Levels in Logic: Mixing HELP !!

[Lefrançais]

Hi Guys,

I have quite good ears but at this point, I need technichal informations. (I don't know a clue about db's and signal/noise ratios etc...)
Here how I usually do:

-Drumz: I put eq and comp on bass drum, snare, eq on Hi hat, sometimes reverb then I route the whole thing to a bus: is it good then to put for example a PSP Mixpressor or Vintage Warmer on it ?
What level shouldn't I exceed for the drumz bus level ?
what level shouldn't I cross on drumz separate tracks ?

-Levels: when mixing in logic I always wonder if I can overload tracks and master. I mean if a track or the master bus peak a bit is it that bad ?
When I try to stay reasonable I always have a dynamic loss, comparing to hip hop and R'N'B fat stuffs. Even when I put a PSP Vintage Warmer or multiband comp etc.
How many db's should I let before I put the voices ?
Is there a plugin tool that could tell me if I put to much bass ?
thx for your help.

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by Lefrançais

Hi Guys,

I have quite good ears but at this point, I need technichal informations. (I don't know a clue about db's and signal/noise ratios etc...)
Here how I usually do:

-Drumz: I put eq and comp on bass drum, snare, eq on Hi hat, sometimes reverb then I route the whole thing to a bus: is it good then to put for example a PSP Mixpressor or Vintage Warmer on it ?
What level shouldn't I exceed for the drumz bus level ?
what level shouldn't I cross on drumz separate tracks ?

-Levels: when mixing in logic I always wonder if I can overload tracks and master. I mean if a track or the master bus peak a bit is it that bad ?
When I try to stay reasonable I always have a dynamic loss, comparing to hip hop and R'N'B fat stuffs. Even when I put a PSP Vintage Warmer or multiband comp etc.
How many db's should I let before I put the voices ?
Is there a plugin tool that could tell me if I put to much bass ?
thx for your help.

Because Logic is 32 bit float there are those who will tell you that it does not matter if you clip the channels, only the output. I am here to tell you I do not believe it because if you are using 3rd party plug-ins they are not all float and can react badly to too much signal,same wiith virtual instruments. And there is some question alsao about how well Logic's summing bus handles hot signals.

. So my advice to you is to turn on pre-fader metering so you see what is really hitting the channel and observe traditional good mix practices keep your channels from clipping except for transient hits. BTW, Paul Frindle of Sony, Nika Aldrich who literally wrote the book on digital audio, Tand renowened engineer erry Manning, all agree.
As for the output, try to keep it at at least -6 if it will be going out to a mastering engineer. Otherwise between -3 and 0db.

[Lefrançais]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

As for the output, try to keep it at at least -6 if it will be going out to a mastering engineer. Otherwise between -3 and 0db.

If I clip the output, to stay between -3 and 0 should I turn down the master fader or all the separate tracks and bus ?

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by Lefrançais

If I clip the output, to stay between -3 and 0 should I turn down the master fader or all the separate tracks and bus ?

If the tracks are not really clipping you can either turn down the Output 1-2 itself if you are mixing ITB or if you are going out to multiple outputs use a Master Fader object.

[Lefrançais]

Thank you Jay, I turned on the pre-fader metering on and most of my exs samplers were clipping at about +4 or + 6 ! maybe because I always put them at max level (odb) ...
I think I start to understand what headroom means...

[theblotted]

be sure to record at 24bit, then you won't suffer too much even if you go down to -18 on the faders.

the faders are dBFS, which compared to the old days of dB value is much different. i'd suggest reading up on dB values and gain staging. then apply it to your own gear.

it'll help you understand where the sweet spots are, thereby giving you better sounding mixes.

[Lefrançais]

Well, I did everything right looking for input levels everywere. Finally I get a mix that stay under -6db but when I compare to the other I did with master clipping and using PSP Warmer it's far more boring !! It's like I'm loosing dynamics and wideness.
I think I have too much to learn ... need lessons ! is there a french instructor around here?

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by Lefrançais

Well, I did everything right looking for input levels everywere. Finally I get a mix that stay under -6db but when I compare to the other I did with master clipping and using PSP Warmer it's far more boring !! It's like I'm loosing dynamics and wideness.
I think I have too much to learn ... need lessons ! is there a french instructor around here?

OK, two things.

1. Despite what most of the present generation seems to believe louder does not equal more exciting. And bear in mind that the CDs you like have been professionally mastered by a mastering engineer whpo gets it to sound that way with knowledge, experience and lots of VERY expensive gear.

