12th May 2012
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#2 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Oct 2002 Location: LA
Posts: 3,116
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I don't see where the casino aspect comes into it. She has an existing fanbase and this strategy worked for her. I think $20k was mentioned here before as a kind of bare minimum budget for an album of acceptable quality, so if you use that as a cutoff and look at the most funded page, there are over 200 projects that have recieved over $20,000 in funding, the earliest being in late 2009. So that's about 80 projects a year which is like the equivalent of several small indie labels. It can obviously work for an artist who has a fanbase that is open to this sort of thing. And out of those 200 and something artists (yes, I counted all of them, but then lost track at the end. I think it was 212  ) I have only heard of a few of them, so there is clearly an opportunity there for some lesser known artists, and it's not like they're all people like Palmer who built up a fanbase on a label before going this route.
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12th May 2012
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#3 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Apr 2012 Location: In an undisclosed bunker working on the music of the next generation.
Posts: 511
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Are you implying that writing music is like playing a game of slots or something? 
Amanda Palmer is talented musician. And she is able to actually connect with the kind of people that enjoy funding Kickstarter projects. "You are the media!" her slogan, is pretty damn powerful.
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freetard, esq.  Musician & Producer, Freetard Records | |
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12th May 2012
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#4 | | Gear Guru
Joined: May 2009 Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 11,654
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Palmer is just the latest in the line of artists who made their career under the "old model" and are capitalizing on that to do "experimental" business ventures on their own. It's great PR for her, she gets to be "indie than thou" and all that cool stuff, but the fact is she made her career with The Dresden Dolls who were signed to a regular record label, just like nearly every other act that's had significant success.
That Palmer was able to pull off a Kickstarter campaign says nothing about the ability of a band without an established international fanbase to do anything remotely similar.
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12th May 2012
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#5 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter  | Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard  Are you implying that writing music is like playing a game of slots or something?
Amanda Palmer is talented musician. And she is able to actually connect with the kind of people that enjoy funding Kickstarter projects. "You are the media!" her slogan, is pretty damn powerful. | perhaps you missed this in my post: Quote: |
Again, I think this is GREAT for Amanda, who is a truly UNIQUE and RARE artists to command this type of campaign. But it's my feeling that's what this is RARE and UNIQUE...
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12th May 2012
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#6 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB I don't see where the casino aspect comes into it. She has an existing fanbase and this strategy worked for her. I think $20k was mentioned here before as a kind of bare minimum budget for an album of acceptable quality, so if you use that as a cutoff and look at the most funded page, there are over 200 projects that have recieved over $20,000 in funding, the earliest being in late 2009. So that's about 80 projects a year which is like the equivalent of several small indie labels. It can obviously work for an artist who has a fanbase that is open to this sort of thing. And out of those 200 and something artists (yes, I counted all of them, but then lost track at the end. I think it was 212 ) I have only heard of a few of them, so there is clearly an opportunity there for some lesser known artists, and it's not like they're all people like Palmer who built up a fanbase on a label before going this route. | I hope it does work in all sincerity.
Are you doing one? Why/Why Not?
Maybe I'll try one, who knows. What better what to way get the actual experience?
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12th May 2012
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#7 | | Lives for gear
Joined: May 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2,064
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein Palmer is just the latest in the line of artists who made their career under the "old model" and are capitalizing on that to do "experimental" business ventures on their own. | Pretty much nails it. She's also shown herself to be adept at dealing with PR, promotions and publicity.
As for this being a new model ??
Think of some of the Artists you Love. Do you Love every one of their records ?? What happens to that Artist you Love after or when He/She puts out a Stinker of an Album/ Work/ Song Collection ?? How does this work through the course of a whole career ?? It doesn't really, does it ?? There are possibilities Yes, and there are Truckloads of issues depending on where you stand.
