How to rebuild a sustainable music economy

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by Murray

No I can't.

The trouble is, no one is making anything because everyone is robbing everything.

I just learned that yesterday from someone talking/blogging/posting somewhere on the internet.

that's what I thought.

[jimmyboy7]

Originally Posted by rack gear

I'd love to know who they are. Not that LA is always creating new scenes, but it's seen it's share. I'm just not finding much inspiring in the Silver Lake / Echo Park scene and that's probably the most happening.

I see it here in Arizona, the kind of clients I have been getting are young and talented, great writing, very much hybrids if genres and not looking ringer signed but to start a movement that is based on live performance.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by jimmyboy7

I see it here in Arizona, the kind of clients I have been getting are young and talented, great writing, very much hybrids if genres and not looking ringer signed but to start a movement that is based on live performance.

I'm genuinely curious, any examples, links, band names?

[Murray]

Originally Posted by rack gear

that's what I thought.

Why don't you explain to the OP what a band should do (to get paid and make a living) when they form and start to play live gigs, which essentially has been the same conundrum for decades (long before the internet)?

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Murray

You have no problem with him and his "you don't know shit" attitude?

I sure you know 'shit', but I'd like to know how long and how much full time music experience you have.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by Murray

Why don't you explain to the OP what a band should do (to get paid and make a living) when they form and start to play live gigs, which essentially has been the same conundrum for decades (long before the internet)?

there are plenty of bands who are studio only projects... XTC comes to mind.

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by rack gear

I'd love to know who they are. Not that LA is always creating new scenes, but it's seen it's share. I'm just not finding much inspiring in the Silver Lake / Echo Park scene and that's probably the most happening.

What kind of music do you like? What do you find inspiring? I find tons of inspiring stuff happening all of the time, but that's just my personal tastes and yours might be different.

[Murray]

Originally Posted by rack gear

there are plenty of bands who are studio only projects... XTC comes to mind.

Studio only? How is that relevant?

XTC? They are an old band that finally broke up in 2005.

Okay, that's what I thought.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Murray

Studio only? How is that relevant?

Because you brought up the issue of playing live.

[jimmyboy7]

Originally Posted by rack gear

I'm genuinely curious, any examples, links, band names?

Matt Lincoln, Explicit, Shy's Limit, Tre Je Vu, Trisha Montgomery, Nowhere Man and a Whiskey Girl

Matt Lincoln is on my website

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by Murray

Studio only? How is that relevant?

XTC? They are an old band that finally broke up in 2005.

Besides, XTC gigged for many years. I played quite a few with them.

[flatfinger]

Steely Dan : Road Warriors???

[guitarmike]

Originally Posted by Soundseed

What this says is that live music at the grass roots won't survive if a market economy applies to the people who make the music. If that's a worst case scenario, maybe it should be allowed to die out in its current form.

Here's a scenario.

A city with a fairly thriving "no pay" music scene decides that as a condition of granting licenses to bars used as venues, musicians have to be paid at least minimum wage from load in to load out - typically 6 hours - around £35 per musician.

There are 40 bars across the city that do gigs, ranging from 1 or 2 bands on one night a week, to 4 bands on the bill every night of the week. The new licensing condition has a dramatic effect - over the period of a few months, almost all of the venues stop running gigs.

However, this sudden shakedown reveals that there is a core audience for new music - not just friends and family - people who actually want to hear new acts. So a small number of the venues, maybe 3 or 4 actually find themselves getting much busier, because the custom which was once spread across 40 venues is now focused on just 3 or 4.

These venues realise pretty quickly that their commercial interests are served by putting on the best local acts - they can't just bang on any band, because if the music isn't good, their customers just head to the competition. In fact, things like the quality of their PA, sound engineer, light show and the bands' stage shows actually start to become a factor, because the core customer base is actually quite discriminating.

And its not just music consumers that frequent these bars - they are the natural destination for aspiring and established music business people - managers, labels, talent scouts, promoters, bloggers, music journalists, studio owners - limited choice has distilled a concentrated music scene - this is where music biz people go to do their out of office hours work.

For bands and artists, there is a harsh truth to be faced - it is now really, really difficult to get gigs. These venues are booking the pick of the crop, and since the days of 4 bands on the bill are long gone, they're expected to have sufficient material and stamina to play longer sets. And again, they aren't just playing to their mates - this is an audience which critically engages. Getting a gig requires persistence, determination, and talent. There is now a barrier to entry.

