Logic 8 ? *merged*

[joris de man]

Originally Posted by mersisblue

we;; with a total lack of respect altogether

I must say again HW has always had control

DAE doesnt use the OS or core audio

and the daw is a matter of preference

So again a DSP system Is set to do one thing only

and it does it well

Better tehn native PC or Mac

eight cores you say ? wow

only if they dedicate a CPU to a certain task will it be a winner IMO

Any programmer worth his money would do this anyway. The reason this sometimes doesn't happen is because the software allows us to trade off UI redraw speed to Maximum CPU useage for audio effects.
If you recall, Logic 5, when the dual cpu G4's came out, originally used one CPU for the program, and one CPU for effects/synths.

The upside was that one processor could be practically maxed out, while the other where the program was running on, could still be breezing along.
This meant that the GUI was always very responsive.

The downside was that you often ended up in a scenario where cpu no.2 was utilsed 100%, whereas cpu no.1 only used 10% as program and midi resources didn't require much more. No more fx could be added, as they were only allowed on cpu no.2, causing much grief and anger among the users, as you basically had cpu no.1 practically lying dormant.

A workaround was discoverd that inserting an I/O plugin on a mixer channel would switch that channel to cpu no.1, including any fx inserted afterwards
Didn't take long for everyone to start using that 'hack', and maxing out their G4's.

Though you might be less worried with 8 cores, the simple truth is that any power user will want to leveredge any power he/she has.
The solution is for the DAW manufacturer to program proper 'load balancing', to ensure a good tradeoff between UI responsiveness and FX cpu usage.

The OS has a part in this, and Macos X (and Vista) both allow for much less interference from the OS on applications.

Anyway, the point why DSP works in Protools' case seems to be missed.

UAD and Powercore both have to go through the PCI buss to process:
-Audio gets send from the application to the card
-audio therefore travels over the PCI buss to the card, gets processed there, and gets sent back.
This is why these cards introduce pretty high latency.

PT on the other hand, does all its processing on the TDM bus, which is *on the cards itself*. Multiple cards are linked together via a TDM cable, but data will never have to travel over the PCI buss.
Audio gets sent back to the audio interfaces, so PT basically acts a controller of the TDM buss. (Audio tracks and such are ofcourse sent over the PCI buss to the TDM mixer, which mixes it and applies the processing.)
This is why TDM allows such incredibly low processing, and things such as tracking through FX with pretty much zero latency (we're talking samples here, not even ms).
For a native system to match that latency, the bus speeds need to be pretty damn high, as it has to do a pci buss roundtrip from the card to the DAW and back again to process. I'm unsure whether current mobo architecture is up to the speeds required yet to match a TDM system.

This is why PT systems (esp. when they're not running RTAS, which basically is the same as VST meaning host based processing) can run shetloads of plugins without the computer breaking a sweat; the computer is not actually doing very much at all.

RME cards and such are already pretty close when it comes to playback (32 sample buffers and such), but this is without putting plugins on the input buss, in which case you get the whole PCI buss travel scenario again.

Whatever rabbits Apple pull out of the hat with Logic 8, it's very hard to get around the issue of that PCI buss roundtrip. So don't expect Logic to suddenly gain TDM like latencies..

Next to that, PT isn't going to be killed anytime soon. There are various apps already that funtionality wise beat it in many respects (such as Nuendo), but this is hardly the point.
PT's relatively simple one screen interface and reliable architecture have caused it to become an industry standard, and a lot of people that used it are not interested in sitting on the bleeding edge of audio technology. They are more interested in stabillity, reliabillity, ease of use and zero latency recording with FX, even when running many fx.
It seems that Native system don't yet have the credibillity of carefree operation that PT TDM has.