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12th May 2012
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#8 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Oct 2002 Location: LA
Posts: 3,116
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Originally Posted by rack gear Are you doing one? Why/Why Not? | No, because nobody knows who I am and I don't need any money for what I want to do to begin with. I would like to get to the point though where I could try it. If I got to the level where I had some kind of fanbase and I had a somewhat ambitious idea that would require more funding than usual, then I would love to try it on the right project. Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_subsonic Think of some of the Artists you Love. Do you Love every one of their records ?? What happens to that Artist you Love after or when He/She puts out a Stinker of an Album/ Work/ Song Collection ?? How does this work through the course of a whole career ?? It doesn't really, does it. There are possibilities .. There are Truckloads of issues that I see where I'm standing. | I don't think Kickstarter is a funding model for every album that an artist puts out, and people don't always have to be blindly funding something without knowing how it's going to turn out. There are all sorts of other possibilities. For example, fans could fund a deluxe vinyl release of an album that they already love (through CDs, downloads, etc) and with new updated art from a well-known artist. Or I think it's ideal for funding special projects that are outside of the scope of what the artist normally does. The great thing about it is that it's totally risk free.
The important thing to remember about Kickstarter is that it's all or nothing. It would be dumb to just try to fund every release that way because you're sending the message that if the funding fails you're not going to make the album. But in that sense it's better than a standard pre-order type of scenario, because the fan knows that if they don't support the project it may not happen at all.
So I think it works best when the pitch is "hey I have this really crazy ambitious idea that is beyond what I've done before and I need your help" and the fans who support the project should get special incentives that later customers won't have access too.
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12th May 2012
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#9 | | Gear Guru
Joined: May 2009 Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 11,654
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Originally Posted by initialsBB No, because nobody knows who I am and I don't need any money for what I want to do to begin with. I would like to get to the point though where I could try it. If I got to the level where I had some kind of fanbase and I had a somewhat ambitious idea that would require more funding than usual, then I would love to try it on the right project.
I don't think Kickstarter is a funding model for every album that an artist puts out, and people don't always have to be blindly funding something without knowing how it's going to turn out. There are all sorts of other possibilities. For example, fans could fund a deluxe vinyl release of an album that they already love (through CDs, downloads, etc) and with new updated art from a well-known artist. Or I think it's ideal for funding special projects that are outside of the scope of what the artist normally does. The great thing about it is that it's totally risk free.
The important thing to remember about Kickstarter is that it's all or nothing. It would be dumb to just try to fund every release that way because you're sending the message that if the funding fails you're not going to make the album. But in that sense it's better than a standard pre-order type of scenario, because the fan knows that if they don't support the project it may not happen at all.
So I think it works best when the pitch is "hey I have this really crazy ambitious idea that is beyond what I've done before and I need your help" and the fans who support the project should get special incentives that later customers won't have access too. | In other words, Kickstarter is yet another of those so-called "new model" things that really only works well for established artists and doesn't do a damn thing to help with the problem of funding new acts. In spite of the fact that various internet proponents present it as such.
Check.
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13th May 2012
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#10 | | Gear addict
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 479
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein In other words, Kickstarter is yet another of those so-called "new model" things that really only works well for established artists and doesn't do a damn thing to help with the problem of funding new acts. In spite of the fact that various internet proponents present it as such.
Check. | Found this: Kickstarting the Tunes - Gapers Block Transmission | Chicago
which lead to this band: the story
How are you funding and promoting your album? I assume there will be no internet presence.
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13th May 2012
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#11 | | Gear Guru
Joined: May 2009 Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 11,654
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Originally Posted by frednurk | Don't assume anything.
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13th May 2012
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#12 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Oct 2002 Location: LA
Posts: 3,116
| Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein In other words, Kickstarter is yet another of those so-called "new model" things that really only works well for established artists and doesn't do a damn thing to help with the problem of funding new acts. In spite of the fact that various internet proponents present it as such.
Check. | I see lots of artists up there who I have never heard of before, and artists who are not signed to labels. They're hardly all established. Obviously you have to have some kind of following already for kickstarter to work, but then you pretty much need the same to attract label attention these days too, no? I don't think anyone is claiming that kickstarter is a promotional tool. It's a funding tool.
