Logic 8 ? *merged*

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Roger Starr

That's a good thing for sure!!!

Roger

why? you can connect it initally and ignore it completely.
In fact it works pretty much fine after installation.
create your own "autoload" and be done with it.
I don't understand the aversity.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Macaroni

What exactly do you mean, "if Apple gets its way". What do you know conclusively about what Apple wants or doesn't want re Logic? Are your suspicions based on facts or just speculation?

Apple's usual 'way' is to serve the needs of professionals who will use their products, not to thwart them.

The Environment as we know it, most likely will change into something more elegant and simple. They still have to accommodate people who need something like the Environment due to their specific setup, so hopefully they've come up with a better, more simplified way to handle it.

As far as touch screens, I for one am not anxious to have my arms constantly extended towards a screen to touch things that I want to manipulate. Think about it... that would be very uncomfortable over an extended period of time. Between my Mackie controller, a keyboard and a mouse, I've got it all ergonomically covered, without feeling like I'm constrained or something. Maybe if the touch screen was flat on the desk it would be more direct and accessible, but I'm not convinced that I'll be spending $ on another monitor just to grease it up with my fingers.

And even if the new app is touch screen capable, that doesn't mean you won't be able to use it without touching, so as long as you can run OSX 10.5, you'll be able to use the new program.

sure it will be tabletop, and can you imagine a touchscreen hovering on a suspending arm next to your rack or keyboard? to me that would be kindof cool, check the cintiq wacom tablets.. I think apple will integrate the stuff inside the screen, for some models like they've done with the imac.
you'll probably have to buy/use a normal screen to display tracks etc.
speculate?
speculate?
speculaas!




all this talk makes me hungry

[steff3]

Originally Posted by joris de man

Well, Nuendo/Cubase handles this in one of two ways; it has a midi transformer on the midi input of a midichannel that can be set either globally or locally, in which you can scale the velocity.
The other way is that it supports midi plugins which can be set per channel, on which you can also use a velocity scaler.

I also think that this is not comparable with Logic environment. Input transformers are very limited, the environment is much better, Also the signal routing between tracks is really great to achieve things that you would normally need Live for.
If the environment goes, Logic would lose one of its strength - and there are not too many these days. Well, i you program you own MIDIplugins in Cubase you can achieve some things that are dead easy in logic .....

best

[joris de man]

Originally Posted by steff3

I also think that this is not comparable with Logic environment. Input transformers are very limited, the environment is much better, Also the signal routing between tracks is really great to achieve things that you would normally need Live for.
If the environment goes, Logic would lose one of its strength - and there are not too many these days. Well, i you program you own MIDIplugins in Cubase you can achieve some things that are dead easy in logic .....

best

I wasn't saying an input transformer would be comparable to the logic environment; I was merely illustrating that for some things (such as velocity scaling, which the other poster could not imagine being done in another way) don't require anything more sophisticated than an input transformer on a midichannel.

This was the point of my post; I'm sure there are lots of configurations that you can do with logic's environment that are impossible to do with a simple input transformer.
I personally found Logic's enviroment a mixed blessing; great for setting up complex midi structures, but a pain in the butt for quickly setting up a session; surely setting up a midi interface with 8 i/o doesn't require me to drag in 8 multi instruments and link them to the midi interface, then another line to the midi input etc.?
These are situations where I think a revamp or rethink of Logic's environment would be a good idea...

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by joris de man

I wasn't saying an input transformer would be comparable to the logic environment; I was merely illustrating that for some things (such as velocity scaling, which the other poster could not imagine being done in another way) don't require anything more sophisticated than an input transformer on a midichannel.

This was the point of my post; I'm sure there are lots of configurations that you can do with logic's environment that are impossible to do with a simple input transformer.
I personally found Logic's enviroment a mixed blessing; great for setting up complex midi structures, but a pain in the butt for quickly setting up a session; surely setting up a midi interface with 8 i/o doesn't require me to drag in 8 multi instruments and link them to the midi interface, then another line to the midi input etc.?
These are situations where I think a revamp or rethink of Logic's environment would be a good idea...

no, just connect the sum of the I/O object to the "to arrangement tracks" object in the I/O page, create a couple of multi intruments (just leave unconnected) in the midi instruments page and select midi ch and port in the arrange. it used to be different, but isn't really anymore as you can now select ports in the arrange window. (since v 6 I think) if you want to do funny tricks, make a new object, draw a line (or control click) from the output of the I/O to the input of the object, and control click on the little triangle to select the midi instrument it should connect to. automation isn't a hyper edit thing anymore too. But you knew all that I'm sure.
goeienacht thumbsup