Local rehearsal and recording studios start to notice a pronounced pickup in business - acts are starting to compete: they want to be better rehearsed; they want quality recordings which showcase their songs and ability to perform. Plus, local studio owners are known for being tipsters, spotting promising acts before they get anywhere near a stage and putting a good word in where it's merited.

For acts that get booked, there are obvious benefits - they enjoy a higher profile because the venues actively market and promote. They play to decent audiences who engage with new music, and generate word of mouth. They have a good chance of being exposed to music business people. If their show goes well they'll get repeat bookings. Going through a qualitative filter makes it easier to get shows out of town, festival slots, and showcase events. And of course, they get paid.

The flip side of this reveals something we all know to be true - the majority of acts just don't make the grade. They might get gigs in unlicensed premises like cafes or community halls, but there is now a barrier to entry at the point that music first intersects with commercial exploitation. And rightly so. Frankly, who cares if people with little or no talent can't get gigs any more?

A lot of posts in response to this idea seem to interpret it as meaning that all bands should be paid. If you've read this far, it should be plain that what I am saying is let the market decide. I think the market would decide there are far too many bands; far too many gigs and far too many venues.

So its really simple: if you let the market decide, there will be precisely the number of venues, running precisely the number of gigs, and paying precisely the number of musicians that the local economy can support.

And since the basis of the market economy is competition, what you can predict with a fair degree of certainty is that what the live music consumer will get, is the best local venues, putting on the best local acts.

Surely that has to be a good thing?

This is exactly what the cover band scene in Milwaukee needs. There are 30 or so mediocre bands playing the same music in the same clubs for the same money. Not one of these bands has much of a following because they do not offer anything special to their potential fans. The music is blah and their stage show is the same.

The top bands in the area play some of the same but they offer variety the other bands do not and have a dynamic front person that draws in the crowd. It is interesting that the 30 bands copy each other and not the top bands, you'd think they would want to copy success.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by guitarmike

...The top bands in the area play some of the same but they offer variety the other bands do not and have a dynamic front person that draws in the crowd. It is interesting that the 30 bands copy each other and not the top bands, you'd think they would want to copy success.

I've been watching the poser syndrome for my entire career. I think our biggest problem to overcome is that because of it most people no longer expect live music to be any good unless they go to a stadium and pay $100 a ticket.

That was very much not the case at one time.

[dan p]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I've been watching the poser syndrome for my entire career. I think our biggest problem to overcome is that because of it most people no longer expect live music to be any good unless they go to a stadium and pay $100 a ticket.

That was very much not the case at one time.

You are treated like the hired help and they/venues are surprised when you are above average,
A job in the music business?
Not playing live unless you are touring with big names or are in a different tier altogether.I'd call them the 1% in the music business.
Now who sold the most records this year to date?Adele finally broke a million
and the only artist to do so.
Singles are what people download/Rip.
Now Spotify has made money for the labels but artists have been cheapened further especially writers.
When I address BMI on issues I always rep myself as Publisher because even your PRO looks down on dealing with writers.

[jordanvoth]

My uneducated guess...

Every year it seems there is an artist the public opens their wallets to, last year we had Adele. Whether you think she's good or not is irrelevant (not my cup of tea personally), she is irrefutably talented. The public values music the same, if not even more so and the demand for more music has likely increased due to music being constantly available via an Ipod. Never before have people CONSTANTLY had a library of thousands of songs in their pocket. Whether the artist uses pitch correction or editing is not an indication of talent or lack thereof but the public can sense an artist that is genuinely talented versus an artist who may be riding a wave of trendy sounds and heavy reliance on enhancement to produce their recorded music. Where talentless starts and artists merit ends is a subjective point but I think if we polled listeners we'd find a relatively consistent point. Invest in talented, hardworking artists and let them determine how their art is produced, this includes the mastering stage. Invest in new digital technologies, the CD is still 16bit audio files, I'm certain there are better technologies out there. Don't rip off the fans at live shows (play the singles, play well, make up missed dates). Make the music something worth paying for and people will pay for it.

[Ntk drummer]

Fair point. But another challenge is getting heard through the volume of music.

