two Mac computers or one? (macbook and imac vs. 1 macbook pro)

[dwitmer]

I currently to all of my biz on one computer, and all recording on another. I like the separation (the recording computer only has recording programs - keeping it simple), but I am having to replace both at the same time now and only seemingly have the money to get 1 killer computer or 2 decent ones. I am planning on spending about $2500-$3000

Should I get one nice Macbook Pro or should I buy a simple macbook for my biz (need a computer on tour) and a decent Imac to record on (and leave behind)?

I MUST have a silent computer because I record mostly acoustic music and in a close proximity to the machine. That's why I am leaning toward an Imac, but I haven't heard if the new Macbook Pro is silent or not? And would the Imac keep up?

Keep in mind that most of my recordings max out at 8-16 tracks... with limited amounts of plug-ins... though I want something that can keep up a little and change with newer software upgrades, etc.... something that will last a few years.

Also thinking of switching to Logic from DP. Anyone know if Logic has hardware drivers for the first generation Motu 828 (firewire)?

thoughts?
thanks,
DW

[JonCraig]

either scenario would work nicely for you, and all the options you mentioned are [damn near] silent. fwiw, i'd go with just the macbook. horsepower-wise, the pro & macbook are nearly on par. use the money you save to buy some extra ram, and an external monitor & keyboard for when you're at home. that way when you're at home, you've got a big-ass monitor and real keyboard (i can't STAND to edit on a lappy keybd), yet you can still take it with you when you need to.

i do all my web surfing on the same machine i run PT on, and have never had any troubles ('cause we're talking about a mac, not a pc thumbsup )

--jon

[Tibbon]

I'd just use one computer were I you. Macs run multiple applications fine (although I remember back in the day protools was a bitch about stuff like that, but i'm hoping that's all fixed now).

I can run Office, Logic, Aperture, and Firefox all at the same time if i wanted to and they don't mind toooo much. And my computer is old as hell.

If you like separation i'd set up multiple logins (name one music and one business), OR when 10.5 comes out, set up multple desktop "Spaces" for different tasks. That's exactly what that's meant for.

The reasons I could see for multiple computers would be as follows however:

- Running one system for PT, and one for Gigasampler
- Running PT on one, and Logic on another, sync'd together
- Mobile computer with a Digi002R/mBox, and Mac Pro for PT rig
- etc...

If you have a large studio of course I could easily see a handful of computers (One for your Pt rig, a backup for the PT rig, a mobile one for around the studio, a lounge computer, business office computer, SSL computer, 10 computers for DVZ, C64 for when Timbaland comes in and wants to rip off people, etc...), but it sounds like you have a nice and modest home setup (which there is of course nothing wrong with).

I'd go with one computer and do it right. Logic mainly just uses whatever drivers OS X is cool with running in Core Audio (asides from Digi TDM stuff of course).

[halcyo]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

C64 for when Timbaland comes in and wants to rip off people, etc...)

....

[Henchman]

I do everything on one laptop as well.
Just get one kickass computer.

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I do everything on one laptop as well.
Just get one kickass computer.

see? it's fate, 'cause this is the FIRST time henchman and i have ever agreed on anything! thumbsup !!



--jon

[gear head]

i just have an imac and i do everything on it, plus i'm recording close to the computer also it's fine doesn't pick up any noise, because the imac is so quiet sometimes i can hear my hard drive but i just block it out with a pillow or somehting, also have my old ibook g4 that i use for porn and stuff

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by gear head

also have my old ibook g4 that i use for porn and stuff

That's a bit more info than i needed to know....

[dwitmer]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

either scenario would work nicely for you, and all the options you mentioned are [damn near] silent. fwiw, i'd go with just the macbook. horsepower-wise, the pro & macbook are nearly on par. use the money you save to buy some extra ram, and an external monitor & keyboard for when you're at home.
--jon

Thanks! that's what i was thinking too... the apple guy told me that the macbook doesn't have a lot of video memory (in fact, i think he said it has virtual video memory or something) and it eats up the RAM big time. Are you running an external monitor with you macbook? any problems? I already have a monitor and keyboard.... so it seems likely I'll go this route. i get the student rate on the computer, so adding the extra RAM to a macbook or just buying a macbook pro is almost same price (give or take a few $100). student discount is great for the PRO but almost nothing on just macbook. weird.