Doesn't mean that I'm not interested to see what Apple comes up with..though I think expectations are running unrealistically high

Best,

Joe

[jon2911]

Originally Posted by Stiff

It's gotta be the same guy... I noticed this a few months back and laughed my ass off (now officially ass-less)

I'll have to watch those Logic videos. Does he use his trademark "arsome" there too

[valis]

I would say that PT won't be 'killed' because its currently known as the 'industry standard'. This is why so many LE & M versions have been sold, even though sans dsp cards there are arguably better solutions for what the 'bedroom' producer wants to do (tho the midi handling has improved immeasurably over the years). Anything short of a huge snafu on AviDigi's side would probably keep the status quo as it is for years to come.

I can't see a touch screen interface being the 'killer app' that causes everyone to decide on a new 'industry standard' either. It certainly would be appealing to new users or as an upgrade to existing Logic users, but for people who are settled into PT or DP (etc) an Mac I can't see them dropping their current workflow just to get at a better Lemur. I suspect they'd be a bit ho-hum if there's no lower level core midi usage of it that allowed them to use the same device in their workflows. Or heaven forbid the device is a huge replacement for XSKey (you can only get one by buying Logic X or whatever) even if it doesn't actually act as a dongle...

Mind you I don't take much stock in 'industry standards' myself, and prefer my current setup to using pro tools by far, although some of the higher end PT plugins would definately be nice if I felt like adding yet another system to my workflow someday.

Lastly, the environment is the one thing that keeps me coming back to Logic year after year (Hi Notator Logic!). I can understand that there are a lot of users out there who prefer to 'just write music' rather than spend a few weeks familiarizing themselves with the environment (and sometimes with midi in general) and it's nice that each update of Logic has made it easier to do this. But for those that do delve down into the environment and become familiar it's hardly an arcane science. It's a tool that I find indespensible on a constant basis and most longtime Logic users would agree. You might be able to go through on a case by case basis and find a solution in other programs that equals each individual usage of the environment (or a large majority of them) but they're going to be spread out all over the other app (or apps) and often require additional plugins etc.

This is why Logic always felt 'high end' for a sequencer to me, the flexiblity that it offered meant there were always multiple ways to do things, and this holds true in the environment. I would sooner have ApplEmagic support input & output 'midi plugins' *and* keep the environment than drop major functionality just because noobs have an easier time coming to grips with it. The comments about doing an equivalent drop of midi here are quite on the money when it comes to this isssue (imo)...

[J-Traxx The Don]

Originally Posted by valis

I would say that PT won't be 'killed' because its currently known as the 'industry standard'. This is why so many LE & M versions have been sold, even though sans dsp cards there are arguably better solutions for what the 'bedroom' producer wants to do (tho the midi handling has improved immeasurably over the years). Anything short of a huge snafu on AviDigi's side would probably keep the status quo as it is for years to come.

I can't see a touch screen interface being the 'killer app' that causes everyone to decide on a new 'industry standard' either. It certainly would be appealing to new users or as an upgrade to existing Logic users, but for people who are settled into PT or DP (etc) an Mac I can't see them dropping their current workflow just to get at a better Lemur. I suspect they'd be a bit ho-hum if there's no lower level core midi usage of it that allowed them to use the same device in their workflows. Or heaven forbid the device is a huge replacement for XSKey (you can only get one by buying Logic X or whatever) even if it doesn't actually act as a dongle...

Mind you I don't take much stock in 'industry standards' myself, and prefer my current setup to using pro tools by far, although some of the higher end PT plugins would definately be nice if I felt like adding yet another system to my workflow someday.

Lastly, the environment is the one thing that keeps me coming back to Logic year after year (Hi Notator Logic!). I can understand that there are a lot of users out there who prefer to 'just write music' rather than spend a few weeks familiarizing themselves with the environment (and sometimes with midi in general) and it's nice that each update of Logic has made it easier to do this. But for those that do delve down into the environment and become familiar it's hardly an arcane science. It's a tool that I find indespensible on a constant basis and most longtime Logic users would agree. You might be able to go through on a case by case basis and find a solution in other programs that equals each individual usage of the environment (or a large majority of them) but they're going to be spread out all over the other app (or apps) and often require additional plugins etc.