[jon2911]

I have to say I enjoyed that French blog, crappy translation and all. Here's how he would describe Logic after the Emagic purchase:

Year later arrives finally a version 7, unstable, not filling its schedule of conditions and starting to make doubt the users when in the future software. It will still take a year to have a minor update, 7.1. This one, far from correcting all the problems, still does not fill the schedule of conditions initially envisaged of version 7. Still a year occurs and an update 7.2 will finally come to propose an again stable program and to finish what would have being with version 7.

The question which one has thus the right to be posed is: Which future for Logic?

Wow, has it really been that bad? That's even worse than I thought. No wonder Logic users are ticked and hoping for a massive update. We'll see...

[jetplane666666]

Originally Posted by joris de man

I wasn't saying an input transformer would be comparable to the logic environment; I was merely illustrating that for some things (such as velocity scaling, which the other poster could not imagine being done in another way) don't require anything more sophisticated than an input transformer on a midichannel.

Yes but you misread my original post. I don't want to start an argument about the Environment but I'm curious how exactly one would do this in other programs. Like I said I replaced the original keyboard with a new one that had different velocity scaling on the black keys. Here is a pic of the part of my environment that corrects this:

As you can see I use one transformer configured as a scaler for each black key to attenuate the response. At the right is the detail for one of the scalers. This is much more surgical than simply "applying an input transformer on a midi channel".

[quincyg]

my theory is that logic is too complex to ever be stable. the possible user tweaks are so infinite that conflicts/ bugs seems to be created within the application as you are fine tuning it. this has been my experience. i have done some cool things with the environment and have also created disastrous situation via environment craziness. i don't need or want it. they could give the environment devotees a seperate mode for what you need i suppose.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by jon2911

..Wow, has it really been that bad?..

yes

[jon2911]

Oh, and here's the direct (translated) quote from the French dude about the Environment, since you guys have decided to argue about it:

The environment of Logic being incomprehensible for the néophites, Apple does not want any. Apple had wished to see it disappearing as of version 7, but this one being the root of the program, the environment had thus been entitled to a deferment.

- Logic remains too much complex for the common run of people and thus does not correspond to the Apple charter. Thus this one must disappear for better reappearing of its ashes

[Fredrik]

I see it like this, if you feel that the enviroment is to complex just leave it alone and you´ll be fine. Its not necessary to poke around in there to get some music done, but if you have very specific requirements, the enviroment offers possibilities like no other daw.

[joris de man]

Originally Posted by jetplane666666

Yes but you misread my original post. I don't want to start an argument about the Environment but I'm curious how exactly one would do this in other programs. Like I said I replaced the original keyboard with a new one that had different velocity scaling on the black keys. Here is a pic of the part of my environment that corrects this:

As you can see I use one transformer configured as a scaler for each black key to attenuate the response. At the right is the detail for one of the scalers. This is much more surgical than simply "applying an input transformer on a midi channel".

Well, here you go. I'm not wanting to start a dispute about the power of the environment window; like I said, having used Logic extensively from Version 2 to 6.4.whatever, I was for a longtime a big proponent of Logic.
What did become clear to me however, is that certain things can be simplified greatly without compromising on flexibillity. And the example you gave me was to me, one of those things that doesn't need an extensive diagram.
So, as an example, here is your diagram in Nuendo's input transformer. Basically a quite simple if->then loop that multiplies the velocity with a value if it meets the condition that it is the key I've specified; in this case, a few black keys. Naturally I could add all the black keys I want, but I thought 3 was enough to illustrate the example.

All the best,

Joe

[F5D]

I like environment because I can build my own mixer. I never use logic's real mixer window. In fact I hate it. I want to put my faders where I want them to be.

[steff3]

Originally Posted by F5D

I like environment because I can build my own mixer. I never use logic's real mixer window. In fact I hate it. I want to put my faders where I want them to be.