Even if an act is good and has something of value to offer, it would take years to build a grass roots following big enough to make any decent money.

The breaking through part seems to be the hardest. People will always value really good music and genuine talent. But never before has there been so much noise. What to do?

[Bob Olhsson]

The way you get heard is by putting on small mesmerizing shows that people talk about followed by bigger shows that people talk about.

Seriously, that's what it has always been about. Everybody looks for a shortcut to this but I've never seen any.

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by Ntk drummer

Fair point. But another challenge is getting heard through the volume of music.

Even if an act is good and has something of value to offer, it would take years to build a grass roots following big enough to make any decent money.

The breaking through part seems to be the hardest. People will always value really good music and genuine talent. But never before has there been so much noise. What to do?

This is true. For every new media opportunity that has sprung up, more noise has been added to the din. It's a given that tens of thousands of artists simultaneously promoting themselves across a distribution outlet to which hundreds of millions of people worldwide have on-demand access, will create some level of disorientation and overload which usually ends up with a high level of blase' consumer attitude. Ever increasing entropy is almost the very definition of mass communication across the internet as the system accumulates more and more content.

Further, it's true that the average music consumer now has something like a thousand songs in their pods, but a huge number of those songs were free-shared, and those catalogs are not dominated by unknown, up and coming artists. They're filled with legitimately successful artists from the past 50 years.

It's always been tough to make it, regardless of talent level. All of the new tech has made it no easier, maybe even tougher, in spite of the illusion of visibility and penetration that social media offers, because it offers that illusion on a very limited, compartmentalized scale that is easy to digest and to reconcile with one's desire for growth. And, playing live is less and less an option. Internet visibility will never have the impact of a live show.

[jordanvoth]

Originally Posted by Ntk drummer

Fair point. But another challenge is getting heard through the volume of music.

Even if an act is good and has something of value to offer, it would take years to build a grass roots following big enough to make any decent money.

The breaking through part seems to be the hardest. People will always value really good music and genuine talent. But never before has there been so much noise. What to do?

The smaller mesmerizing shows post above is dead on. Do you think the internet made everyone want to start playing music? It's been like this for a long time, lots of musicians all trying to get success. It's not really a bad thing, like I said, there's room for lots of artists when you consider people carry libraries of music on them in their pockets. My biggest complaint with the way it is right now is that I buy CD's, and when I purchase a disc that has one great song (written by someone other than the artist) and several duds I feel like a sucker for NOT stealing it. Which is why I steal pre release and buy when it comes out.

[12ax7]

.

Reading this thread has just made me flash back on something I heard from a friend of mine who was a musician who spent quite a bit of time in the old "Eastern Bloc" countries back before the wall came down:

He said that in those days all the indigenous musicians of those countries were clamoring to get a record made (usually at great expense, adversity, and hardship).

...NOT because there was any money in selling records (there WASN'T), but because it made them a "real act" and got people to their shows.

What little money they made was made at their live shows, and tended to be a "bigger piece" of a much "smaller pie" than what we were used to here in the West.

Anybody out there who was around that scene in those days?

(I would think that THOSE would be the people with the better advice on how to handle such a situation.)

.

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by jordanvoth

The smaller mesmerizing shows post above is dead on. Do you think the internet made everyone want to start playing music? It's been like this for a long time, lots of musicians all trying to get success. It's not really a bad thing, like I said, there's room for lots of artists when you consider people carry libraries of music on them in their pockets. My biggest complaint with the way it is right now is that I buy CD's, and when I purchase a disc that has one great song (written by someone other than the artist) and several duds I feel like a sucker for NOT stealing it. Which is why I steal pre release and buy when it comes out.

This is nice, if only you could get people to actually attend shows. It's not a "build it and they will come" situation. People consume music very differently now than they did pre-internet. You nailed it. People now carry libraries of music in their pockets. Shows, great or not, are old school thinking. True, that live shows generate a much greater visceral experience than an iPod, but people, unfortunately want the iPod now because everyone is currently mesmerized by the on-demand experience, not live music.

We've developed and promoted shows with mesmerizing bands. Few people show up. Do that a few times, and lose your promotion money, pay the cops, get the permits, still have to pay the bands, make nothing from concessions, and see how quick you stop doing it.

