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John Eppstein
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6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
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Music culture and the internet

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6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
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Obviously he has a point. The Internet is killing (or already killed?) the traditional way music is produced and distributed. As social media gets more mature, and as content creation tools (gear) gets more mature and inexpensive, the more radical this change will be.

Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you want to look at it), the world will not change back to how it was before the rise of the information age. Information technology has democratized media on multiple levels. It gives everyone a voice and a platform, and because of this has caused the market to become saturated with information. People don't need more content, there is too much of it already.

What people need tools to sift through this giant pile of content we call the Internet to get to the things they truly want. This is why companies like Google, who started with the simple mission to "organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful", has become so crazy successful. Google is obviously really good at this, but we are literally in the stone age of Computer Science. AI is so primitive, we can't barely emulate the complexity of a fruit fly on a computer. Yet this problem that Google has built their business on is an AI problem. Google's current search technology will look like a pathetic joke 100 years from now, hopefully!

Lets just learn to embrace that instead of fruitlessly trying to fight it, lest we look like information age neo-Luddites. The major problem of this era is finding ways to make information more useful to the world at large. How can musicians contribute to this mission?
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John Eppstein
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6th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
Obviously he has a point. The Internet is killing (or already killed?) the traditional way music is produced and distributed. As social media gets more mature, and as content creation tools (gear) gets more mature and inexpensive, the more radical this change will be.

Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you want to look at it), the world will not change back to how it was before the rise of the information age. Information technology has democratized media on multiple levels. It gives everyone a voice and a platform, and has caused the market to become saturated with information. People don't need more content, there is too much of it already.

What people need tools to sift through this giant pile of content we call the Internet to get to the things they truly want. This is why companies like Google, who started with the simple mission to "organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful", has become so crazy successful. Google is obviously really good at this, but we are literally in the stone age of Computer Science. Google's current search technology will look like a pathetic joke 10, certainly 100 years from now.

Lets just learn to embrace that instead of fruitlessly trying to fight it, lest we look like information age neo-Luddites. The major problem of this era is finding ways to make information more useful to the world at large. How can musicians contribute to this mission?
The new forum rules make it impossible for me to discuss Google in any meaningful way. Let's just consider my entire answer to you

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#4
6th May 2012
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Well Google is just a entity that implements a mission. That mission can be separated and discussed independently of the entity.

It's not Google that it important, it's their work that is. Rose with any other name..

Regardless my point is started to blur the lines between "amateur" and professional. I can listen to music from some obscure Polish band via the Internet. That kind of thing was impossible just 20 years ago.. Content was limited by how much of it you could store in a record store, and even a big one pales in comparison the information on the Internet. It's really, really a crazy different world today, even though it might not feel like it. One of the biggest changes to human civilization occurred in our lifetimes and we barely noticed it.
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6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by freetard View Post
Well Google is just a entity that implements a mission. That mission can be separated and discussed independently of the entity.

It's not Google that it important, it's their work that is. Rose with any other name..
That's absolute nonsense. Unfortunately the New Forum Rules don't allow me to discuss it.

I'll PM you a link to a place that will. Good luck.

Quote:
Regardless my point is started to blur the lines between "amateur" and professional.
Only in the minds of the amateurs.

Quote:
I can listen to music from some obscure Polish band via the Internet. That kind of thing was impossible just 20 years ago.
Erm, not really. There were dedicated BBSes for stuff that wasn't commercially available. Traders swapped tapes via classified ads in the back of enthusiast magazines. My impression is that you're really far too young to have any idea what really was available 20 years ago.

Quote:
Content was limited by how much of it you could store in a record store, and even a big one pales in comparison the information on the Internet.
Sorry, wrong again. My little local record store in Norman Oklahoma (where I grew up) could order me any record in the Schwann's Record Catalog, which listed every record released in the US and Europe, and probably anywhere else.

Quote:
It's really, really a crazy different world today, even though it might not feel like it. One of the biggest changes to human civilization occurred in our lifetimes and we barely noticed it.
Nope. Not nearly as big as you think it was.
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6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Sorry, wrong again. My little local record store in Norman Oklahoma (where I grew up) could order me any record in the Schwann's Record Catalog, which listed every record released in the US and Europe, and probably anywhere else.
My impression is that you're really far too old to have any idea what it was like to be a young record collector 20 years ago. Norman Oklahoma in what, the '50s, '60s? How many records were actually in print back then? Then fast forward to 1990. By the time I was 17 I was going to used record stores around LA at least three or four times a week, looking at every single used CD and LP in the store on each visit. There are tons of records that I would read great things about in books or magazines (or on the internet!) that were simply impossible to find locally. I suppose if I had thousands of dollars to burn and wanted to get into the whole insane Goldmine scene it would have been another story, but I definitely prefer how things are now.

