limited and unlimited version. This Pro Tools setup is separate from my playback source so I am not locked to the sample rate of my source material. It also offers a lot of advantages in terms of A/Bing.

I could simply print the final mixes at 16 bit 44.1 but I've read that most of these plug-ins will sound better working on 24 bit material. I'd love to hear your take on it.

Well this all depends of the intended destination bit width. If for instance you are able to run in at 24bits for reprocessing it's better to leave it at 24 bits and do the reduction to 16bits at the final output (i.e. using the dither on the final limiter etc.). There is some benefit in hitting the plug's input with the highest bit width available. In other words its best to keep the greatest bit width everywhere in the signal path - until the very final output.

I hope I have understood the question correctly :-)

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

I actually find the limiter a very useful tool in mastering, and unlike most other limiters - a very flexible tool.

I did not expect to spend almost a full month of daily use before fully mastering (no pun intended) all the practical ramifications of the individual parameters. It's a limiter for God's sake!

LOL - but you are right, it is a bit more complex than your average limiter and it's certainly much more complex inside. As a designer you are always struggling with a dilemma between getting things to do all they are capable of, making stuff as artistically useful as possible - and trying not to make it all too confusing, so that non one ever discovers what they can do. Manuals can help immeasurably, but (if people are anything like me) the manual only gets read as a last resort.

What is worse is that like many plug-ins I have made, the limiter actually grew several new functions at the request of beta tester feedback - and then grew the safe mode after it was on sale because of user demands - and yet there are still functions that have been asked for that remain absent from it. The whole design thing is always a compromise and I have been criticised before for making things too capable and therefore overly complex. For instance many people think that you should suppress any function that can result in horrible noises if mis-used. But I take the view that the users are much more canny than that and can decide what to do with it perfectly well themselves - and in any case many of the most loved apps in the history of recording have been celebrated for what the original designers would have termed as 'annoying side effects' they would have rather avoided if they could :-)

Recently used it on a 2 x platinum release, whatever that's worth.

Fantastic!! - and means a very great deal to me, this is what makes all the effort worth doing - this is why I try so hard :-)

The Inflator, not something universally applicable in mastering (or mixing) but sometimes it can be just what the doctor ordered. Love it too.

To me it sounds like a combination of what can be achieved by parallel compression and equalizing? Paul, can you elaborate a bit on what goes on inside the Inflator?

The inflator is essentially a distortion generator - and it contains no compression at all. It produces harmonic distortion that (is hopefully) quite benign, of the sort that gives us the cues for loudness and richness - a bit like old tube amps used to do. It can be very useful in many cases, but has to be used diligently - particularly if there is any chance of further 'enhancers' later on in the signal and playback chain.

BTW - IMVHO various kinds of sympathetic distortions still remain the most lacking things in the digital audio domain from an artistic point of view. I miss them terribly from the old days of analogue when I used them to full effect as an engineer. I am getting involved in this area again now :-)

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by csl

Ah. This is useful, thanks. I've never been happy with my results with safe mode/enhance engaged; there always seemed to be too much distortion for my tastes.

But with the lowest attack and release settings I can still leave the output at about -0.3dB and not have any peaks hit 0dB (though some come close), and have a clean, transparent and slightly louder sound (unlike with safe mode/enhance engaged). Also, as this limiter still takes the traditional attack/release approach to limiting, you don't have to kill or distort the transients, unlike your average lookahead brickwall limiter. Though as this doesn't have automatic release control it will let you know when you're pushing it too far and affecting the bass.

I bought this to complement my UAD-1's Precision Limiter, as although it does a fine job most of the time, like many lookaheads it can round-off the transients a little too much.

Just to say that the 'auto gain' function is in fact equivalent to a kind of auto-release control in that it builds up a longer term average value of the programme level and forces the main release to operate down to this, rather than absolute instantaneous levels.

There is also some deliberate interaction between the main release control and the level above average it aims at in auto gain - to avoid pumping when fast releases are used etc..

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by csl

Ah. This is useful, thanks. I've never been happy with my results with safe mode/enhance engaged; there always seemed to be too much distortion for my tastes.

Sorry _ I am answering these out of order due to running out of time..