There are real reasons that there are fewer live shows now than ever before. Quantifiable, financial reasons. It's nothing to do with some nebulous artistic shift. Suppliers offer only what people buy.

[Ntk drummer]

Originally Posted by jordanvoth

It's not really a bad thing, like I said, there's room for lots of artists when you consider people carry libraries of music on them in their pockets.

If you know of any business models or strategies that leverage this opportunity please share your thoughts.

To me it seems that they only way to make a living in the industry as a band is to become well known so that money can be made from headlining your own tours, getting billed on festivals, selling records and having content being published.

For a band to make a living you'd need about $400k per year gross profit after expenses which means millions in revenue.

The challenge is that the grass roots scene is dieing and there's never been more competition or diversity in the industry. It seems that there are less opportunities to make money and more bands competing and under cutting each other.

If anyone has a solution, then I'm all ears.

Perhaps we are destined for the so called music middle class to be amateurs and only the elite will be able to make a living.

[Murray]

Originally Posted by Ntk drummer

Perhaps we are destined for the so called music middle class to be amateurs and only the elite will be able to make a living.

I see this all the time about the "musical middle class".

Can someone fill me in on what that was before the shit hit the fan?

Some *specific* examples of who they were, what they did, and how much they made throughout their careers until retirement, and so on?

[Ntk drummer]

When I talk to older musicians who were gigging in the 70's, 80's and 90's they often mention that they could make a living gigging 4 or 5 times per week at clubs and pubs etc.

It might have been a mixture of covers and originals but a reasonably comfortable living could be made. Especially if income was supplemented with teaching. There were plenty of gigs and plenty of people excited about seeing local bands.

I don't think that the same opportunities exist today. Bands get paid almost nothing now unless they can seriously draw ticket paying customers. The cost of living has increased and musicians pay has decreased. So unless a band makes it big, it's tough to make a living at the local level. Hence the disappearance of a music middle class.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Murray

I see this all the time about the "musical middle class".

Can someone fill me in on what that was before the shit hit the fan?

Me probably, certainly many people I know.
I guess another term is journeyman.

People who are able to sustain a full time career playing music. Are neither scrabbling for crumbs, or living in mansions on the back of hit albums.

I don't believe in a class system, but I guess the term has become commonly used to describe professionals who are neither going hungry, or flying private jets to their sprawling ranch in Wyoming.

[unitymusic]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The way you get heard is by putting on small mesmerizing shows that people talk about followed by bigger shows that people talk about.

Seriously, that's what it has always been about. Everybody looks for a shortcut to this but I've never seen any.

I wish it were that simple... the truth is you also need investors that see a sure profit. Then you need to be willing to make ungodly amounts of compromise. For someone who takes pride in being uncompromising when it comes to their art, the only answer is to look somewhere else for a career. It sucks for the select talented few, but it's probably best for society to weed out the "rock star". We're on that path, I guess I'll choose to have faith that the decline of the music industry will not be limited to "amateurs"... oh to live in the glory days...

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by unitymusic

I wish it were that simple... the truth is you also need investors that see a sure profit. Then you need to be willing to make ungodly amounts of compromise.

I know plenty of people who haven't compromised their music. Sure, they aren't household names or 'rock stars', but they work full time in music and have a following.
It's harder to get going, and harder to sustain your career - which is what we are discussing. But not everyone has to compromise and not every artist needs a wealthy benefactor.

[unitymusic]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I know plenty of people who haven't compromised their music. Sure, they aren't household names or 'rock stars', but they work full time in music and have a following.
It's harder to get going, and harder to sustain your career - which is what we are discussing. But not everyone has to compromise and not every artist needs a wealthy benefactor.

At this point in my life I am convinced that the music industry is a bunch of bullshit. The only people that want an artist/musician to feel differently are people who stand to profit off of them.

I don't understand why anyone would bust their ass day in and day out to please other people and make minimum wage if they're lucky??

Any artist who deserves a career would be much better off keeping their money out of this pathetic dying industry and investing in themselves the slow way. I'd love to be proven wrong but I haven't been yet.

[Ntk drummer]

It's like pursuing music will be similar to athletes pursuing the olympics. A largely amateur pursuit that you dedicate your life to. Unless of course you win gold and you can monetize the attention and recognition that you receive.