gain structure, headroom, on digital domain

[mattianlaseppia]

hello, i've read "mixing with your mind" of mike stervrou, i like it!!! i've discuss a lot with a my friend about have a "analog headroom" on digital domain. but i can't find a way.

our methods is to:

play each tracks in solo mode with fader at max +6db

put a vu-meter like psp vintage meter on master (setting up -18dbfs or -14dbfs for reference level, and 300ms of release time)

calibrate the gain of each tracks to read +2 on vu meter


but i work with samples library often recorded at 0dbfs or 0.1dbfs of peak.
often, after i've calibrate each gain tracks, i clip the master too.. of 1 or 2 db, or sometimes of some point 0.3, 0.5

the better results are -1.5, -2 dbfs on master, but i think that with this techniques i have to read something like -6 or -3/4 on master peak meter.

my friend says that the trick is to have track peak value at max -6 and that is important to have max -6db of gain reduction (gain correction) but i always have, for example, bd at -5 (and it's ok), snare on -9, hh on -10db of gain correction/reduction. but i can't to have enough headroom on master track.

why? which are your methods to prevent clips and have a good headroom for each tracks? and for master track?

thanks and sorry for my english

p.s. yes after all +6 fader in solo mode, i align all at 0 )

[mattianlaseppia]

hey thanks to anyone who can help me in this great problem that i have.
the problem i think is specially for fast transients (maybe i have to put the release time to 30ms (min value)) for hh, sn. or maybe the problems is for samples library that are all at 0dbfs or -0.1dbfs..

do you have some tricks, helps, for that?

thaaaaaanks really to all!!

[RadioMoo]

-18 db in Pro Tools = 0 VU on your Vintage Meter.

[mattianlaseppia]

yes, you have understand anything of that i wrote, but i think is a my fault, my bad english..

(-18 in protools or in all the other software, is 0 on VU if VU reference level is -18, if is -14, is not 0 on VU

anyone have understand what i wrote?

[RadioMoo]

Originally Posted by mattianlaseppia

yes, you have understand anything of that i wrote, but i think is a my fault, my bad english..

(-18 in protools or in all the other software, is 0 on VU if VU reference level is -18, if is -14, is not 0 on VU

anyone have understand what i wrote?

Umm, well, don't calibrate to -14; always use -18. Also, I don't understand why you set the gain of each track to +2; doesn't it fall into place for you if you just use the -18/0VU calibration? Are you saying you get clipping in the mix bus if you don't calibrate this way?

[mattianlaseppia]

Originally Posted by RadioMoo

Umm, well, don't calibrate to -14; always use -18. Also, I don't understand why you set the gain of each track to +2; doesn't it fall into place for you if you just use the -18/0VU calibration? Are you saying you get clipping in the mix bus if you don't calibrate this way?

mike stevrou use +2 db calibration.. i don't know ipse dixit

no i say that i clipping in the mix bus also if i use the -18 calibration.
note that i use a lot of samples library (and unfortunatly are all recorded at 0dbfs or -0.1dbfs) and note that in some song i use 4 or 5 or more percussive loops to make the base.. like drum 'n bass strange effect, but i clip also if i don't use too much loop, or i'm however around -1.5 or -2 on mix bus, and i think that i have to be around -6 or -3/4db.

do you think that i have to use 0 and not +2 on vu-meter?

another important question: if i have to reduce gain of more than 6db on some tracks, is a problem? why some people says that is a problem?

thanks really!! your help is very important for me.

[RadioMoo]

Originally Posted by mattianlaseppia

if i have to reduce gain of more than 6db on some tracks, is a problem? why some people says that is a problem?

Well, I'm a little out of my league here, but my gut tells me to use the Gain plug in
to get the samples peaking at no more than -18; from there it's a matter of how you structure the mix as a whole. I don't think it's a problem to reduce gain more than 6db, because if the samples are at 0dbfs, they're too hot to use in a track.

[numrologst]

I don't understand why you don't just pull the fader down... I also don't understand where you won't dump more than 6db of the fader....

It's been a while since i have done a mix in the box... So I don't quite remember my processes...

But I track with a -12dbfs reference level... I consistently track with peaks hitting 0 and I have never had a problem

But as for controlling levels in the box, just use the faders... If you have to pull it down 12db... Then that's what you have to do..

I hope i am understanding your issue

[mattianlaseppia]

yes, you are right, but i like to use this technique because if i calibrate each tracks in this way, thats helps me to mix with all tracks in play and hear where a track needs more comp or more high or low, in a global way, in a global depending relationships way (maybe my english is too bad to be understood...)

well than for you if i put down more than 6 db, maybe 12 or maybe 18 (you say -18 db on each tracks? is this your reference level Radiomoo?) i can forget all this trouble and i can let's my hands mix..

but i think that the fear of -6db is something real, i heard about that from famous audio engineering (but now i can't remember the names but for me is more a fear than something i can hear

well thanks to all!!! reallY!!!

[Ravian]

try the K-system (bob katz)

you wil never clip the 2bus.

[RadioMoo]

Originally Posted by mattianlaseppia

yes, you are right, but i like to use this technique because if i calibrate each tracks in this way, thats helps me to mix with all tracks in play and hear where a track needs more comp or more high or low, in a global way, in a global depending relationships way (maybe my english is too bad to be understood...)

well than for you if i put down more than 6 db, maybe 12 or maybe 18 (you say -18 db on each tracks? is this your reference level Radiomoo?) i can forget all this trouble and i can let's my hands mix..

but i think that the fear of -6db is something real, i heard about that from famous audio engineering (but now i can't remember the names but for me is more a fear than something i can hear

well thanks to all!!! reallY!!!

Yes, I use -18=0VU. The engineer I think you mean is Paul Frindel. Don't fear less than -6 in a track - fear unwanted clipping. If you're recording at 24 bits, your finished product will have the resolution and the openness you want. There's a really lo-o-o-n-n-ng thread where this is discussed at length; the actual meat of the discussion starts on page four, which is here - scroll down to Paul Frindle's post.

[mattianlaseppia]

ok, yes i have see the thread, tonight i read all.
than you think that there isn't any degradation under -6db

for me is well, i just looking for a way to improve my mix

bye!!!

[bobwarren]

ipse dixit


What the....?

[mattianlaseppia]

ehm sorry what do you mean? you want to know what means ipse dixit? means something like "i do as you said" its a citation

[RadioMoo]

Originally Posted by mattianlaseppia

ehm sorry what do you mean? you want to know what means ipse dixit? means something like "i do as you said" its a citation

ipse dixit

Latin for "he himself said it." The term labels something that is asserted but unproved.

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/T...2BA64/alpha/I/

[hereticskeptic]

Originally Posted by numrologst

I don't understand why you don't just pull the fader down... I also don't understand where you won't dump more than 6db of the fader....

It's been a while since i have done a mix in the box... So I don't quite remember my processes...

But I track with a -12dbfs reference level... I consistently track with peaks hitting 0 and I have never had a problem

But as for controlling levels in the box, just use the faders... If you have to pull it down 12db... Then that's what you have to do..

I hope i am understanding your issue

I know this is a really old post, but I think you were addressing my primary concern with recording in Pro Tools.

I am using the Apogee Duet, and there is a mixer that has an input level, as well as a "from software" level. Is one of these the fader that you speak of? Does anyone know?

I really, really want to avoid clipping from this point forward, but have no understanding of how to set the fader so that you cannot record above -12db. Also, does this apply to any instrument you are recording (voice, bass, guitar, etc.)? Any and all help would be beyond appreciated. Again, I am using Pro Tools 9 and the Apogee Duet, for reference.