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13th May 2012
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#13 | | Gear Guru
Joined: May 2009 Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 11,654
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Originally Posted by initialsBB I see lots of artists up there who I have never heard of before, and artists who are not signed to labels. They're hardly all established. Obviously you have to have some kind of following already for kickstarter to work, but then you pretty much need the same to attract label attention these days too, no? I don't think anyone is claiming that kickstarter is a promotional tool. It's a funding tool. | True.
The problem is how do you fund your initial promotion so that you can use the funding tool effectively?
The scope of this problem will vary with the region you're in. If you happen to be in an area with plenty of entry level venues for the music you play it's simply a matter of gigging a lot.
But what if you DON'T live in an area with lots of such venues?
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13th May 2012
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#14 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk | and there is a dark side... When Kickstarter goes wrong Why Kickstarter Is A Scam | The Echo Chamber SpringBoardMedia: The problem I'm having with Kickstarter The ugly side of Kickstarter | Hacker News Mightygodking.com Kickstarter still sucks... The Escapist : Kickstarter: Proceed with Caution A Whole Lotta Nothing: Lessons for Kickstarter creators from the worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter MILLIONAIRES beg for money to record their album | STUFF YOU WILL HATE Investor in Kickstarter, the Company, Decries ‘The Worst Project I’ve Funded’ on Kickstarter | Betabeat — News, gossip and intel from Silicon Alley 2.0. My Kickstarter Experience: The Good, Bad, and Ugly — Coffee and Celluloid Kickstarter: Great Idea, but a bad experience Story Games - Kickstarter/IndieGoGo, RPGs and You Why I Won’t Be Giving to Kickstarter Projects The Kickstarter Problem | Unofficial Partner Kickstarter sucks | Karmashirts.org I officially condemn Kickstarter. Suck it up, Warhound. - theB9.com - Hardcore, Punk, Metal Community and Message Board | |
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13th May 2012
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#15 | | Gear addict
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 479
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Originally Posted by rack gear and there is a dark side... When Kickstarter goes wrong Why Kickstarter Is A Scam | The Echo Chamber SpringBoardMedia: The problem I'm having with Kickstarter The ugly side of Kickstarter | Hacker News Mightygodking.com Kickstarter still sucks... The Escapist : Kickstarter: Proceed with Caution A Whole Lotta Nothing: Lessons for Kickstarter creators from the worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter MILLIONAIRES beg for money to record their album | STUFF YOU WILL HATE Investor in Kickstarter, the Company, Decries ‘The Worst Project I’ve Funded’ on Kickstarter | Betabeat — News, gossip and intel from Silicon Alley 2.0. My Kickstarter Experience: The Good, Bad, and Ugly — Coffee and Celluloid Kickstarter: Great Idea, but a bad experience Story Games - Kickstarter/IndieGoGo, RPGs and You Why I Won’t Be Giving to Kickstarter Projects The Kickstarter Problem | Unofficial Partner Kickstarter sucks | Karmashirts.org I officially condemn Kickstarter. Suck it up, Warhound. - theB9.com - Hardcore, Punk, Metal Community and Message Board | I randomly clicked on one of those. Here's a quote: Now please don’t get me wrong, I’m still a huge fan of Kickstarter. I think the main thing to takeaway is it’s a tool, not a magical source of funding.
They go on to explain the mistakes they made, and what they would do to correct them.
Why are you guys always so negative about everything? You clearly don't want anyone to succeed unless they are signed to a label, probably yours, so you can stick your hand in their pocket and instead of taking 5% you take upwards of 50%.
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13th May 2012
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#16 | | Gear addict
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 479
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein Don't assume anything. | So how do you plan to fund and promote your album? What label are you on? Who's the producer? Who's the engineer? What's the marketing plan?
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14th May 2012
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#17 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk I randomly clicked on one of those. Here's a quote:
Now please don’t get me wrong, I’m still a huge fan of Kickstarter. I think the main thing to takeaway is it’s a tool, not a magical source of funding.