This is why Logic always felt 'high end' for a sequencer to me, the flexiblity that it offered meant there were always multiple ways to do things, and this holds true in the environment. I would sooner have ApplEmagic support input & output 'midi plugins' *and* keep the environment than drop major functionality just because noobs have an easier time coming to grips with it. The comments about doing an equivalent drop of midi here are quite on the money when it comes to this isssue (imo)...

Well said my friend

[postfader]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Apple's not going to dink around with DSP for audio. There are some salient reasons why.

1. DSP require more money in terms of hardware costs and programmatical costs. You generally cannot just whip out your Xcode IDE and start programming to the DSP like you would to target an app running on general purpose CPUs.
<snip>

Thus we have the hardware and now we just need the software to improve. And improve it will.
<snip>

Audio guys don't need DSP anymore. Video guys still need RAID systems that sustain 320MBps but we are now hitting an era where there's more importance in delay compensation and editing effectiveness than brute strength.

Logic 8 will be 64-bit through and through. The user interface should be overhauled and very responsive on Leopard systems.

Mackie...are you listening? :P

I'm not sure the purpose of TDM is speed as much as resolution for DSP, e.g., 48 bit fixed point math - which for digital filter coefiicents - is an improvement over 32 bit float (though I don't think all TDM plugs offer 48 bit fixed resolution).

If you look in the DSP literature, 48 and 56 bit fixed point math don't even do such a great job with filter implemenentations/coefficients (compared to MATLAB as the benchmark doing 64 bit floating point math).

So I would conclude that (pro) audio guys can really (still) use/benefit from better DSP reolution, e.g., scaled up to a 64 bit float end to end solution that includes native plugins working at 64 bit float resolution. In fact a very few 3rd party plugins already do this internally, though they have to convert back to 32 bit float when they're done to pass the data back to Logic. And even with these 3rd party plugs doing everything internally at 64 bit float, we hear an improvement with DSP.

People using Sonar 6 in 64 bit mode under Windows XP64 claim to see a fidelity improvement with their DSP plugins. On windows, there is a separate Sonar 6 binary compiled for 64 bit. I would hope that by now Apple can build/compile Logic 64 bit; but I don't see Apple's audio unit framework has changed to support any 64 bit float data types. It's not clear to me without this kind of change, how the existing set of AU plugins from all vendors will automagically scale to working in 64 bit floating point resolution. So the AU framework may be far behind what VST 2.4+ is supporting.

Apple has not done well at maintenance/fixing bugs in Logic for native DSP (e.g., sample rate conversion). Load balancing, sync with video, etc. all need work; those of us who have filed these bugs and seem them languish for years don't have much confidence now in Apple's track record with Logic.

But when LOGIC PRO X (?) comes out (as this URL for a 3rd party text due in 11/2007 would imply), maybe it will all just work/be fixed, and even be completely 64 bit'ized:
http://www.delmarlearning.com/browse...sbn=1598633694

BTW - I think I have read that Mackie's Tracktion 3 from is suppossed to have a 64 bit mix engine on the Mac.

[valis]

Originally Posted by J-Traxx The Don

Well said my friend

Cheers, would be nice if ApplEmagic was reading too though

Originally Posted by postfader

But when LOGIC PRO X (?) comes out (as this URL for a 3rd party text due in 11/2007 would imply), maybe it will all just work/be fixed, and even be completely 64 bit'ized:
http://www.delmarlearning.com/browse...sbn=1598633694

The author has stated that the title is only stand-in and isn't related to an actual product name. The book isn't even written yet. That might have been mentioned in this thread even but I stopped reading about page 9 and just skipped to the last few pages.

[Roger Starr]

FUN, this thread is FUN!

Lot's of UDO stuff -> Unidentified Daw Object...

Some people believe in them, even some pics are supposed to be taken of this UDO from the Apple planet...