The distortion produced by the enhance is present only during transients in programme and it depends on all sorts of things - even L/R spread - unlike the inflator, the enhance is actually a form of compressor with complex dependencies. The idea is that this transient behaviour should be masked by the programme itself. This works well for percussive parts and complex mixes with lots going on, but unfortunately might be heard in softer less harmonic stuff like electric pianos and such where the level changes wildly but there are fewer HF components to the sound. I tried very hard to find a fix for this within the design time frame, but ultimately couldn't without destroying the value of the effect on stuff that suits it. Therfore if this stuff get intrusive the only thing to do it release safe mode and add the enhance manually with care.
This is definitely something I would like to re-visit in future - as I feel there must be a way - the effect is definitely worth keeping most of the time :-)

[csl]

Cool - thanks for the clarification, Paul. I forgot about the auto-gain parameter, as I tend to leave it on all the time anyway.

Yeah, I tend to notice the safe/enhance functions most on clean synthetic sounds like synth 808 kick drums and clean bass synths the most. I'd imagine it's masked more effectively by a rock palette than electronic, but I'm sure it'll come in handy at some point too, for adding a bit of hair to synths etc. Nice to have the option anyway.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by csl

Cool - thanks for the clarification, Paul. I forgot about the auto-gain parameter, as I tend to leave it on all the time anyway.

Yeah, I tend to notice the safe/enhance functions most on clean synthetic sounds like synth 808 kick drums and clean bass synths the most. I'd imagine it's masked more effectively by a rock palette than electronic, but I'm sure it'll come in handy at some point too, for adding a bit of hair to synths etc. Nice to have the option anyway.

Yes - these are the things that stress it most from a sonic point of view in it's current form (assuming it has not been modified since I went). For the sake of one more control this could have been controlled by the user to suit different programme types - or could have been switched to a simple peak limiter stage to fix the red light only. But perhaps there are enough controls on there already? I could certainly make a better one now - but isn't that always the case - the plight of all designers, nothing can be perfect and we never stop learning stuff - or at least hopefully we don't....

[parissound]

I downloaded the demos today and remixed a tune and all I can say is WOW.
Awesome plugins, can't wait to purchase them.
I only used the sony plugins on the mix and it was just awesome.

Peace

[lordnielson]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

BTW - IMVHO various kinds of sympathetic distortions still remain the most lacking things in the digital audio domain from an artistic point of view. I miss them terribly from the old days of analogue when I used them to full effect as an engineer. I am getting involved in this area again now :-)

Go on Paul... Tell us what you're up to


Sincerely enjoying your plugins. My audio no longer gets the hazy vst punishment.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

The inflator is essentially a distortion generator - and it contains no compression at all. It produces harmonic distortion that (is hopefully) quite benign, of the sort that gives us the cues for loudness and richness - a bit like old tube amps used to do

That would explain why I was thinking of parallel compression as it tends to bring out details, fattening the sound.

BTW I like reading the Sonnox manuals, very detailed stuff that (nearly) boggles the mind.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by csl

Cool - thanks for the clarification, Paul. I forgot about the auto-gain parameter, as I tend to leave it on all the time anyway.

I find disabling it can be better in some cases, but then you should re-adjust attack/release.

It's quite a different sound and you can't easily switch on/off with the same parameters.

I'm definitely missing an A/B function.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

That would explain why I was thinking of parallel compression as it tends to bring out details, fattening the sound.

Yes 'fattening' is a good word for what it does.

BTW I like reading the Sonnox manuals, very detailed stuff that (nearly) boggles the mind.

Ah - some of them took me ages to write - but IMO it's important to explain as much as possible of the background for people that want to read it. However they should never be a replacement for making a useable application that is as self explanatory as possible in its own right.

The biggest problem I have had is in preventing people from assuming that a plug is something other than it actually is. The Inflator was the worst one and the manual was re-written twice to try to dissuade people from assuming it was a programme limiter. And you can tell that I failed, because to this day people are still comparing it to the limiter - with which it has virtually nothing in common :-(

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by lordnielson

Go on Paul... Tell us what you're up to


Sincerely enjoying your plugins. My audio no longer gets the hazy vst punishment.

All I can say is that I am very busy forging ahead with things that for one reason or another I have not had the facility to do before. For me this is very exciting, but also more than a little risky because I'm earning nothing until we've got something to sell. As our savings fritter away, my wife is certainly hoping that I don't end up driving taxis to support the family - LOL :-)