DAW for composing... (long post) ==> with very long answers (:D)

[nikki-k]

Hi!
I am a long time Pro Tools user, PT HD primarily. However...I have finally realized that I am becoming more and more frustrated when I try to use it for composing (ala the sig, "Looking for a cure.." ). For quick and simple stuff, it is great for me. For tempo and meter changes, PT7 and up is stellar IMO. But, it also lacks quite a bit that someone like me would love to have for composing...so, I am hoping that I can get some ideas/experiences. Please try to avoid trashing apps...I would rather hear what "this app can do this, and this, but I havent had much luck with it for this" rather than "well, this app does this well, MUCH better than this app coudl dream of, and while I dont think my app does this the best, it is so much better than this app, which sux ass anyway..."

Here is what I would love to have in a DAW (audio/MIDI sequencer?), but realize a single app having it all is going to be a miracle..and hold on, cause it is a nice long laundry list...

Must be on Mac OS X for Intel. Vista looks promising someday, but I am looking for something to buy (try?) this week. Mmm...let's say that finding this and using it is some recommended therapy for my diminishing social abilities...

MIDI Features..a biggie, but not as big as you might think...
MIDI loop recording, "takes style." This is HUGE. While writing, I love to loop a section, hit record, and simply try new ideas each pass. (not merging material, but anew take or region each pass). And if I want to do this for 5 minutes, and have 30-40 takes, so be it. I probably would simply loop it through several times at most before I found myself hitting stop to review a take I really liked. Which leads into the next one...

Once I loop record into takes, I want to be able to check them out easily. I love the idea of being able to simply right-click and choose...but I know of no app in which this exists (No, Pro Tools does NOT do this properly- it is incredibly broken...but it is where the idea came from ). My absolute fav idea for this would be a Cubase "Lanes" type of thing, with each pass/take being "recorded to" it's own lane as regions (parts, whatever they are called in whatever app), so I can simply mute and unmute to audition. I know there are apps that do this with audio, more or less. I think you get the idea? I will want to be able to merge into existing material of course (loop, kik n snare first pass, come back and do hats n cymbals later if I want..etc)

Scoring. With support for guitar/bass tab (would be nice to specify number of strings, up to 7) + notation (simultaneously, if possible), lyrics, printing options. (I think Logic comes closest here?) I do not need the full feature set of Finale, or Sibelius. If I do, I can simply export using one of several methods, and continue working from there.

With scoring capabilities, something I would LOVE to have is audio-to-MIDI capabilities. When inspiration hits, it would be nice to be able to have audio I am recording (guitar and bass, typically) transcribed to MIDI. I suck at this, and sitting back after every fit of inspiration to try and transcribe what I just put down can be rough, and I forget 9 times out of ten. Even if I would have to make a single note line instead of chords, it would be worth it to me. Plus, to have it do audio to MIDI for vocal work...priceless...

Bonus: Export a single selected MIDI region as a .mid file, or select several regions and export as a.mid file, type 0 or 1. I do not want to have to save the entire MIDI performance of the entire song, or have to jump through sets of hoops (as I do currently with PT). Once again, I think Logic is capable of this?

I use BFD, Ivory, Garritan Personal Orchestra, the Arturia stuff, some NI stuff, and have a decent sampler library (split between Giga and K2, but some is also EXS24). I also use a Nord Electro 2 (brilliant piece), K2500XS, and a Korg PadKontrol. I can use a Digi MIDI I/O, or a Steinberg MIDex8. I need to be able to use all that stuff...

For hardware, I am using an HD2 Accel system right now. I am anticipating a change, but may simply keep PT HD for tracking once songs are ready to record. Minimal editing after tracking (if I or my band cannot play it, we better learn, or just not play it), and prolly just mix on PT as well...UNLESS! What I find for composing has a nice track record (pun definitely intended!) for tracking and mixing abilities. Heck, I would prolly toss it for a nice Nyquist RADAR if I could afford it...that is how simple my tracking-editing-mixing needs are. Ya know, old school? Erm...ok, new old school? lol...

Folder tracks. They look like a composer's dream.

Freeze, or a "render instrument track to audio" type thing. Not a must ny any means, but this would be so cool to have!