Yes this is another strength of the environment - organize your mixer in 2D - not just 1 dimensional on a line. If environment goes, then I will also quite Logic I think. But still I do not think so - I mean OSX also has the shell and Apple script and so on. (I was never able to figure out the automator or how it is called - I think apple's interface sometimes leaves a lot to desire .....) They should start their overhaul and make it easier with the project window - I mean it is simple to use - a little bit too simple.

best

[steff3]

Originally Posted by joris de man

Well, here you go. I'm not wanting to start a dispute about the power of the environment window; like I said, having used Logic extensively from Version 2 to 6.4.whatever, I was for a longtime a big proponent of Logic.
What did become clear to me however, is that certain things can be simplified greatly without compromising on flexibillity. And the example you gave me was to me, one of those things that doesn't need an extensive diagram.
So, as an example, here is your diagram in Nuendo's input transformer. Basically a quite simple if->then loop that multiplies the velocity with a value if it meets the condition that it is the key I've specified; in this case, a few black keys. Naturally I could add all the black keys I want, but I thought 3 was enough to illustrate the example.

All the best,

Joe

I think there is clearly a difference between the principle in the Logic snapshop and the Nuendo one - in the Logic you can easily assign a velocity curve to each key - in Nuendo that would ge difficult (or simply - is not possible) There are tons of other stuff - the transformers are quite cute in Cubase/Nuendo - but no where as easy to handle (I always find the workflow to set up a transformer in Cubase pretty weird) and nowhere as flexible as the environment. You can believe it or not.
If you want flexibility - no other DAW can touch Logic - and that is due to the environment. But Maybe Steinberg goes on with copying Logic (the interface and stuff with Cubase4) and Cubase 5 will have an environment and the hobby musicians at Apple have thrown it away ....

best

[steff3]

Originally Posted by quincyg

my theory is that logic is too complex to ever be stable. .

I can only speak for my setup - but logic is here one of the most stable and efficient programs. there is hardly anything coming close. trouble free most of the time ....

best

[bleen]

Originally Posted by steff3

I can only speak for my setup - but logic is here one of the most stable and efficient programs. there is hardly anything coming close. trouble free most of the time ....

best

yup. same here...

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by bleen

yup. same here...

+1.

[Dr Gruv]

ditto

[joris de man]

Originally Posted by steff3

I think there is clearly a difference between the principle in the Logic snapshop and the Nuendo one - in the Logic you can easily assign a velocity curve to each key - in Nuendo that would ge difficult (or simply - is not possible) There are tons of other stuff - the transformers are quite cute in Cubase/Nuendo - but no where as easy to handle (I always find the workflow to set up a transformer in Cubase pretty weird) and nowhere as flexible as the environment. You can believe it or not.
If you want flexibility - no other DAW can touch Logic - and that is due to the environment. But Maybe Steinberg goes on with copying Logic (the interface and stuff with Cubase4) and Cubase 5 will have an environment and the hobby musicians at Apple have thrown it away ....

best

Sigh...
Yes, there is difference; however, I was responding to a specific example of which the author couldn't imagine it being done any other way.
In my reply to him I showed that there was an alternative which also didn't require 40 odd seperate transformers.
As stated in my previous post I wasn't suggesting at all that a simple input transformer could replace the environment window of Logic; my point simply was that there are a number of things that don't necessarily need the complexity of the environment window, and can be done just as well with one simple input transformer, as per my example.
Is the environment a powerful feature that can do some amazing things? Most certainly.
Do certain everyday "set and forget" tasks require the environment; well, that is disputable.

Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to reply without getting into a DAW pissing match, which is quite boring really.
As to the Cubase4 copying Logic's interface; a bit rich really considering where the original logic got its interface ideas from when it was released 4-5 years after the original Cubase in 1993(then called Cubit). Suprisingly, Logic sported a rather similar interface

Anyway, as I also mentioned, I used Logic for a great number of years and wouldn't dispute its flexibillity. That having been said, I also found it at times an incredibly frustrating program to deal with, and the environment was a big part of that; personally I found it a bit of a mixed blessing.

But hey, if it works for you that's great. I'm not telling you to switch.
Just stop the 'mine is better than yours' bollocks. They're all great Daws. All of them have their pros and cons...

Best,

Joe

[Goliath|Audio]

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2538

Apple Inc. will hold a special event at the National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) trade show on Sunday, April 15, according to reports.

The Cupertino-based Mac maker offered no details on what, if anything, will be announced at the event, according to Macworld. However, past company presentations at the conference have been given way to launch significant product announcements.

In 2005, Apple used the NAB conference to launch Final Cut Studio and Soundtrack Pro. Recent rumors have suggest the company may be readying a significant update to Final Cut Pro for this year's show. A brawny revision to the Mac Pro also remains ripe for the picking, and could coincide with the company's announcements.