thanks again,
Denison

[JonCraig]

the macbook has dedicated video processing, but it does (somehow) use a touch of cpu power--at least, that's how it was explained to me. however, i regularly do HEAVY cpu loads for ITB mixing, and have never noticed an issue. i also do some post production, where i'm playing a qt movie while mixing. never had an issue.

that said, i've never directly compared the same scenarios on a mbpro... perhaps it's leaps and bounds faster, and i dont' know what i'm missing!

if the difference really is just a hundred or two, be sure to consider other purchases you may have to make. ram, a new external 7200 rmp drive?, monitor, keybd, etc. etc.

be sure to let us know what you decide, and how it all works out!

--jon

Originally Posted by dwitmer

Thanks! that's what i was thinking too... the apple guy told me that the macbook doesn't have a lot of video memory (in fact, i think he said it has virtual video memory or something) and it eats up the RAM big time. Are you running an external monitor with you macbook? any problems? I already have a monitor and keyboard.... so it seems likely I'll go this route. i get the student rate on the computer, so adding the extra RAM to a macbook or just buying a macbook pro is almost same price (give or take a few $100). student discount is great for the PRO but almost nothing on just macbook. weird.

thanks again,
Denison

[Tibbon]

I'd get the MBP just for the reason of the expansion slot on the side. Apogee already has the symphony interface for it, and i'm sure that Digi will eventually have an expansion chasis for it. Should be much better than using firewire stuff.

It's funny, the way they were originally selling firewire it was supposed to be amazing, but it seems just as buggy as USB for audio.

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

I'd get the MBP just for the reason of the expansion slot on the side. Apogee already has the symphony interface for it, and i'm sure that Digi will eventually have an expansion chasis for it.

that's a fine point, though digi's expansion chassis will no doubt be a HD solution, which would of course be WAY pricier than the numbers that are being tossed around currently. nothing wrong with looking to the future, though!

--jon

[Spectacle]

I have a 15" MBPro and I think it's both totally portable (only four-tenths of a pound heavier and actually thinner than the 13" MacBooks), and completely do-able as your main audio computer. I would not have said this about a laptop before the Intel macs came out -- this is as powerful as I can imagine needing. Just ridiculously fast (the MB is pretty swift itself). Also some key things that you get with the MBP that you don't with the MB, besides any possible differences in processor speed:

1) a FW800 port, in addition to the FW400 (key for running both an external drive and an interface)
2) backlit keyboard (do you play live gigs?)
3) an extra GB of maximum RAM capability (never a bad thing)
4) express card slot
5) dedicated graphics (crucial if you want to use it for PC games in BootCamp)
6) a nicer looking machine (but hey, that's just me )
7) option of either the glossy or the matte screen (I prefer the glossy by far, but at least you have a choice here)

Someone mentioned getting the MacBook and using the money you save to max it out on RAM. Well, the max on the MacBook is only 2GB, which you don't have to pay anything extra for on the MBPro, since it comes standard. And you can go up to 3GB with the MBPro.

If you want to save the money you would by buying a MacBook, you might consider looking around for MBPro refurbs, as you should be able to get some pretty good deals. Just make sure that it is the Core 2 Duo model, as it is both significantly faster than the previous Core Duo and comes with the FW800 port, which the Core Duo does not.

Just some things to consider. Good luck with your choice!

[dwitmer]

Thanks so much to all of you. This is really, really helpful. I'll let you know what I buy for sure!

I won't be up and running for another few weeks... more soon!

by the way... you (spectacle) run Logic... I'm thinking of switching from Digital Performer to Logic... All my friends are going that directions. The thing is, I have a very old MOTU 828 (And a Focusrite ISA 428 with digital expansion card - I use it for conversion and light pipe it thru the Motu 828 - want to replace the Motu but not till I really need to) and I am worried Logic won't have a hardware driver for it.... Do you know if it does?

Have you used Digital Peformer? Is Logic easy enough to navigate? If you know much about the two, I'd love to hear a few pros/cons.