Editing tools: oh, yes please! An excellent set of tools and capabilities are a must here. PT does pretty well IMO, but for the composer, they fall slightly short. I like to drop regions on top of one another, and nudge them around...without the action deleting the damn region material below it! (PT does that, and as a composer, it is hell x 1000) Compress/Expand a region, ala the TCE tool in PT, fitting material (audio or MIDI); like, tempo is 120, I decide to go to 124, and instead of rerecording all the guitar and bass, I simply stretch it (I do alot of cut n paste of quick recording bits to build songs; copy versse, paste into other verses, etc, and then go back later and create variations). Select an area, and then be able to quickly crop, split, delete, etc using the selection. Ya know, most of what can be done in Pro Tools. I believe DP5 is strong in this area? How about Logic?

Nudging is a must; "Snap to" features as well. I love nudging parts by beat divisions, and sometimes by samples. Being able to nudge independent of the main ruler type and grid setting (PT can do this, amazingly well too). Which flows into..

Rulers. I love having the ability to see a Bars|Beats ruler, minutes|seconds, Tempo, and meter changes. PT aded in the Key Changes ruler as well, which is very cool. Plus, being able to play with the tempo while being directly above the material it is affecting is quite nice. I would sacrifice here a bit to gain other features I am seeking though...

Markers. A must. 'nuff said.

MIDI Editor Window. A serious lacking ingredient in PT. To open a track's material in a window with a CC lane below the notes, a nice piano on the left... Bonuses: Multiple CC lanes below the notes. Ability to select multiple tracks in a single MIDI Editor window, with some manner of discerning between each track (perhaps the inherent track color?). Being able to add a track (or two...or three..) to an existing MIDI Editor window's content- huge bonus points! Next, and I never figured I would need this one, but if it is there, what the heck..I am open to see what the fuss is about...in Cubase, you can make custom drum maps for the Editor? So, instead of piano keys, the names you set each key for appear instead? Kinda cool I guess.

Sysex. I would love to be able to dump patches to the app, and have it sit there as data...not as part of the sequence, but rather like...hmmm...how to explain...I dump the sysex, and the app says, "Cool! Let me put that in this little locker for you, with a nice label on it" Then, when I open the song, I can check the "locker room" and see if I need to send any of the lockers' contents to any synths. Make sense? Only way I have seen sysex is by recording it into the "sequence" itself. Previously, I simply used a MIDI Editor/Librarian. I dont have one, and I dont want to play a session/project back later and discover the patches are gone...I would love to have everything saved right there in the session/project. Make sense? Another bonus type feature, but would be cool...

Playlist type feature. I guess I could simply copy a track, disable the original, and then work on the copy; repeat as needed, and enable/disable as desired for a pseudo-playlist function. I am just used to PT, and love playlists. Maybe it is simply adapting to a new way of working?

Region anchors, user assignable. Goes with the "Snap to" features, and nudging abilities.

User assingable key command sets!!! I think I will pee myself from the sheer joy when I have this ability the first day. Macros would be a big, huge bonus...but I imagne at worst, I could incorporate Quickeys into my workflow?

Routing. Oh my. Being able to route from one spot to another via busses; assign inputs and outputs; send from one track to any other I choose; true sidechaining; rename I/O busses and in's and out's; create stupid things like infinite feedback loops if I choose to; send to a track, and then be able to use a send on that track to send somewhere else if I choose (like, send from a guitar track to an aux type track with a delay on it, and the use a send on the track with the delay to a track with a reverb if I choose. This is flexability for mixing primarily, I know. But, I also use this while composing to establish "special effects" type things sometimes. The example I gave is a perfect one, where I might choose to feed the delay with 2-3 tracks of guitars, and then choose to have the delay track use a send to a track with reverb. Stacking the effects on the one track is not the same...

Groups. If you are not familiar with Pro Tool's grouping feaatures, then skip this one. It would take a post FARRRR longer than this huge post to explain what it is I like about the feature set, and how I use them. Getting close the the feature set in PT would be cool, but not a "make or break" thing. Eclipsing it would be impressive, but only if the rest of what I wrote is there already.

