No Sympathy For The Creative Class

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by aroundtheworld

Whether bloggers should be considered journalists is not at all simple, and the debate has raged on for years.
I don't necessarily object to all of what you go on to say in the quoted post, chrisso, but you're not doing anyone any favors by pretending that this is a simple matter. It's not.

The 'simple' aspect is what we expect of professional journalists compared to bloggers. And there are regulatory bodies in place to penalise professionals when they get it wrong.
I equally respect bloggers and journalists, but to claim they are the same thing is completely misguided. The number one difference is funding and logistics. For example, my national news organisation has a correspondent in most major capitals. Their Washington correspondent of five years, recently moved to London. Not many bloggers have that wide experience, and not many are prepared to move their families from one city to another, just for the sake of the blog.
Secondly, the point about the funding for long and difficult investigations was well made earlier.
Thirdly, bloggers routinely make unsubstantiated claims. No one bats an eyelid because we expect bloggers to do that kind of thing. We don't expect the BBC or CNN to make wild unsubstantiated claims.

[chrisso]

..

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by thehightenor

The girl with the dancing dog who won Britons Got Talent won £500,000. Which is a lot of money.

And the girl who won Young Musician of the Year 2012 with some really beautiful stunning cello playing won £2000!

Craaaazy.
Good post.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

You remind people again and again that the industry is crumbling, that there are fewer and fewer jobs for professional musicians and related fields, and those who are still in the industry are struggling and making less than usual. But then you belittle people who don't sacrifice everything to commit their lives to that troubled industry?

Not belittling them at all - they're probably smarter. I keep thinking that I shoulda been a lawyer.

I do have a problem with people who choose that route and then have the utter gall to express bitterness and jealousy towards those who took a chance and tried to do something with their lives to make the lives of others a bit brighter, despite the fact that it's generally much harder, has, on the average, a lot less financial return, and, far from being romantic and fun is very often a grueling and thankless job.

And towards those people who sit in their hoses and dabble in music and pretend that what they do is in any way comparable to what is done by those who have dedicated their lives to it.

You say that people expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter and yet you fail to recognize that you were incredibly lucky to have come of age in a time when the industry was booming.

That's a crock. I worked my ass off in a variety of jobs in the industry and made beans. Nobody ever handed anything to me. The only reason that I am where I am now is that my dad made a couple of smart investments toward the end of his life and a few years ago I got a modest inheritance in the form of a small guaranteed income. If it wasn't for that I'd be on the streets or dead. Probably the latter because jobs in music generally do not come with medical insurance.

And you judge younger people's decisions based on your own life experience without recognizing the fact that they didn't have the same advantages. It's cool, I'm used to the fact that the world revolves around baby boomers.

You know, what's ironic is that right now I'm in essentially the same position as you, trying to jump start a career as an artist in a ruined industry. Except that you have youth on your side and it's not easy for someone my age to be taken seriously as a "new" performer - which is why I'm doing (primarily) country now instead of the rock and roll I was involved in most of my life.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Not really - it's easy to be self-righteous and pretend sympathy. It's not the same as actually being sympathetic.

And actually being sympathetic is not the same as deciding to forgo your own interests, for the sake of solidarity with someone else, and henceforth altering your behavior. That's more properly identified as a "conversion."

[chrisso]

..

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Shock Value

LOL, and who owns the corporations?

Stockholders. People investing in the Market. I'd say people like you and me except that, despite being semi-Jewish I don't invest in stocks at all.

Yuppies. Old people. Small businessmen. Carpenters. Athletes. Bus Drivers. Union pension funds.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Shock Value

Wait, let me get this straight... You report me for a conspiracy theory while John makes them up all the time?

For all you know I'm Jewish.

And you guys have beat the Google conspiracy to death....

There is actually an explicit prohibition against discussing religion on Gearslutz.

The Google thing isn't a conspiracy, it's fact. It's been reported in the news. Google executives have talked about it openly. It's a major part of their business plan.

[Shock Value]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

There is actually an explicit prohibition against discussing religion on Gearslutz.