I also qualify for the Logic Pro EDUCATION version... which is only $499 compared to $1000. The guy at the apple store told me it is limited in that it somehow encodes the tracks with "made with education version" code and that if i sell the songs they can track all of that, etc. He said that some students just outright buy the $1000 version to avoid that... but I just can't see how they are different (description on the mac website identical) and feel like maybe this salesman is snowing me a bit...?

thansk again and all the best,
DW

[altinenti]

Originally Posted by dwitmer

I MUST have a silent computer because I record mostly acoustic music and in a close proximity to the machine. That's why I am leaning toward an Imac, but I haven't heard if the new Macbook Pro is silent or not?

So was there any answer to this question? I've been asking it myself these days as I see so many different opinions on different forums about it. I think most people tend to agree that the Core 2 Duo has solved some of the noise/overheating problem of the first gen, but it would be great to hear about some experience of people working in this kind of subtle acoustic situations with the 2 gen MBP and what they think about it.

Thanks

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by altinenti

So was there any answer to this question? I've been asking it myself these days as I see so many different opinions on different forums about it. I think most people tend to agree that the Core 2 Duo has solved some of the noise/overheating problem of the first gen, but it would be great to hear about some experience of people working in this kind of subtle acoustic situations with the 2 gen MBP and what they think about it.

Thanks

I've been messing around wit my HP and a program called "Notebook hardware control".
A handy little utility that give you access to the fan speeds,CPU speeds,Voltages as well as Videocard speed ettigns..
I have now undervolted my laptop to run at 1V at maximum 2GZ speed under 100% stress testing, with no problems.
Less voltage=Less heat=less fans=less noise.

You an set the the temperture at which the fans kick in and at what speed as well. You have 4 levels of settings for the fan. low, medium, High and Maximum.
You van set up prestes that you can change on the fly. I have a setting for music which is Maxiumum speed, but low Videcard usage.
And a game mode with everythign at maximum.
I also have a mode that's half speed (1ghz) for daily internet stuff.

At maximum setting, the temp doesn't get above 68c. At which point the fans are only running at 35% speed.

I'm goign to try and set the voltage even lower.

[Spectacle]

MBP C2D = No noise. I'm beginning to wonder if it even HAS a fan. No overheating issues either. Sure, it gets warm after hours of use, esp with just battery. But nothing abnormal. Not too hot to touch or anything.

I have never used Digital Performer, so I can't help you there.

Logic is, in my opinion, very easy to navigate. Incredibly powerful app, as well. Wouldn't hurt to get one of the books out there, like the Apple Pro Training Series or one of the Power! series books for it. Always helps speed up the learning curve. Various intros and virtual tour type things online, too, with a little searching.

I have a feeling that the guy at the Mac store is straight-up lying to you. It's the same program. I use Logic Express, and I got it at the education price as well. In fact, take a look at the spec comparison between the two (Pro and Express). It may be that Express is good for you. I'm a guitarist/vocalist, not mainly a synth guy. I use Logic mainly as my DAW, and it is still packed full of great software instruments, effects, etc. The Garage Band jam packs work flawlessly in Logic, and they have filled most of my needs for other sounds. And when I want something more, I head to Reason (through Logic in ReWire mode), where I can not only get loads of more software instruments, but I can also get fantastically realistic hypersampled drums in the Reason Drum Kits 2.0 refill. Since I never need to record using more than eight inputs at one take (my drum kit fully mic-ed up with eight at most), for me Logic Pro is currently an unnecessary expenditure. Made more sense for me to save the money and use it for things that Logic isn't quite as perfect at (such as guitar modeling [Amplitube 2], aforementioned Reason 3, etc.).

So think about it -- Pro might be right for you, but maybe not. Express is about 95% of the way there, esp if you're not really a synth guy. Either way, you're going to love working with Logic.

[KevWind]

I haven't used a Mac Tower so I cant speak to that But.... I now have a 24" Imac with the 2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo and 3GB of ram.. I record acoustic Guitars and vocals in the same room about 7 feet away. I also got the wireless mouse and Key board so I can start and stop recording to PTLE from my seated Guitar playing position.. the only noise I here is a slight fan noise from my my Glyph HD . none from the Imac . Cant say enough about The 24" screen it's awesome 1900 X1200 , you can get a heck of a nice notebook for what a a larger Mac cinema would cost. Just my thoughts

[Henchman]

I think that, unless you're computer is really loud, a long as your a few feet away, with the mic pointing away from it,you're not going to pick too much noise from todays computers from 7 feet away.
I did some recording in my basement last mnth with some bg's that were 8 tracks each, in the same room with a fridge.