They go on to explain the mistakes they made, and what they would do to correct them.
Why are you guys always so negative about everything? You clearly don't want anyone to succeed unless they are signed to a label, probably yours, so you can stick your hand in their pocket and instead of taking 5% you take upwards of 50%. | You may be confusing honesty with negativity, I'm just being realistic and sharing other experiences. Also, I agree with the quote you posted, "it's a tool, not a magical source of funding." Couldn't have said it better myself.
and there's this: | |
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14th May 2012
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#18 | | dudeguykhed.
Joined: May 2005 Location: Slum-a-ville, Mass
Posts: 6,459
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Amanda is remarkably good at manipulating social media to connect with her fans. I'd say that the money she raised was fairly-earned, although it would be unfair to dismiss the impact her former record deal has had on establishing such a rabid fan base.
In any event, having spent a fair amount of time with her (both socially and professionally on various recording sessions), I can assure you she spends a great deal of time and effort interacting with her audience, and takes those interactions very seriously. She's also very canny in these interactions, and knows how to maximize them. Her talent for this stuff is undeniable, and I wasn't the least bit surprised to learn she had raised such an impressive figure.
I don't believe this will be the future model for the vast majority of artists (at least, not on the scale Amanda has achieved), but considering the huge number of clients and acquaintances of mine -- of extremely varying degrees of notoriety -- who have, in this past year, successfully relied on Kickstarter to raise rather impressive sums of money, I do believe that this is indeed a very useful means of fundraising for contemporary artists.
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14th May 2012
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#19 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 710
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She's been touring her ass off building it up and working the social networks on an unprecedented level for past 4 years to get to the point where she had the fanbase...She built it and obviously has something people are willing to patronize.
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14th May 2012
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#20 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by sventvkg She's been touring her ass off building it up and working the social networks on an unprecedented level for past 4 years to get to the point where she had the fanbase...She built it and obviously has something people are willing to patronize. | and, good for her, a rare and unique artist.
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14th May 2012
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#21 | | Gear Guru
Joined: May 2009 Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 11,654
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Originally Posted by frednurk So how do you plan to fund and promote your album? What label are you on? Who's the producer? Who's the engineer? What's the marketing plan? | None of your business. You're a troll and I don't discuss business with trolls.
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14th May 2012
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#22 | | Gear addict
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 479
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein None of your business. You're a troll and I don't discuss business with trolls. | Neither do I. But that doesn't stop you trolls from asking.
One would think you'd want to educate all the inexperienced how to go about it though. All the "new models" apparently suck, so that doesn't leave (m)any options.
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15th May 2012
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#23 | | Gear Guru
Joined: May 2009 Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 11,654
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OK. The short form is that the way I'm going about it really won't do anybody else a whole lot of good because it essentially involves using contacts that I've built up in the business. If you haven't been building up contacts then it won't work for you. If you have then I don't have to tell you about it.
The one thing I could say that might be beneficial to others here is something I've been saying loudly and publicly for a long time - GET A GOOD MUSIC LAWYER! A good music lawyer will have contacts all through the industry - for example when I mentioned to my lawyer that I have a song that I've been thinking might be a good fit for a particular big name country artist my lawyer told me that he does, in fact, have a direct line to this artist's people.
If you can get an experienced manager interested in you that's good, too.
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15th May 2012
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#24 | | Gear Head
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31
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So Amanda Palmer has secured $671,289 in pledges, is that U.S. Dollars???
So if they get the album done with $50,000 does she get to pocket over a half a million dollars???
Am I missing something???
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15th May 2012
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#25 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by LCS.Productions So Amanda Palmer has secured $671,289 in pledges, is that U.S. Dollars???
So if they get the album done with $50,000 does she get to pocket over a half a million dollars???
