Strings/orchester sounds/samplers/lib

[orpheus]

i am a composition student, i am familiar and own kontakt and i played with ewql symphonics strings, but somehow the phrasing and sounds seem to me still very generic, especially when it comes to a variety of phrasings, i still find that the samples/sounds dont glue like they would from a real player, and it just annoys me to make my sketches on something that sounds like plastic...... so i was wondering what do people use to create "authetic"(as possible) sounding arrangements? am i just missing something about the use of midi, is it in some sort of automation? if so is there some book to get?
i dont care for pop strings, i am thinking for orchestral sounds, i am trying to get as close to the real deal as possible.
thanks in advance.

[SergioS]

Not really an expert on this, but I have used Vienna symphony library for classical soundtrack for a documentary about Roman Empire. In combination with Tascam Giga studio i got some nice and authentic phrases. The VSL is interesting becouse you get controllers for agogics and dynamics that you can program easily. Apart from a huge and fantastic sounding library.

[theblotted]

do you play any string inst? it'll help if you do; if not, learn how they articulate their sounds.

after that, it's all about programming that particular performance. get creative and get anally meticulous about details.

large orchestra is easier to get away with, but for chamber it's pretty difficult.

you can also try layering real strings on top of the orchestra. and/or soli strings on top of ensembles.

[orpheus]

thanks for your input,

first of i am a studied guitarist (modern/jazz/blues/funk) and i play a decent piano, so i hope/doubt it is my imagination or understanding of phrasing.. i know strings are different but i think i have a grasp on how phrasing should sound but somehow when i try to emphasis the phrasings i hear it just sounds fake.. maybe it is the part, maybe i am sloppy, but then i just dont see how to go about this really .. is there a book? should i try gigastudio? dont see myself being able to buy the VSL library, right now, but that sure sounds interesting.

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by orpheus

thanks for your input,

first of i am a studied guitarist (modern/jazz/blues/funk) and i play a decent piano, so i hope/doubt it is my imagination or understanding of phrasing.. i know strings are different but i think i have a grasp on how phrasing should sound but somehow when i try to emphasis the phrasings i hear it just sounds fake.. maybe it is the part, maybe i am sloppy, but then i just dont see how to go about this really .. is there a book? should i try gigastudio? dont see myself being able to buy the VSL library, right now, but that sure sounds interesting.

well the good news is, at least you know what sounds bad. i hear too many ppl's string parts sounding crappy, and they don't even know the difference.

you can try out demo's. i'd recommend Giga, VSL, Synful, Garritan. if you want, you can even try the old Roland S760, many pro film scorer's are still using'em.

ask around, see if there're any string players near you. just take an afternoon and interview them, ask them to play for you, get a feel for what strings are all about. wouldn't hurt to learn all the techniques (bowing, pizz, range, dynamics, comfort zone, sharps or flats, just to name a few). the more you know, the better you can approach it.

comes down to performance and arrangement.. g'luck.

[halcyo]

Sincy you have Kontakt, check out Sonic Implants String Libraries....best I've heard (from the audio demos anyway)... The Vienna 'Apassionata' Strings seems nice too.

I thought the EWQL Orchestra sounded kinda fakey too...


halcyo

[DMP1024]

Hi,
My favorite sounding library is VSL... but obviously it's really expensive. The one I recomend to anyone who is serious about learning orchestration is Garritan Personal Orchestra. It comes with notation software (overture) that syncs directly with the library. It's about about as easy as it gets. Just make sure you have 2 gigs of ram to run the a full orchestra.
The esql library also sounds really good. But again, my "go to" is usually GPO. It's very nicely put together.

Good luck,
Mike p~

[lazzaro]

This <A HREF="http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41257">discussion</A> is a good starting point for you. It's
about how to use a Garritan product (Stradivari Solo Violin) to do
a challenging solo (Paganini's Capriccio). The discussion in the
link is rather long -- to motivate you, here is the mp3 of the
final result:

http://www.webalice.it/fatis12/files/Capriccio%20n1.mp3

When I played it in a computer music class I helped to teach
last year, the audience (heavy with string players) had no
trouble realizing it was not a human player, but generally agreed it
was a good try.