The Google thing isn't a conspiracy, it's fact. It's been reported in the news. Google executives have talked about it openly. It's a major part of their business plan.

Is there a prohibition against talking about Mexican, Swedish, German, Irish, Sottish, Afghanistanistai, Australian, Chinese, Russian, Americans as well?

Because you have been doing it yourself this whole time.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Shock Value

Is there a prohibition against talking about Mexican, Swedish, German, Irish, Sottish, Afghanistanistai, Australian, Chinese, Russian, Americans as well?

Because you have been doing it yourself this whole time.

I wasn't aware that any of those comprised religions.

[Don Hills]

Originally Posted by unitymusic

My only gripe is: how am I supposed to afford the pot and absinthe?

Cut off your ear and sell it for medical research?

[chrisso]

[John Eppstein]

Oy-vey!

Shock, I hate to say this but I think you're probably gonna get your ass banned. Jules really doesn't like that kind of thing. If so, just know I didn't have anything to do with it - I grew up around rednecks and I'm pretty much used to it.

[unitymusic]

Wow this is even more of a train wreck than usual.

[jrhager84]

This thread is a failure on sooooo many levels... Ugh

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Gearslutz App

[joelpatterson]

Hey, failure is the new... uh... new "model."

[binarymilton]

Originally Posted by ray_subsonic

Good Stuff. I knew you'd come good ...

Remember that many engineers and technicians (the ones worth working with anyhow) are also musicians and performers themselves .. So sometimes separating people into categories is arbitrary and doesn't actually reflect the reality of what's happening out there .. There are a lot of people who represent both sides of the equation particularly in the independent side of the music industry. Yes?

Yes. And on the same note, I think it's a shame that that article continually refers to "the creative class". What does that mean? It's a divisive noun to use. I don't know anyone who would describe themselves in that way! Makes it sound so self-important, as if a musician or painter somehow thinks they are at some kind of remove from anyone else.

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by rack gear

I think it sucks for guys like you BB, and my heart goes out to you. I'd hate to be in my 20's now trying to figure out how to make it work....If you live in LA, and I can help you, I will. PM me, and we'll have lunch, on me to catch up.

Haha, I wish I was still in my 20s, but I think we're actually close to the same age. Thanks for the offer though, maybe I'll take you up on it some time.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by binarymilton

Yes. And on the same note, I think it's a shame that that article continually refers to "the creative class". What does that mean? It's a divisive noun to use. I don't know anyone who would describe themselves in that way! Makes it sound so self-important, as if a musician or painter somehow thinks they are at some kind of remove from anyone else.

Yeah, just like it's so "self important" for the guys building the apartment building across the street to call themselves :working class" - what snobs! Acting like other people don't work for a living..... gimme a break!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

Here's another questionable notion presented in the article:

“Because distribution has been democratized by the Internet, we tend to think that talent has been democratized as well. If everyone can post their videos on YouTube, why are some filmmakers richer and more famous than others?" ........... “I think it’s changed the way we look at the contemporary creative class. A lot of it is resentment: Why are you up there when I can do this too?”

The author is missing the point. People really don't harbor resentment for famous artists after seeing amateur videos on YouTube. Instead amateur productions devalue "professional" productions simply by the fact that the quality of many amateur productions is extremely good and as a result are worth viewing. As the supply of overall musical product has been increased by amateurs, professionally produced product has diminished in value because it has to compete with other interesting offerings. The situation is simply dictated by the law of supply and demand, which is a natural law that has never been repealed.

That's nonsense and you know it. Or perhaps you're confusing some professionally produced "viral video" with the actual amateur done stuff.

Or could you be talking about amateur produced video of professional performance?

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

The author is missing the point.

no, you are.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

NOPE. It's completely accurate.

No. The FACTS declare otherwise.

Billy Corgan - No Money In Music Now

Any claim to the contrary is simply tech sector revisionism and propaganda.

Simply repeating a lie often enough does not make it true, although it may cause the gullible (or those with short memories) to believe it.