Sounds fine.

[ambiguity]

I also qualify for the Logic Pro EDUCATION version... which is only $499 compared to $1000. The guy at the apple store told me it is limited in that it somehow encodes the tracks with "made with education version" code and that if i sell the songs they can track all of that, etc. He said that some students just outright buy the $1000 version to avoid that... but I just can't see how they are different (description on the mac website identical) and feel like maybe this salesman is snowing me a bit...?

It's $350 at San Francisco State University - and I think you can buy it online. It's identical to the 'real' version, except it doesn't allow you to upgrade... So if u get Logic Pro 7 Academic version, you won't be able to upgrade to version 8 - gotta start all over - which still makes it a great bargain.

Cheers.

[robd]

I bought Logic pro with the educational discount in Japan, so it might be different, but I was told that it COULD be upgraded and was identical to the retail version. (there was no reference to educational on the packaging or in the software of the one I got. Are there references on the US educational version?) I would be very surprised if it encoded the tracks with an "educational" tag, and even if it did, that seems like it would be pretty easy to work around.

[FFTT]

Many users prefer to keep their mobile needs simple and put their serious money into
a full blown desktop workstation.

However, it's not a good idea to put all your technology eggs in one basket.

The MacBook Pro and the iMacs share nearly identical components.

For this reason I would get the ONE computer you really NEED without going nuts
and leave yourself open for the next generation of 45nm Penryn processors.

The iMac 17" 2.0 GHz, 20" 2,16 GHz and 24" 2.16 GHz give you the same C2D mobile processors as the MBP with much larger internal storage options, dedicated and upgradable VRAM ( 24") and especially with the 24" model, an exceptional large display for all those DAW work surfaces.

Bang for buck wise, as your primary workstation it's hard to beat the 24" unless you
already have a great display and go for a MacPro Tower.

Unfortunately, right now is NOT a good time to buy with certain spring season upgrades due in March/April.

The right time to buy is when you know all your options including the newest models
and the amount you'll save buying the current models on closeout.

As much as I like the current iMacs, I would hold for the Quad Core upgrade which should happen this year.

The entry level MBP with 2 GB RAM will do everything you need to do without going off the deep end. Still you'll want to leave yourself room for a good fast external HD.

However, I would still wait until Apple offers them at closeout if you can.

Just a few things to ponder.

My daughter and many of her friends at college all have Apple notebooks.
90% of the time, they leave them cable locked in their dorm.

So ask yourself if you really feel comfortable carting around a $2400.00 MBP???
And don't forget to weigh in that klutz factor and the fact that Mac laptops
are high theft targets.

It's a really a good idea to buy AppleCare with any notebook, so consider that in your
budget as well.

You might also consider buying Logic Express to learn your way around Logic and then buy the full education version of Logic 8 once it's released.

Also leave yourself some room for a great mic, cables, preamps, a good pair of nearfields and so on.

You're going to get a much better system in the iMac for less money, so the real question is whether or not you are willing to pay a substantial premium for portability.

[Spectacle]

I have to respectfully disagree with the previous post by FFTT. If you want one computer to cover all your needs, go with the MacBookPro. As great a computer as the iMac is, you can't bring it anywhere. Even if you want to change rooms where you record something, it's a hassle. And someone's daughter off at college who only uses the computer to type papers and get on-line and therefore keeps it locked up most of the time in her dormroom isn't a good example of what those of us who use it for audio need to do. I take my 15" MBP with me everywhere. At 5.6 lbs and an inch thin, I put it in a neoprene sleeve and it slides right into a small, regular backpack I have and I hardly even notice it's there. Of course, even in college I took my laptop with me everywhere, as I was constantly studying and the portabilityfactor allows you to work in cafés, the library, etc. No klutz concerns or even a scratch here (knock on wood), and I've had it for three or four months.

Now, if you just don't have the money to buy the MBP at all, and aren't going to move around at all, the iMac is a great machine. But, as I said, I imagine that you can get MBP refurbs that are significantly cheaper than the new price, or the educational discount at least. Just make sure that it is the Core 2 Duo, not the Core Duo.