[statikcat]

That Garritan demo sounds pretty bad to my ears.. but I have never liked Garritan..

Above EWQL Symphonic Orchestra (with expansions to add solo strings) tends to be Vienna from my experience. However, you have to realize that playing and arranging strings from a computer library is an art of it's own. Layering different patches and splitting across keys, using keyswitches, and other settings is how you get a realistic string or brass sequence in most cases.

[thenoodle]

Vsl is the best I've encountered. They all take a fair degree of orchestration skill to get the best results.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by lazzaro

This <A HREF="http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41257">discussion</A> is a good starting point for you. It's
about how to use a Garritan product (Stradivari Solo Violin) to do
a challenging solo (Paganini's Capriccio). The discussion in the
link is rather long -- to motivate you, here is the mp3 of the
final result:

http://www.webalice.it/fatis12/files/Capriccio%20n1.mp3

When I played it in a computer music class I helped to teach
last year, the audience (heavy with string players) had no
trouble realizing it was not a human player, but generally agreed it
was a good try.

That violin sound like utter garbage compared to the real thing, and yet a lot of the folks over at Northern Sounds would veritably cream their pancakes at such a demo. The Cello is just as bad (if not worse) and yet I hear people actually describing it as sounding like the real thing. Come on guys, use your ears!

Before you know it, people will be listening to Pinchas Zukerman and saying "yes, he's okay, but he doesn't have that synthetic, gratey, sampled instrument sound..."

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

That violin sound like utter garbage compared to the real thing, and yet a lot of the folks over at Northern Sounds would veritably cream their pancakes at such a demo."

i think the tone and timbre sounds pretty synthetic, but the MIDI performance was excellent.

would love to hear what kind of string sounds you're getting.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by theblotted

i think the tone and timbre sounds pretty synthetic, but the MIDI performance was excellent.

would love to hear what kind of string sounds you're getting.

When it comes to strings (be it guitar, bass, violin, viola etc.), I tend to use real musicians.

To be honest, I find it very hard to judge the MIDI performance when the sound is so fake. It didn't move me in any way whatsoever.

[orpheus]

Thanks again,

i will read the link when i get back from school, i think the arrangemnt is great, and i believe this is something i was looking for, the sound source, well thats another thing.... one more question since it often pops up in discussion about this, is there something gigastudio can do that the NI based players(kontakt, ewql, gpo) don't?

[mOjO FET]

Have you tried to play the strings on a keyboard? Since you mentioned that you also play the keys it might give you more realism.

I never programm parts, since I can play them myself, but IMO it never really is a convincing option for such "soulful" intruments like strings or basses.

I think the EW QL stuff is pretty good from what I've heard so far.

Michael

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

When it comes to strings (be it guitar, bass, violin, viola etc.), I tend to use real musicians.

To be honest, I find it very hard to judge the MIDI performance when the sound is so fake. It didn't move me in any way whatsoever.

yeah, when there's a budget, nothing beats the real thing. when no constraints, i also prefer real musicians anyday as well.

but that's kind of missing the point of the thread.

if you've programmed some strings with MIDI before, you know how difficult it is to achieve that performance you heard in the mp3. i believe that mp3 sounds like crap (and didn't move you) perhaps cuz the problem lies in bad string samples to begin with.

string samples have their uses. in denser pop arrangements, when one can't afford the philaharmonic, or when you just need that fake string sound. to get the best out of it, is combination of lotsa things already mentioned in this thread (arrangement, performance, etc.)

[DMP1024]

Hi again,

I just got Kontakt 2. It comes with some VSL sounds. I was surprised to find they are a partial version of the Opus 1/Horizon library. They sound pretty darn good. I can't wait to start using them. A great bang for the buck!