[Josh P]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

The author is missing the point. People really don't harbor resentment for famous artists after seeing amateur videos on YouTube. Instead amateur productions devalue "professional" productions simply by the fact that the quality of many amateur productions is extremely good and as a result are worth viewing. As the supply of overall musical product has been increased by amateurs, professionally produced product has diminished in value because it has to compete with other interesting offerings. The situation is simply dictated by the law of supply and demand, which is a natural law that has never been repealed.

Sorry but no; I've never heard any amateur musicians in any genre that I would rather listen to than professionals. It seems that with the free for all that the internet is these days it will just be more difficult for up and coming amateurs to make the jump to professional.

[chrisso]

The law of supply and demand really pertains to professionally produced content being widely available free of cost, usually in contravention of those professional's wishes.

[unitymusic]

As a person in their mid 20's, I can't think of a single more exciting time to be alive as an artist. I'm also broke and in a decent amount of debt that grows larger by the day, unemployed and all that... but the potential to do something really cool as an artist is there. I wouldn't trade it for the world, and I know more "amateurs" that I'd pay to support than professionals.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

You completely have the right to ADVOCATE your position. There is nothing illegal about advocacy. There is nothing immoral about advocacy. But in the final analysis your position is one of advocacy and not unequivocal fact. My facts are as good as yours and in my opinion my facts are better than yours. So I'll stick with my facts !!!!!!!!!!!

LET US PRAISE THE TRUTH AND THE FACTS THAT HAVE MADE THIS REVOLUTION GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrong. Your OPINIONS are not FACTS.

Praising the truth is the opposite of the nonsense you profess, in most cases demonstrably so.

The fact that you routinely ignore the truth does not make it any less true.

Billy Corgan - No Money In Music Now

The figures do not lie.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

That is your right to choose your music the way you want. But you don't speak for the millions of people who do otherwise.

Actually, the figures indicate that millions of people don't agree with you. Of the huge number (thousands and thousands) of amateur releases made last year, only a couple of hundred sold more than 10 copies, and of those most didn't break 100.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by unitymusic

As a person in their mid 20's, I can't think of a single more exciting time to be alive as an artist. I'm also broke and in a decent amount of debt that grows larger by the day, unemployed and all that... but the potential to do something really cool as an artist is there. I wouldn't trade it for the world, and I know more "amateurs" that I'd pay to support than professionals.

That's actually quite understandable. As a person in your mid-20s you don't have a lot of historical experience to compare to.

As a person in his teens during the British Invasion I felt the same way. As a person in his early '20s in 1970 during the heyday of psychedelia I felt exactly the same way. As a person in his late '20s in the late '70s during the punk rock revolution I also felt exactly the same way.

In the present, as a person trying to kickstart an indie career as a performer after spending most of his life primarily on the tech side of the industry I find the situation dismally depressing, with most of the avenues for advancement cut off. I feel genuinely sorry for the youngsters who will probably never have a chance to receive fair compensation for their work, which is one of the main reasons I'm active on this forum.

Opportunities for musicians peaked in the period between the punk revolution and Napster. Unless the damage cause by tech sector looting of music can be reversed the current generation of musicians faces truly dismal prospects.

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by Josh P

Sorry but no; I've never heard any amateur musicians in any genre that I would rather listen to than professionals.

That just takes us back to the whole messy debate over what constitutes a professional. Unless you listen exclusively to major label pop music, I guarantee that you have at some point listened to and liked music that was created by somebody while they had a day job.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

Figures tell whatever TRUTH you want them to. So I can see how you would want to tell a different story than me using your figures.

FACT..............................

I accept your figures COMPLETELY! I am just saying that they positively 100% unequivocally support what I am saying. The figures SCREAM that there has been a major BIG ASS paradigm shift! And we should be grateful for it.

Paradigm shift, hell.

Widespread theft is not a paradigm shift.

Widespread theft is the breakdown of society into anarchistic chaos.

Calling that a "paradigm shift" is like calling the Rodney King riots a "paradigm shift".

It's not a paradigm shift, it's a temporary deviation into lawlessness. And it can't be permitted to - and won't - last.

The only question is how much damage it causes in the meantime.