Roger

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally Posted by valis

I can't see a touch screen interface being the 'killer app' that causes everyone to decide on a new 'industry standard' either. It certainly would be appealing to new users or as an upgrade to existing Logic users, but for people who are settled into PT or DP (etc) an Mac I can't see them dropping their current workflow just to get at a better Lemur.

Hmmmmmm.....

That sounds a lot like the arguments people made against DAWs when they started popping up: a neat add-on, but nothing that would ever replace tape... (also reminiscent of the initial argument against GUIs, for that matter).

My biggest gripe with Reaper (as a casual observer of it so I could be wrong) is that it seems to be a refinement of (and lower-cost alternative to) existing DAWs rather than something truly forward-looking.

Ultimately, what might seem like a gimmick from our present perspective, or a Lemur-like fringe curiousity, will change the game. That's the way it works.

[Macaroni]

I wonder if any of us could have imagined that a cell phone with a touch screen would be that much different and/or better or more useful than one without?

After seeing the iPhone demo, I was blown away by the concept, and I had thought it couldn't possibly make much difference. Now I believe it will revolutionize cell phones, and other hand held devices.

I don't think Logic will be 'dependent' on a touch screen, but it will introduce us to the possibilities as an alternative, so everyone can ease into it over time, as they choose, while the paradigm shifts on many levels.

[Blatboy]

If nothing else, I'd love to be doing logic with a touch screen imbedded in my desk. A desk set up like those old cocktail table Ms. Pac Man games (Galaga and Moon Patrol too!) that I used to play in Pizza Hut in the 80's.

Now THAT gets me excited!

[Lindell]

I 'heard' Apple was working on a new super designed console surface to Logic to.





And the new name for Logic is of course 'iDaw'







.

[Lindell]

aaah yeah come to daddy

[antonbuys]

[QUOTE=Lindell;1217109]I 'heard' Apple was working on a new super designed console surface to Logic to.





And the new name for Logic is of course 'iDaw'


iWish you were right! Then iMix on my iSurface in my iDAW on my iMac in my iStudio (Apple's new range of acoustic treatment products, available exclusively in white, of course), using iMonitors and iBuds, through my iO!

Nice surface BTW. From where does that pic come? Concept?

[hmurchison]

Hmmm funny you should bring up iDAW as there is a new framework in Leopards Core Audio that is called Media Hardware Control. I don't know how extensive it is but having hardware that can be controlled (a la Apogee Ensemble) from the bowels of the OS can't be too bad.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Hmmm funny you should bring up iDAW as there is a new framework in Leopards Core Audio that is called Media Hardware Control. I don't know how extensive it is but having hardware that can be controlled (a la Apogee Ensemble) from the bowels of the OS can't be too bad.

I thought it was iLeopard?

[nikki-k]

I heard they were going to make children next...first model: the "iDontKnow."
2008: the "iDidntDoIt"

[jon2911]

Originally Posted by antonbuys

iStudio (Apple's new range of acoustic treatment products, available exclusively in white, of course)

Right, with black for only $150 more. Black is the new white...


(just poking fun, I for one splurged for the Black Macbook)

[antonbuys]

Originally Posted by jon2911

Right, with black for only $150 more. Black is the new white...


(just poking fun, I for one splurged for the Black Macbook)

And a black and red U2 version, for just $250 more. Of course, it is not compatible with any other acoustic treatment, unless you first install "WallCamp", to allow you to use non-Apple products in your Apple iSuite.

So, now, would that make my studio an iProject Studio, or an iCRAP studio? (Completely Reliant on Apple Products)?

That's an idea... iCRAP certification...

[just.sounds]

[QUOTE=antonbuys;1218002]

Originally Posted by Lindell

I 'heard' Apple was working on a new super designed console surface to Logic to.





And the new name for Logic is of course 'iDaw'


iWish you were right! Then iMix on my iSurface in my iDAW on my iMac in my iStudio (Apple's new range of acoustic treatment products, available exclusively in white, of course), using iMonitors and iBuds, through my iO!