I have to say, I still like Garritan. If your learning, they have a great way of dividing sections into individual player. Once you get your arranging chops together, you can always go to other libraries in the future.

Midi Orchestration is a complicated art of it's own. Good luck,
Mike p~

[piano]

Even with the fantastic sample libraries out there that cost thousands - you will still have to do work to get them to sound good.

Solo violin or cello --- forget about it - sure the gariatan will get you kinda close - but you need a real accomplished player.

Finally, keyboard skills and composition tools are your best bet. As a student, learn compositional techniques - they are far more valuable than what you learn as a knob tweaker.

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by orpheus

i am a composition student, i am familiar and own kontakt and i played with ewql symphonics strings, but somehow the phrasing and sounds seem to me still very generic, especially when it comes to a variety of phrasings, i still find that the samples/sounds dont glue like they would from a real player, and it just annoys me to make my sketches on something that sounds like plastic...... so i was wondering what do people use to create "authetic"(as possible) sounding arrangements? am i just missing something about the use of midi, is it in some sort of automation? if so is there some book to get?
i dont care for pop strings, i am thinking for orchestral sounds, i am trying to get as close to the real deal as possible.
thanks in advance.

I agree with everyone here because working with samples is a lot of work.
Are you using EWQL Silver? Very many professionals use EWQL gold and platinum stuff. Composing with samples is an art and you must use very many articulations for any string library. Here is something used with EWQL....>
http://www.darrenpasdernick.com/dpas...k_Snow_Day.mp3
http://www.darrenpasdernick.com/dpas...With_Light.mp3

Sonic Implant is awesome

[Youn]

I agree most of stuff you will produce with these libraries will not be realistic. Some folks can pull off WAY better results then others, but they either have alot of experience or alot of time (ussually both, of course)

when I first heard these libraries many years ago I thought it was WAY fake sounding, then after using them alot start "believing" others' were 100% realistic... so I assume alot of these people are so keyed into listening for these subtle things, they loose what the big pictures sounds like, like I did... (don't worry, after my recent detox program I've discovered it all sounds crap again)

i dunno though it IS getter better, maybe someday we will see something like NOTION but actually sound realistic to even the best ears

[6strings]

Originally Posted by orpheus

so i was wondering what do people use to create "authetic"(as possible) sounding arrangements?

You do need some knowledge of the instrument to coax a "realistic" sound out of a MIDI performance, but for serious work the film guys usually at least blend in a live instrument with the MIDI tracks (assuming they don't have a budget for a whole section).

+1 GPO for writing & studying composition. Easy to use "out of the box", great support.

[CShorte]

orpheus,
I would give the library a try using a MIDI guitar controller. With the up and down stroke, string vibration, vibrato and string bending associated with playing a guitar, you may get more mileage then the off/on switching of sounds from a keyboard controller. CS.

[BigAl]

http://www.vsl.co.at/en-us/211/344/237.vsl

I hope this help.
--Al

[gcorbett]

I just got Miroslav Philharmonik, and I think it might be what you are looking for. It covers all sections of an orchestra and choir, including percussion and keyboard instuments. All instruments have choices for solo and ensemble sounds, and cover a pretty wide range of dynamics, and articulations. It works as a stand alone or as a VST instrument, It seems to get pretty deep, as far as programmability, and sounds great. It has a few built in effects, covering ambience, eq, delay, and pretty much anything you would use with an orchestra. As I said, I just got it, but so far so good. I did a bit of research, and it seems to be right in the middle of the "virtual orchestra" spectrum. It's library is around 7gig. It certainly is a great tool for sketching out arrangement ideas, and I'm sure with some careful programming, and tweaking, it can be used for more than that. All that said, it really helps to study orchestration, and know how to write for the instruments in an orchestra. There is an online orchestration course at the Garritan website. It is fre, and definately worth checking out.