I can't speak to what Apple has planned for the next couple of months (no one can), but if you are getting the MBP, now IS a good time to buy. They upgraded to the Core 2 Duo a couple of months ago, and the computer has been out long enough to get any issues worked out (for example, the first ones had heat and noise issues -- they fixed that with the Core 2 Duo machines).

If you are definitely going to go the desktop route, perhaps you'll want to wait a bit, because of the rumors about the quad-core machines on the horizon. That said, your options would be based on your reasons:

1) you want the craziest, most powerful thing out there, and have to have the newest machine (but the Mac Pro is already a monster, so this would likely be a vanity point), or...

2) you want to wait until the new machine causes a big price drop for the Mac Pros (though I'm not sure you're going to get much of that, as they're pretty cheap already, and the desktops that they replaced aren't THAT much cheaper now, despite being significantly less powerful)

I certainly wouldn't say that the iMac is a "much better system" or even a better system at all. A fantastic machine yes, but better? The MBP is a plenty big screen, and when I bring it home, I plug it in to a cheap 17" LCD that more than doubles my screen real estate. thumbsup Just to make the iMac as good as the MBP, you have to add things on. And when you upgrade the 24" iMac to the specs of the $2400 MBP (processor speed, 2GB RAM, 256MB video card, etc.), guess what? It's $2400! So for the same price, you'll get a much bigger screen and 90 extra GB on your internal hard drive (which doesn't matter, since you'll want to be recording to an external anyway), all in exchange for...it not being portable at all. So you know the trade-off.

I totally agree that Logic Express would be the way to begin, at least. But I already told you all about that above. FFTT is also right that you might then want to go for Logic Pro 8 when it comes out, since we don't know what features it will have then. And it is pretty overdue.

So I'd say, go with the MBP now, unless you simply are never going to move the thing and just cannot afford it. If that's the case, then go for the cheap iMac without the MBPs specs. Sure, you could ALWAYS wait for the next step up, but that is a neverending game, and the step up to Intel Macs was the one that mattered. Also, new steps up can be buggy at first, and they've got this one figured out. On my MBP, I can play back dozens of tracks at once, while running organs and hypersampled drums from Reason through ReWire, while simultaneously laying down guitar tracks in top-of-the-line modeling software, and my machine is using 10% to 20% of its power. What more do you want?

[6strings]

Keep in mind that most of my recordings max out at 8-16 tracks... with limited amounts of plug-ins... though I want something that can keep up a little and change with newer software upgrades, etc....

Macbook should be fine then. Use the saved cash for software (or to save up for a used or refurb desktop machine)

Bonus tip: You'll want to connect to wireless hot spots on tour, and the Alluminum case on the MB Pro SUCKS HARD on reception. VERY bad! The Macbook, OTOH, seems like it can pick up a signal a mile a way!

Also, you won't feel so bad about the MB getting road wear vs. a $2000+ MBP.

[dwitmer]

Thanks again... this is so great.

I didn't realize that Logic had an express version.

1)
Does the express version allow you to run all the normal plug-ins, etc?

2)
Is it decent for mixing? I read something on a forum about it having no ability to pan the tracks R or L???

3)
Can you export the files as .WAV or AIFF (some of my friends will be running other programs... want to be able to import them into other systems)?

4)
what are the flat out major drawbacks of express vs pro?

5)
will i be able to use my first generation MOTU 828 with it?

-----

I'm getting the impression express is def the way to go for me.

thanks,
Dension

[Spectacle]

Here's a link to the Logic Express vs. Logic Pro feature comparison:

http://www.apple.com/logicexpress/comparison.html

What you read about panning was a lie. It is the same as Logic Pro. The only thing with regard to automation is that there aren't as many automatic curve options. But big deal, since you can do that all with a couple of clicks manually. And Pro has a couple of handy little editing tools that just help make things a very tiny bit more efficient, but I don't miss them.

Check out the comparison. It's pretty much exactly the same program, just without some of the effects and software instruments. But what Express HAS is plenty for most uses unless you're a big synth guy. It isn't relative to the price comparison. Express is definitely a significantly bigger bang for your buck. The step from GarageBand up to Logic Express is like going from my little league baseball team to a small-market Major League club. The step from Express to Pro is more like going from the Kansas City Royals to the New York Yankees. But, like I say, check out the comparison page for details.