Nice surface BTW. From where does that pic come? Concept?

And you can store that in you're iRack (search youtube) :-)

[antonbuys]

[QUOTE=just.sounds;1219462]

Originally Posted by antonbuys

And you can store that in you're iRack (search youtube) :-)

iRan after iSaw that one...

Ah, well, back to topic...

Logic Pro 8 would be welcome, if for no other reason that it is time for an update. 2 years, and all that. Would love to see what Apple did with it. But I must say, it is one of the most debated updates in the last months...

"Pro Tools Killer Pro"
"The Great Update that never was - Pro"
"Garageband Pro"
"SoundTrack Logic Pro"
"Multi Touch Pro"

I think, somewhere, secretly, Steve is reading all this, and cracking himself up... "So what misinformation can I feed these rumor mungers today?" "Lessee, the iTouch iDAW controller can control only iDAW, nothing else, and iDAW cannot work without iTouch... Oh, wait, Native Instruments already did that with the original KORE..."

Anton
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KORE - The world's bigest dongle, for software that I don't know what to do with, now that all NI products have a browser.... I got KORE'd!

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by antonbuys

Ah, well, back to topic...

Logic Pro 8 would be welcome, if for no other reason that it is time for an update. 2 years, and all that. Would love to see what Apple did with it. But I must say, it is one of the most debated updates in the last months...

"Pro Tools Killer Pro"
"The Great Update that never was - Pro"
"Garageband Pro"
"SoundTrack Logic Pro"
"Multi Touch Pro"

I think, somewhere, secretly, Steve is reading all this, and cracking himself up... "So what misinformation can I feed these rumor mungers today?" "Lessee, the iTouch iDAW controller can control only iDAW, nothing else, and iDAW cannot work without iTouch... Oh, wait, Native Instruments already did that with the original KORE..."

Anton
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KORE - The world's bigest dongle, for software that I don't know what to do with, now that all NI products have a browser.... I got KORE'd!

Its easy to kill this thread if you want to, just so you know. You have to step up the game though and get some uncalled for name calling going, it will get locked and possibly even deleted.


Bring it on!

[antonbuys]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Its easy to kill this thread if you want to, just so you know. You have to step up the game though and get some uncalled for name calling going, it will get locked and possibly even deleted.


Bring it on!

Nah, what am I going to read, then? Got in late in the game... I mean, try catching up 19 pages of back-log... That's like trying to decipher the Logic Pro manual description of the "environment"... It hurts, but you gotta do it!

And, just now, we kill it, and then Logic Pro 8 gets released? We will have to start a whole new thread! Keep it, and we may just get to the Guiness Book of Records! Or Ripleys, or the midnight news in Poffadder (yep, it exists...)

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by antonbuys

And, just now, we kill it, and then Logic Pro 8 gets released?

Forget about it, read the 564 posts and get back to me.

[Jazzpunk]

It's been confirmed! The official name for Apple's flagship DAW will be called, 'Logic Never Ending W8 Pro'.

Catchy, no?!

[kosi]

what about "iDiot pro" ?

Happy easter to everyone !

[jDresnin]

Originally Posted by kosi

what about "iDiot pro" ?

One step closer to iDiot Proof.

[Logic G5]

5 days to go!!

Apple will definitely give us something this saturday at NAB, dont you think??

[Macaroni]

Apple will definitely give us something this saturday at NAB, dont you think??

Well, it's almost certain that the new Final Cut Studio will be announced, but whether Logic is part of that announcement is not confirmed by various rumor sites. Logic doesn't exactly fit the NAB scene, and I'm guessing they'll want all the lime light focused on the new Final Cut Studio on a dual quad core + Leopard.

[barryjohns]

I'm going to an Apple Special Event this Sunday at the Venetian Hotel in Vegas, maybe they will reveal something there.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by Logic G5

5 days to go!!

Apple will definitely give us something this saturday at NAB, dont you think??

Here we go again!