Automation is at least close to acceptable in most apps these days. Most do a decent enough job to make it unnecessary to bitch and moan about here. But, I do love PT HD's automation feature set (not talkin LE here!). From what I recall, Nuendo has some sweet stuff automation-wise, no?

So that is all I can think of right now. Long enough post or what?
Just keep in mind- I am writing (primarily, but not solely) progressive rock music. Some will end up being what it is, with live guitars, bass, keys and vocals, with sequenced drums. Other stuff will end up getting done in a good studio. I am figuring the top two suggestions will be DP5 and Logic Pro 7.2, with Cubase getting a nice honorable mention. I am scared of where Logic is..erm...might be...going. DP5 has more windows than the Sears tower in Chicago. No matter where I end up, I know I am looking at nice learning curve, and a nice bit of adjustment (PARIS and PT for almost 10 years now). And I used most of these aps wayyyy back...so the feature sets, and my needs, have changed considerably.

Also- if there might be somewhere better to place this plea for help- another forum maybe? Please! Let me know! I am thinking of copying an dpasting over at Northern Sounds, even though that is primarily an orchestral crowd...but, the Garritan section might just be friendly enough.. Anywhere else?

Thx in advance!!!

[manning1]

nikki....
i'll try to answer one point at a time....its difficult !!
the stuff i know.
but these are on pc unfortunately. ...with some mac.
1..scoring. powertracks that i use has guitar n bass fretboard displays for midi. also has a neat feature for cleaning up guitar
midi traks.
i dont know many products that have this feature....(also mandolin if i remember...!)
plus lots of notation n printing options.
as to audio to midi ive never seen a perfect solution.
i believe its technically impossible to get perfect.
powertracks will do audio to midi on say a kik drum but still some cleaning up is needed. audio to midi is best done on ONE TRAK TYPE NOT A MIX.
powertracks will export as type 0 or 1.
powertraks also has loads of other midi features plus a tc helicon feature that will let u use a midi track to tune vocals...and also do things like create
vocals from one vocal.
2. no folder tracks in powertracks...reaper has folder traks and lots of ways of dealing with
takes....n audio traks. reapers power is all its audio tracking facilities...totally brilliant.
powertracks will let u change the bpm without haveing to
muck around with the individual midi . loads of other stuff for midi implemented over years of thousands of users midi requests.
powertraks great strength is its vast range of midi features.
if u chek the pg forums many PT users have used it over the years
cos of its midi features i understand.
its my understandeing u can run powertracks on a mac with xp loaded ??
BUT...i would check carefully with pgmusic.com support on this as i havent done it. (i run on pc amd dual core 64 now.)
you can nudge etc in reapr....reaper has markers/regions etc.
just tons of audio features. REAPERS GREAT BRILLIANT STRENGTH IS AUDIO TRACKING. midi is coming along nicely tho.
all sorts of drum midi features n sysex features in powertracks.
(chek out the bars screen/event editor/piano roll views etc etc.)
reaper has user assignable key shortcuts.
3. reaper has the most extensive routing ive ever seen.
lot of neat audio automation features in reaper.
(also tons of brilliant audio fx..chek out the new reaeq and the stillwell and JS plug ins !!!!)

you might want to chek out pgmusic.com band in a box. also nikki.
....and there IS a mac version....but the pc version is further ahead...

sort of a different paradigm and v usefull for songwriters for flushing out song ideas.
it might save you lots of time tho in midi tracking.... basically its midi oriented..
you type in the chords to a song n choose a style (or your own style...)
then it comes back with a different "back up band" each time you ask it to.
what a lot of people do is get down the basics in biab..then import
the resulting midi traks into their favorite sequencer for adding their live audio traks. for some folks they find it can save a lot of time.
but as to whether suitable for you....mebe try it.
the reason i mention it...is...while other folks spend hours trakkiing in midi via a midi keyboard...you can flesh out a song in 20 minutes if u know what your doing.
i doubt it will meet all of your needs...but it might be worth looking at.
one interesting aspect is it will generate midi melody n solo ideas for you.
which most sequencers wont do. it also comes with a new feature called REAL DRUMS...studio musicians playing real audio drum traks.
overall nikki i'm not sure youll find one product that meets every need you have.
by the way a reaper mac version is now available in its early stages.
(cockos.com for further details...)
all the best n just trying to help.
n sorry i dont have time to cover everything.