2. Re: wideness in Logic.
On stereo tracks the Pan Knob works really just as a balance control so you do not have much control over where the track sits in the stereo filed. The Helper plug-in called the Direction Mixer is what you want to achieve better strereo field placement and therefore a wider mix.

Also you probably want to set the Pan Law in Logic to -3db compensated.

If you want to fly me to Paris I will happily teach you. Je parle francais une petite peu

[Lefrançais]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

OK, two things.

1. Despite what most of the present generation seems to believe louder does not equal more exciting. And bear in mind that the CDs you like have been professionally mastered by a mastering engineer whpo gets it to sound that way with knowledge, experience and lots of VERY expensive gear.

2. Re: wideness in Logic.
On stereo tracks the Pan Knob works really just as a balance control so you do not have much control over where the track sits in the stereo filed. The Helper plug-in called the Direction Mixer is what you want to achieve better strereo field placement and therefore a wider mix.

Also you probably want to set the Pan Law in Logic to -3db compensated.

If you want to fly me to Paris I will happily teach you. Je parle francais une petite peu

I wish I could pay you a flight ticket ! what is so disappointing is that I hear the gap between my mixes and big productions. But I'll spend as much time as necessary to know how to get these results. I don't think it's only mastering. I have to learn tricks. The thing is I have a couple of songs played on radio recorded in my studio (my bedroom actually), but mixs are just "ok".

[theblotted]

logically speaking (no pun), the more you hit the red, less headroom/moving room for dynamics.

wideness comes from knowing how to work pan and soundstaging with plugins and options in DAW. Ashermusic gave you a good place to start.

you want to make it more exciting sounding? give the tracks MORE dynamics (difference between loud and soft), play around with compression more, and then at the end get a good Mastering Engineer to make it loud for you.

i checked out your myspace page. i know quality on myspace ain't the greatest, but you can try making the mids/hi-mids a bit more up-front. right now the low end is eating up a lot of the sonic realty, and prob the reason why you can't push the 2bus limiter too hard. mids'll help make your track seem "louder and happening". are you running those samples out to the GTQ2 for beefening?

[Lefrançais]

Originally Posted by theblotted

logically speaking (no pun), the more you hit the red, less headroom/moving room for dynamics.

wideness comes from knowing how to work pan and soundstaging with plugins and options in DAW. Ashermusic gave you a good place to start.

you want to make it more exciting sounding? give the tracks MORE dynamics (difference between loud and soft), play around with compression more, and then at the end get a good Mastering Engineer to make it loud for you.

i checked out your myspace page. i know quality on myspace ain't the greatest, but you can try making the mids/hi-mids a bit more up-front. right now the low end is eating up a lot of the sonic realty, and prob the reason why you can't push the 2bus limiter too hard. mids'll help make your track seem "louder and happening". are you running those samples out to the GTQ2 for beefening?

For now I can't pay a mastering engineer, so I have to do it myself. I tried to mix my current song (which is a spanish song, sort of ricky martin style) giving headroom to each track but the result just does not make it. A&R don't care if I tell them I'll make it loud later . I wich i could send it via email, can I ? maybe you don't have time for that ...
Here is one of my last song I compose it's a slow pop "ballade", just check it and after I'll edit my post and erase the link: [EDITED]
Tell me about the mids.
I use the GTQ-2 only to record vocals for the moment, maybe I should record my final mix on it instead of bouncing ?

thx

[theblotted]

the tune sounds good. performance, programming, overall balance are up there.

your issue is real minor. it can be a quick fix, and you can prob notice improvement right away. you'll notice that your individual track sounds a bit flat, not too much dimension. adding reverb may help, but it's not the cake.

the whole idea of bringing down each track level is to give more space and texture around each sound. that's where headroom comes in to play.

then after each tracks are brought down (both tracking and recording wise), you'll notice that they're not smashed against the meter/DAW threshold, thereby giving you more dimension in each sound. "rounder" for lack of better terms.

bring up the overall volume at the end, not during mixing. this'll give you better results @ the end result, rather than compensating volume at each track. unless that smashed, lifeless sound is what you're after.

just try it. bring all tracks down to under -6dB, and then compensate at the master bus.

also, i think GTQ will help more if you use it on each track rather than 2mix.

another way to breathe life into the mix is using automation. give the song a bit more drama and emotions by automating volume and EQ/Compression. it won't sound as static. the emotional build will give that last 5% of "wow".

i'd experiment with different mastering tools that you have, to see which gives you best results.

g'luck.