As for wireless reception, my MacBookPro with its metal case has great reception. No concerns here at all that I have seen, and I have had it for several months, using it all over the place, in cities, country, small towns, Hawaii, etc. If there is a difference between the MacBook and the MBPro on this, it is likely minimal, and since it hasn't been a noticeable concern for me, I think it would be a silly reason by itself to pick the MB over the MBP.

The price difference if you don't have the cash? That would be a good reason. But check for refurbs, and see my comments on all of this in my post of yesterday 3:13 EST above for more on the differences between the two. 6strings is right, the MacBook should be plenty powerful enough for your needs as you have stated them. However, the other differences between the two models (I numbered seven key ones for you yesterday) might very well matter a great deal. For me, they were all crucial, so the MacBook was a no-go from the start. But you might have different needs.

I don't see any reason why your MOTU 828 shouldn't work. Does it work with Core Audio now? But check with the MOTU people if you really want to be sure.

Good luck, my friend, whatever you do.

[Geert van den Berg]

I think the current line of Apple laptops are pretty good, and rarely read anything bad about them. Also I don't think they'll be updated soon as they have just been updated. The Mac Pro is likely to be updated first.

Choose the MacBook, if you think you won't need the extra firewire ports or a larger screen. For most things, except heavy power use, one FW 400 port can be sufficient.

Choose the Macbook Pro, if you think you'll need the express card slot and the extra FW port or the 800 port. Or want the larger screen.

Offcourse the pro is better and more flashy (nice keyboard with backlight, very cool), but the MB is a good buy.

You can download the latest driver for the original 828, from the MOTU website, this has nothing to do with Apple or Logic. This will make it work with the latest OS and Logic version.

As been said by someone else I would not buy a MBP or MB and also an Imac, either one or the other, but the laptops will give you more freedom and that's a nice thing to have. The Imac will only be marginally faster, because they use the same processors...

You could make 2 partitions with OS X, one for business and the other for music.

[Tui]

Concerning Macs and noise... My 2.33 Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro can get very noisy, if I push its performance. Too noisy for using it to record in the same room. I briefly had a Mac Mini here, and this machine was not only surprisingly capable, it also seemed totally silent (although I understand, it does have a fan).

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Tui

Concerning Macs and noise... My 2.33 Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro can get very noisy, if I push its performance. Too noisy for using it to record in the same room.

I was wondering about that. Because in spite of what a previous poster mentioned, I had heard that the MBP are quite noisy whe the fan kicks in.

So, load up 15 tracks with plug-ins, reverbs etc, and see what happens when the fans kick in. I don't know if there are program for the Mac's that allow you to regulate fanspeed and CPU voltage. I just finished messing around with that on my new laptop, and now, I can have it running at the full 2ghz with a voltage of .9625
Lower voltage=less power=less heat=less fans=less noise.

Also, when the fans do kick in, I've got them running at 35% regular speed, and the temps still only it 67c on a 100% maximum load.

So, it's worth looking into. As I think the latest core 2 duo chips can run at much lower voltages.
Also check to make sure that the heatsinks have been installed proeprly, ot usign the globs of thermal paste that had been reported. It will all help to keep your MBP runnign quiter, even under the ost extreme usage.
It will also mean that it won't get as hot in general.
Under normal usgae my CPU teps hove raround 50-54C.

[Spectacle]

Interesting thoughts with the voltage changes. If I run in to issues at some point I might look into that.

But as I said, literally no noise issues with my MacBook Pro Core 2 Duo. And I don't think that our original poster is going to be pushing his machine even as hard as I do. I think he said 8 to 16 tracks, not heavy on the plug-ins. As I said, for me it's usually up to a couple of dozen audio tracks (nothing frozen), several midi tracks of different software instruments, plenty of effects, Reason 3 through ReWire, and Amplitube 2 or GearBox all at the same time, and the thing is hardly even out of first gear. Not that I would, but I could probably run Windows in Parallels at the same time as all that, while simultaneously surfing the web, composing a Word document, IM-ing people, and have Mail open. I don't know, maybe then my fan would come on?

I do not mean to contradict you in any way Tui, that's just my experience with it. Do you run hundreds of instances of PlatinumVerb or SpaceDesigner at once? Or maybe you have some really CPU-intensive 3rd-party plugs?