[joris de man]

If it is Os X, then I'd say possibly Cubase. Or DP, but since I nothing about that program, I'll leave that to someone else to pimp.
Cubase won't tick all your boxes, but from your list I'd say quite a lot of them.

-Loop recording with stacking; yup, Cubase does that well. Don't know if there is a limit, but you can repeat recording til your hearts desire and on playback mute different takes to listen to different versions. Imho, works very well.

-Scoring; couldn't tell you exactly, though I know V4 has improved scoring functions and I seem to recall guitar tabs as well. I'm on Nuendo so can't check that specifically.

-Audio to Midi: not built in, but there are plugins that do this.

-Export tracks to midifile; yes, works as you describe.

-VST instrument support in Cubase is second to none. You can have multiple midi tracks easily controlling one vst instrument, so using something like Kontakt 2 with multiple midi channels is a breeze.
It also supports track freezing with optional unloading of the instrument if you need that.
Also there is a function for quickly exporting a vsti to an audiofile and have it automatically reinserted at the right point on a new audiochannel.

-Folder tracks I use everday. They are very flexible in Cubase/Nuendo. You can nest audio and midi tracks in them, open and close them, have folder in folders and you can cut/copy paste foldertracks as you see fit.
I usually have 4 folders:
-one for midi tracks
-one for audio tracks
-one for external tracks (external midi instruments)
-one folder track that encapsulates the other 3; this way I can easily move everything (including automation data) around.
I can then also easily solo those foldertracks if I need to record anything; soloing a foldertrack solo's all the tracks within that folder.

-Editing; I would say apart from Tab to Transient, Nuendo/Cubase's editing is as strong as PT. You have all the snapping features that PT has, as well as to different quantize values.

Nudging is as you describe, and you can select in preferences whether regions overlap or delete what's under them (like PT). Snapping is easily turned on and off either by keycommand or clickable icon on the main toolbar.
You can stretch audioregions with timestretching if you want, like you describe.
Cubase can also lock regions to tempo, and will pitch shift and timestretch in realtime (optional).

Another great feature that I use a lot is to shift a region's audio while the region itself stays locked into place. So say that my region is the correct length, but the audio inside it needs to be shifted, I can do this by pressing ctrl+alt.
Last but not least, you can adjust fades and volume on a per region basis, including crossfades in realtime. It doesn't need to be calculated to disk, like PT does. Also, you can draw in volume automation on a region that is seperate from the regular automation, and which shifts with the region itself.

-Multiple rulers: yes, and you can have them where you want; they don't all have to be at the top, they exsist as a seperate track.
Snapping to either bars or time works by switching the main timeline to bars or time. Perhaps not as elegent as PT, but since you can have multiple timelines, not a biggie.

-Markers; yes, and they can be locked to time or bars/beats. You can also define multiple cycle regions, and obviously they can be named. What's also cool is that I can nudge them and copy paste them like regular events do.

-Sysex locker; no, not as you describe it. Good idea though! You can however dump them into midi parts, and export those parts to a seperate directory, and them import them in whatever session you need. That would be quite similar to what you want?

-Midi editor; exactly as you describe, with multiple lane editing and extensive quantising functions. Combined with the nudge functions I'd say one of the best all around.

-Routing; yes and no. Nuendo/Cubase does have a few odd routing restrictions, the main one being that it can't route back to an earlier track in the case of group tracks (normal people call them Auxes:P). So group track 2 can route to 3, but not to 1. Don't ask me why, it is indeed a weird one.
This can be overcome by using a plugin called senderella, which can route from anywhere to anywhere.
All the other things you mention are perfectly feasible, and C does it with full latency compensation throughout the entire signal path, including external devices.
You can easily rename your IO's, and even setup multiple preset for them, which can be recalled instantly. So say that input1-2 on mondays are a stereo input, but on tuesday's 2 mono mic ones, you can set that up quite easily; same goes for outputs, auxes, etc.

C and N also feature a control room section where you can have multiple outputs of the same mix with different levels, dimming, sending of click tracks and what have you.