Am I missing something??? | yup, you are missing a lot - read the kickstarter to see her obligations and how and what she has to deliver... Amanda Palmer: The new RECORD, ART BOOK, and TOUR by Amanda Palmer — Kickstarter
examples:
$25 5,356 Backers
{BACKER-EXCLUSIVE LIMITED EDITION CD} beautifully packaged backer-only version of the CD in a hardbound case. includes a 24 page art booklet. PLUS digital download & thank-you card.
$500 18 Backers • Limited Reward (182 of 200 remaining)
{CUSTOM-PAINTED TURNTABLE + VINYL & CD + SIGNED ART BOOK} A Crosley turntable (USB-fitted...spin it, download it! you're in the PAST AND THE FUTURE!!!) beautifully custom-painted by cassandra long, meghan howland and/or other official GTO album artists. along with your stylin' new turntable, you'll also receive: a backer edition of the album on vinyl AND CD, PLUS a signed copy of the art book, PLUS a digital download & thank-you card.
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27th May 2012
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#26 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter |
interesting quote from palmer this week: Quote: |
“i don’t want this album to be remembered as “the kickstarter record.” i do want this record to explode. and i want this record to explode because it is awesome.”
| in the end, we'll see how this pans out... and if it's really, in the end, any different from the NIN & Radiohead experiments...
the internet community is desperately trying to validate itself in the face of a decade of half baked ideas, unsustainable models, and a complete failure to develop valid new business models that work with "free."
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27th May 2012
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#27 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Apr 2012 Location: In an undisclosed bunker working on the music of the next generation.
Posts: 511
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Her KS blog has a pretty interesting FAQ that could be an insightful read for musicians who want to use Kickstarter to fund projects: Amanda Palmer: The new RECORD, ART BOOK, and TOUR by Amanda Palmer | |
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27th May 2012
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#28 | | Gear interested
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 29
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The nice thing about Kickstarter is that it's concrete and scalable--and expectations are clear on all sides. If I'm a young artist, I can probably get friends to chip in $2000 to press a record and treat it like a pre-order deal with some extra perks. If I'm a major label refugee I can aim much higher.
The suggestion that it's a replacement for record labels or a solution to the larger problems facing the industry is a little ridiculous though. It certainly favors artists who like Ms Palmer are exceptionally invested in social media, in internet culture, etc. There is a real problem with outliers being used to define trends. Most kickstarter users, of course, lack the attention resources Ms Palmer has, but that doesn't make the platform valueless.
In my experience, the folks running kickstarter are unlike many people at tech startups; they're genuine, non-cynical and have a long history of being sincerely supportive of artists. They're also candid about the fact that Kickstarter is just a tool, and not the silver bullet solution to better compensation for artists. I do appreciate that humility.
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27th May 2012
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#29 | | Gear interested
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 29
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Also those Crosley turntables that come with the $500 pledge are TERRIBLE. We used to sell them at the record store I worked at, and I would feel guilty every time.
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27th May 2012
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#30 | | Gear Guru
Joined: Mar 2008 Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,256
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by charmingtedious The nice thing about Kickstarter is that it's concrete and scalable--and expectations are clear on all sides. If I'm a young artist, I can probably get friends to chip in $2000 to press a record and treat it like a pre-order deal with some extra perks. If I'm a major label refugee I can aim much higher.
The suggestion that it's a replacement for record labels or a solution to the larger problems facing the industry is a little ridiculous though. It certainly favors artists who like Ms Palmer are exceptionally invested in social media, in internet culture, etc. There is a real problem with outliers being used to define trends. Most kickstarter users, of course, lack the attention resources Ms Palmer has, but that doesn't make the platform valueless.
In my experience, the folks running kickstarter are unlike many people at tech startups; they're genuine, non-cynical and have a long history of being sincerely supportive of artists. They're also candid about the fact that Kickstarter is just a tool, and not the silver bullet solution to better compensation for artists. I do appreciate that humility. | I guess we'll see if it's a model or a novelty like the NIN and Radiohead Experiments... the bottom line, is the bottom line... Kickstarter hides failure | Hacker News | |
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