number of audio tracks on pc daw

[electric]

hi,
this question is really geared towards native pc users (cubase/logic/sonar)-

just wondering -what how many tracks of audio people are able to simultaneously play back on their machines (without plugs/synths) before running into playback problems?(eg clicks/pops/processing lag.)it would be helpful to be specific about 16/24 bit and 44/48/96k sampling rate etc. it may also be helpful to know what type of machine you are using.

for example:

can run around 16 mono tracks at 24 bit/96k or about 34 mono tracks at 16 bit/44.1k

software-logic platinum 5.x
processor - pentium 1.6 ghz
ram -512mb rambus
harddrive-ata 100
soundcard - rme digi9636

i am curious to see how many tracks people are getting without plugs.

regards,
electric

[BrianT]

Funny you should ask. Yesterday I was tweaking a dual Athlon with 2 SATA Raptors in RAID.

At 44.1K and 24 bits, I was able to play back about 220 tracks with 150 RenEQ 4 on inserts. This was tested at 1024 samples buffer size on 2 RME HDSP 9652. That's where I would sit if I were mixing pure Native.

Pulling the latency down to 128 samples for liveable (though still not great) latency has a big impact. Big. Though on that system, it would still be decent track counts.

My rule of thumb for Native DAWs, assuming you want to make music without tech hassles, is that your Native DAW should be able to do *at least* double the tracks and plugins you will ever really use, at a given latency. At least double. Sure, you don't absolutely require that headroom, but any device with as many variables as a desktop computer will from time to time unexpectedly use more resources. For smooth workflow, leave yourself as much computer headroom as practically possible. That's why I'm such a fanatic about computer speed. Faster means smoother and less stress on the system. Over time, that equals a lot more fun and a lot less cussing.

Sorry I can't give too many details on tracking latency, since I'm not a big fan of that and never do it. Fiddling with the buffers or doing the Direct Monitor workaround while trying to record real people with real microphones is not my idea of a good time.

And now I get a spanking from the Native champions.


Regards,
Brian T

[BrianT]

Oh, sorry. More specifics.

Dual Athlon MP2400+
IWILL MPX2 mobo
1GB DDRAM
2 x WD Raptor on Silicon Image SATA card
2 x RME HDSP 9652

One other thing. There are large differences in performance between:

1. A given CPU on different chipsets

2. A given chipset on different brand motherboards

3. Identical system hardware set up by different people. For instance, which PCI slot sare the various cards in, sharing which IRQs , from system to system? One guy's rig runs like clockwork, while another guy who thinks he has the same setup has a system that's always giving him grief. It's the same hardware maybe, but he has the PCI cards in different slots, different driver revs, he installed the OS/drivers/hardware/apps in the wrong order, etc. Often simply the order of OS/driver installation can have a mjor impact.

So I'm cautioning you against assuming hardware list "A" will give you the same results as person "A" gets. Frankly, it looks like your system is underperforming, for that hardware. I think putting together a PC is pretty easy, once you see it done. However.......

Putting together a high performing DAW that is fully reliable, and by that I mean as reliable as an SSL and Otari 24 track, day in and out, is far more dificult than many people seem to think. The internet is filled with well meaning PC DAW noobies who are going to learn a lot in a hurry........the hard way. I sure did, it's just that I started a long time ago. I'm not slagging them, just making an observation. Add in the massive amount of technical voodoo info floating about, and you have a bit of mayhem.

This is largely why people get Macs, IMO. And with the G5 power and price, it really ain't such a bad idea at this point. More money, less hassle....most of the time. If I were still a Logic devotee (and I was at one point), I would have a G5 yesterday.


Regards,
Brian T

[electric]

great info brian. what digital workstation software were you using? you are totally right about the repeatable performance issue between pc's that are not setup exactly alike. i was hoping to get a really general idea by people chiming in. your system seems very capable.

also- are all of your harddrives serial ata? i thought serial ata had lower bandwidth than ata 100?

anyone else have any input?

regards,
jon

[jdier]

I have done 36 mono tracks at 24/44.1 with no problems at all (even done it while overdubbing.)

Sonar 2.2
Dual amd 2400
gig of ram
two 80gb WD drives with 8mb cache

[SureShotStudio]

hi,

i run an pc with - piv 2.4ghz
- asus mobo p4b533
- 512 ddr ram
- 2x 20gb hdd seagate
- 1x 80 gb hdd maxtor
- rme multiface soundcard

and it can cope easily with playing back 64 24bit/44.1khz tracks while recording 16 tracks. if i do this the cpu meter hardly registers(3-4%) and the disk activity meter is then at about 15%. I run nuendo 2.1 btw. but i have to say that i tweaked this pc a bit and i chose parts on the basis that they were reliable. i only install stuff i need and i turned all the stuff i dont need off (like graphics and some background services) This baby has been very reliable the only times it becomes unreliable is when the load from plugins becomes too much but it never crashes just becomes very slow. there is a lot of info on the web on how to tweak your pc for audio. do a search at google.

[electric]

anyone out there recording on native pc at 24 bit/96k?
how many tracks are you seeing before hitting the wall?

[jbuntz]

In other words, if you computer was made within the last year, it's not a concern. Wav playback is a tiny chunk of processing power compared with plugins....especially reverbs (convolution is even worse than most) and emulation software.

[Roland]

Originally posted by electric
anyone out there recording on native pc at 24 bit/96k?
how many tracks are you seeing before hitting the wall?

Funnily enough tonight I was demonstating my Pyramix system to a friend who is considring one and for fun I recorded 48 tracks at 96khz 24bit onto a standard Maxtor 133 7200rpm drive. I wouldn't feel happy about doing this on a critical live event, but it seemed to perform alright.

By my guesstimate 96khz at 24bit is using about 1/4 meg a sec. Standard IDE drives usually quote 40 meg a second throughput, but in real terms I doubt they could do much more than about 15meg per second. That would be in line with my 48 tracks (approx 12 meg/sec?). This then assumes no fragmentation or edits. I also have video editing system where we are working at about 4.5meg/sec sustained on an IDE (I know from experience that much more than this gets unstable) so that would suggest around 20-24 tracks stable.

If you plan to do large track counts and the material is critical, I would certainly look at Serial ATA or SCSI and possibly raid configurations.


Regards


Roland

P.S. I'm using 800FSB MSI motherboard, Pentium 2.4, I gig ram. Drives (audio only) are 80 and 200 gigabyte.

[AlphaDingo]

anyone out there recording on native pc at 24 bit/96k?

I did a test in logic using a maxtor 80 gig with 8mb cache and got 16 tracks of playbay at 24/96. I just got a serial ata drive that I havn't tested yet but I'm expecting maybe 24 tracks!?