Sidechaining is supported in C4, but only with its own plugins. Again, one of few features that seems to be underdeveloped.

-Playlist; not as in PT, but you could just as easily copy the track into a muted folder track and keep it on the side, as you have unlimited audio/miditracks anyway. But yes, a feature that would be nice to have.
However, something you might be interested in if you work in a Pop idiom is the Play Order track. With this you have a track that dictates the order your song plays in. You can edit it, set up repeats, and divide your song up into bits which you can then resequence non destructively.
Not quite the same thing, but perhaps at least somewhat of an alternative?

-Grouping; C and N support simple grouping of tracks, but nothing like PT. A feature that is sorely missing but is apparently somethign that is being addressed in the next Nuendo version.
But yes, much needed, important, and sorry to say lacking in the current versions.

-Nuendo and Cubase are the same in the automation department. It works well, but I'd say still not as well as PT. Editing of automation is very good, with all the snapping andnudging also applying to automation data.
However, with audio it has to be said that due to the way regions work (with having their own volume handle) I tend to automate a whole lot less than I did with PT.
For example, on a recent voice edit I didn't need to use any automation at all, as all the volume scaling I could do with region edits.
One caveat; Read automation is global per track, meaning that if read is on, it will be on for all things automated on that track.
However you can mute the automation per controller on that track (read volume but mute the pan automation).

Logic does quite a few of these things as well, though I'd say areas where it is not so good in are folders, vsti with multiple midichannels, audio editing (regarding snapping esp.) , multiple take recording and multiple rulers.
However, it has great instruments, great plugins and personally I thought the automation was very good too.

Cons for Cubase would be that it is not a mac native app, and some of the other missing features I mentioned.
However, I'd say it is easier to configure then Logic when setting it up, and supports a large number of the features you're looking for.

Best,

Joris

[George Necola]

no I WILL NOT READ IT

[doubledecker]

I think it was Butthead who said:
"If i wanted to read, i'd go to school"

[George Necola]

Originally Posted by doubledecker

I think it was Butthead who said:
"If i wanted to read, i'd go to school"

don't tell anyone

back to topic guys.

cheers

[AnAverageJoe]

Originally Posted by George Necola

no I WILL NOT READ IT

ME TOO.... Locgic

[nikki-k]

Thx for the replies...and LOL to George and the rest...lmao...

OK, it was a tall order. But, I have it narrowed down to Logic and Cubase now. Being on the Mac Pro has me leaning a little toward Logic. But the long reply has me seriously looking again at Cubase, which I had almost discounted originally.

Logic and Cubase each have several features I like that the other does not have. Performance is a concern. Being on Mac...well... And Logic's appeal of having all those instruments is cool, but I own a bunch already, including hardware, so it does not sway me in the least.

If anyone wants to throw out the pros and cons, keeping strongly in mind I willl be on OS X on a Mac Pro...please! I have no way to try them side-by-side (Logic Express Trial is far too crippled to get a fair go out of it). I can only afford one. I would hate to make a costly mistake...again...

[crufty]

I went through this recently. I picked up DP, because I didn't feel like shelling out yet another g for a daw. DP has a nice crossgrade price, and I don't need logics plugins (though from what i can tell the are nice).

Very easy to use, very little in the way of learning curve. Very MIDI oriented. Logic is all in one, if you need the plugins then that's the answer!

[manning1]

nikki....
the mods can delete this post if they want but ive been on GS long enough
that i feel i'm due this post. and i feel VERY STRONGLY technically bout what i'm gonna say.

nikki ...on the one hand you say you want to make the right move strategically this time, then say... oh but everythings gotta be on mac.
which limits you right there. DONT GET ME WRONG. the new macs are nice ,
but your limiting yourself. and lets not start another nth time mac/pc flame war.
in my opinion smart studios today shouldnt think of mac vs pc but mebe useing
both. cos nikki your shutting yourself out from a huge amount of capabilities.
unless all the pc software will in fact work flawlessly on a mac.
thats all i gotta say bout it.

[George Necola]

ok manning. the gearslutz-deathsquad is on the way. dfegad

I think your post is fine, but lets see how its evolving :D

cheers

[manning1]

george....LOL.
i hadnt had my morning coffee fix when i posted.
all the best.