As has been the case in recent years, Apple will command a large show floor presence at NAB, with a mammoth booth located near the entrance to the South Hall.

[rectifier]

who said anyting about nab? They have 3 booths at the musicmesse which is before..

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by rectifier

who said anyting about nab? They have 3 booths at the musicmesse which is before..

Exactly if Logic Pro 8 doesn't come at musikmesse I'll be shocked. It's been a couple of years and they have everything running on universal binary and leopard coming out probably means some nifty new features for those who take the plunge early.

I've got my fingers crossed for the end of this month.

[kmshroom]

Did Apple even say when Leopard is coming out? Except for their website, that says "spring", which could mean anything from a few days to a couple months from now...

Ha, that's funny. One of the tags for this thread is "letdown".

[Macaroni]

Logic Pro 8, or whatever it may be called, will definitely be based on OSX Leopard, and for sure they'll want to add an additional WOW factor with the new Mac Pro dual quad cores, which will let all the new goodies shine brightly, so they'll most likely time the release in conjunction with those other 2 key elements.

Apple generally won't show anything new that isn't going to come out within a month or 2 after the roll out, so, and since Leopard is due for the Spring, they won't mind showing a preview of it in conjunction with Logic 8, but they'll definitely have to have the Mac Pro ready to roll to show it all off.

When that triangulation is happening, we'll see it, and most likely it will all be street ready within 30-60 days of that event.

[jon2911]

Wow, this French blog is getting really entertaining. Check out today's post:

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://phbrodu.free.fr/index.html&prev=/language_tools

I was quite simply contacted yesterday by a person of Apple the USA, asking me nicely to stop my posts concerning the future of Logic.

When I rétorqué to them that all this was for the good of everyone because the users were more than anxious, they answered me that it was impossible, that the posts of my site could only irritate the users.

Apple USA? Do you think they found out about this here? LOL. Apple should spend more time worrying about how many of their Pro users are questioning their commitment to Logic Pro, and that our only source of hope is some obscure French blog. I'm beginning to think their Gestapo tactics aren't very suited for the audio world. Then again, this could also mean that our dear Frenchman is on to something...

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by jon2911

[Then again, this could also mean that our dear Frenchman is on to something...

Or not.

Look what happened recently with the digi 003 LOL, 1 year of speculation made people expect the new box to live up to these totally ungrounded "facts", this ended in disapointment and hatred toward digi.


Who is this french guy anyway? Anyone can start a blog and start writing on what ever subject they desire.


(Interesting though )

[jon2911]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Who is this french guy anyway? Anyone can start a blog and start writing on what ever subject they desire.

He's a former Emagic employee, and if you read back through the 8+ pages of this thread, he's really the only info that Apple is actually doing something exciting with Logic Pro. fwiw I think comparing the 003 to Logic 8 is probably right on. But while Apple's been known to go after rumor sites, why would they go after this guy? I'm also skeptical about his guesses, but this makes me wonder...

[jon2911]

Originally Posted by Macaroni

Logic Pro 8, or whatever it may be called, will definitely be based on OSX Leopard, and for sure they'll want to add an additional WOW factor with the new Mac Pro dual quad cores, which will let all the new goodies shine brightly, so they'll most likely time the release in conjunction with those other 2 key elements.

Apple generally won't show anything new that isn't going to come out within a month or 2 after the roll out, so, and since Leopard is due for the Spring, they won't mind showing a preview of it in conjunction with Logic 8, but they'll definitely have to have the Mac Pro ready to roll to show it all off.

When that triangulation is happening, we'll see it, and most likely it will all be street ready within 30-60 days of that event.

I'm more inclined to go with that French blog from the other thread. Leopard-->iLife '07-->Logic 8, released in that order and with some time in between each. Mac Pros somewhere in there. No doubt, this will be interesting.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by jon2911

He used to work for Emagic, and if you read back through the 8+ pages of this thread, he's the only real info that Apple is actually doing something with Logic Pro.

Yeah, my point is how do you know that for sure? Did you work for emagic at the time?

Originally Posted by jon2911

Apple's been known to go after rumor sites, but why would they go after this guy?

digi 003 effect

and

even though it´s a blog it still is a site with rumors and as you said this is apple practice.


Whatever man, he might be right, infact let´s hope that he is