[nikki-k]

manning...no problem! I understand where you are coming from, and respect the input.

Just to put it in perspective tho...I choose Mac right now because of OS X. The memory handling is better than XP IMO, and thus allows me to work with some larger sample libraries loaded up without relying more heavily on disk streaming, and thus requiring more host overhead (read as: more loaded into RAM, less host draw). I use BFD and Ivory at the same time alot, and might add one more sample driven instrument occassionally. BFD with the kits I use is bad enough...but I have it slimmed down to within a 4G confine...getting it down to 2-2.5G would be difficult/impossible- I have tried!

I have no intention of starting a Mac v PC war...I love both platforms! Heck, I ran PT HD on XP, and pioneered the hardware for the computers to run it. But, I am also a huge fan of the new Mac Pros, and love OS X...and Linux. I see benfits with each. I see nasties with each. And Vista looks like it will be nice...I am just not ready to gamble on it yet. And I am doing this plea for help because I really do need something now..let's just say it is to prevent a full emotional meltdown...lol!!! (kinda hinted at by the long ramblings in the form of a desperate plea for help...). I really do appreciate all the input so far...

[Diginerd]

You didn't mention if you wanted HD (with DSP) support. If so you have two choices.

Logic & Digital Performer.

I can't comment much on either as I've only used both lightly (I'm a Cubase User primarily).

Both are rocking products though, and I have many buddies who use both and both sets of people have equally good results.

As far as I can (unscientifically! ;-) work out Logic is a much deeper program than Performer, but that power can come at some expense in terms of setup and configuration.

[manning1]

nikki...
thanks for takeing my comments in the good nature intended.
and i wish you every happiness with your mac.
talking of linux..ive been keeping my eye on 64studio.com
and some other interesting developments.

[nikki-k]

@manning- cool! Yeah, linux and unix "make sense" to me more so than any other OS... maybe it is a deep seated leftover from learning to program back in the 70's and 80's

@diginerd- fancy seeing you here! I am actually not tied to HD...I will be using the hardware, but only in an I/O capacity, not as a "reskinned HD" type thing, ala Logic TDM, or DP DAE. I have ruled out DP completely...I actually own DP, and it falls short in some key areas that make it almost as rough as PT HD for composing in the manner I want to (please dont scream at me DP owners! It is a task finding something to "fit into")

I am so very, very torn between Cubase 4 and Logic Pro. Logic might soon release a revolutionary version. And soon could very well be a month or so away. But, the key areas that make Cubase 4 so appealing might never be met by any other app in the same way. <huge sigh> I just wish I could have a nice solid day with Logic Pro and Cubase 4, uncrippled, 100% operational. I just want to see how well Cubase 4 does on my Mac Pro, and how well these features I see that have me swayed to Cubase really do in real world use....but, ditto for Logic.

Cubase 4 has cycle recording for BOTH audio and MIDI that (supposedly) works identically with each. And the lanes aspect is SOOOO appealing: collapse the track from Lanes down to a single lane, or expand, all with a simple click and selection of prefs when doing so. I cannot see how to do something similar in Logic, and with Logic's rep for MIDI supremacy, it baffles me as to why I cannot edit MIDI regions in a "this track/lane receives priority", as audio regions do. If two MIDI regions occur at the same point in time and are both unmuted, the priority does not matter if both tracks are routed to the same destination (as from a cycle record, with each pass creating a new track, and muting each previous cycle's region/track), but with audio, the lower track (in the Logic Express Trial at least) WILL receive priority, and the lowest, unmuted track plays, any above do not.

Anyway- I have clogged this thread with sooo much writing...and IMO, it is simply because I have no way to try these apps legally, and I am far too poor to buy both just to figure which is "it." So, thx for putting up with my lengthy postings about this!

[a2dpapi]

Josh here...I'm looking for exactly the same thing. I too run an HD2 accel system on a quadzilla PC but detest PT for composition, and XPs memory limitations. I have gotten big into Ableton Live 6. As a compositional tool it is without parallel in my view, the learning curve isn't too steep, and has many of the functions you desire, plus more. A 64 bit os and tons of ram would be swell.....I think Live 6 on a mac would be the way to go?

[The MPCist]

I use a PT HD3 accel system now running on a Mac Pro but I completely understand wanting to use a computer that's more composer-friendly. I've been using PT to compose and arrange but sometimes i hate the waste of time and (mental energy) just to set up and get everything geared towards the song. In DP, it was really simple but the software was way too buggy for me.... Logic I've been using more recently but it does require you to be a bit more on the technical side... and not as 'friendly' as others although it's a superb tool.

I'm still searching and hopefully I'll find it.

[jbuehler]

I compose in Reason with shitty sounds and than bring the midi into PT and change the sounds to better VIs. Reason is great for lightning quick coposing.

BTW, I didn't read your long post.

[n8tron]

Just for some background, I know PT and DP well, and can get by on Logic.

Logic is the wild card here, because its next version could be light years in either direction, or it could be a small change(god forbid)

DP is fantastic for sequencing. I use it for orchestral stuff often. I'm not going to name off every feature because honestly when it comes down to it, its not the "features" its how it gets used. I love the way I "use" pro tools. From simple stuff down to the way the timeline works when you hit play, use the select tool to move it and having it snap back when you hit stop. Its stupid stuff like that, that works ever so slightly different in other apps is why I like one app over another.

Anyway I'm kinda in the same boat as you. I really want to buckle down and use 1 daw. Really though, though, as frustrating as this decision was for me, I've decided to sit tight for the rest of the year. I've really felt lately that the 3 apps I've mentioned are at a crossroads. Obviously the big logic overhaul is coming, and I think Pro tools is going to really start gearing more features towards composition, and I'm hoping they start developing a native solution. I'm waiting, to dive into 1 daw for that to see what goes where.

This is fine for me because I can do what I need with what I have in the mean time, so if you need something now I would suggest grabbing a copy of DP, its going to be very reasonable with a cross grade discount. That should tide you over for sure. I don't know your finance situation, but if its tight right now I'd wait.

Cubase I don't know much about other than I can't look at it without my eyes hurting, so I've stayed away from it. Just my opinion, I've heard BRILLIANT music come out of it in ALL styles.

[fastlane]

I'm pretty sure Cubase 4 can handle all your needs with the expecion of audio to midi.

Not 100% about sysex. Although you can save and assign presets with outboad midi gear. Also, mediabay(within C4) could help. It's pretty flexible. Give stein a call and they'll tell you straight

[nikki-k]

Hi!
Yeah, Cubase4 had alot of promise, but I found too many VST's missing for Intel Mac stil, and the stability for me was a bit shaky. But, I am hoping something will break somewhere in the next several months.

Logic: I owned it for a few months, and it was actually pretty, well, logical to me. It seems to be an "object oriented" dream, and totally makes sense ot me. But, I have programming background, so it wasn't too bad getting in the Logic "headspace."

DP: Yeah, the underdog I wish would make a nice leap. I was almost ready to go, and then I tried to loop record MIDI and have a new take each time. Oh well.

I have actually gone back to PT for now. I am hoping with all my heart that they do something positive with the MIDI side soon. With the acquisition of Sibelius by Avid, I am hoping good things are coming. So, I sold Logic, and bought Sibelius 5, and Melodyne Studio! Even though there are some things that drive me up a wall with PT, especially with MIDI, I know it so well that I have found I am simply better off with it for now. Better the devil you I guess, as they say. And Sibelius is pretty awesome IMO! Especially with ver 5...wow! Very, very cool.

Melodyne I am digging for a weird reason actually: learning, and training. Practicing vocal lines (I am a horrible singer), and seeing where I have gone wrong, learning to "hear" my own voice a little better ( bad tinnitus does not help), and also for getting my fretless bass playing, and even for learning to do micro-tonal stuff on guitar and bass. As far as compsoing is concerned, I LOVE making a duplicate of a track (guitar, vocal, keys, whatever) and then experiementing with harmonies. For me, Melodyne is just wicked easy to use. I imagine there might be better tools for these things, but it works for me, and I am pretty happy now .

Ableton Live- I tried it awhile back, but it just didnt "click" for me. I can see the potential, and I can see why so many people absolutely love it. Definitely a cool app!