Hell, I remember when I was even younger and hadn't gotten into buying used yet, I started getting interested in David Bowie, and his entire catalog was out of print on CD in the US! This was right before they did the Ryko reissues. But I remember having that experience many times throughout the '90s with different artists.
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6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
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I was around 20 years ago and the thing that's changed is that it is simple and more convenient than before, not much else.
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6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
...
When I first moved to CA in the early '70s I used to hit flea markets every weekend and look for old, out of print records. I never got into the trader mag scene but I had a friend who did, big time.
#9
6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by freetard View Post
Regardless my point is started to blur the lines between "amateur" and professional.
not really...

Average TuneCore Artist Makes $179 a Year...

Ted Cohen: Breaking Through The Noise | | midemblogmidemblog

Quote:
"The Internet was supposed to be the ultimate leveler, great music would be able to find its audience, the 'big label' gatekeepers would no longer control access to the masses.

It hasn't exactly played out that way. According to my friend, Tommy Silverman/Tommy Boy Records and the co-founder of the New Music Seminar recently told me that he did the math and only 228 artists broke 10,000 units for the first time last year out of 105,000 albums. That’s 2.17% but only 15 of those did it without the help of a real label.

That's not very encouraging to the other ninety-eight percent. While tens of thousand of artists are self-releasing their music, their ability to get noticed in a meaningful way is stifled by the sheer volume of music that is arriving daily at iTunes, Amazon, Spotify, MySpace Music, Yahoo, Rhapsody, Pandora, iHeart and others. Ten years ago, there were roughly twenty-five thousand album releases a year.

In 2009, it is estimated that there will be over one hundred thousand albums put into digital distribution. That's roughly a million new tracks a year, four million minutes of music, or almost three thousand days-worth of song. But, maybe, if I listen really, really fast, I could....nope!"
doesn't look blurry at all. looks like the web has failed to innovate a new middle class of professional creatives, but jaron lanier says it best...



This is what we call an EXPLOITATION ECONOMY...

Even Google's Own Chief Economist Hal A Varian thinks all the Tech Guys (like John Perry Barlow) are Wrong!

EFF’s John Perry Barlow is Wrong, says Google’s Chief Economist | The Trichordist
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6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
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again, nothing looks blurry here to me... there is no new professional creative middle class...

TuneCore Stats...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran kelly View Post
Glad this is picking up steam... Below is a post I made on tuncore back in January.

For The Record I like the service Tunecore provides . This issue is more about realities of making money in music.


How people use Nielsen to hurt musicians. (TuneCorner)


We should do a little math to get to the main "spirit" of Silvermans argument. I am going to take numbers straight from Jeff's post

Top 14 selling tunecore artists sold
6,375,000 Tracks.

Tunecore artists overall sold ( this number would include titles from 2007 so pushing the over all per title sales down . Thus the number would be LOWER than even what I am posting )
42,000,000 Tracks . Subtract the 6,375,000 tracks that the top 14 artists that leaves you with

35,625,000 tracks sold for the other 90,000+ new and catalog titles.

Titles published in 2008
90,000

Taking out those 14 Titles
The AVERAGE tracks sold in 2008 of every other title on tunecore was
395 tracks sold( 39.5 total albums sold )


for a average title gross of
$277 dollars per year. for all but the top 14 Artists

Keep in mind that was only separating the top 14 selling artists from tunecore from the general pool .. what about separating the top 1000 titles .. I bet at that point the average per title track sales of the bottom 89,000 titles ( thats the other 98% for those keeping track) would be below well below 50 tracks sold per year average.

Silverman's Point is still valid even if the numbers are a little off. If anything it would further support the need for a team. As Almost all ( if not all ) of the top selling artists report to Nielsen . Where as the lowest selling releases would skew that ratio even lower than the $277 per title gross above
#11
6th May 2012
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"While tens of thousand of artists are self-releasing their music, their ability to get noticed in a meaningful way is stifled by the sheer volume of music that is arriving daily at iTunes, Amazon, Spotify, MySpace Music, Yahoo, Rhapsody, Pandora, iHeart and others."

My point exactly. The Internet has enabled more music to be created despite the decline in revenues, because it is ever so easy to create and publish music. I assume you don't like this trend, but whatever. You going to tell people to stop flooding the market with music, so that you and the self described "music elite" can put out more records without competition???

Personally, I think that's a great idea.

As the self proclaimed lyrical genius of my generation, and to save the "music industry", I herby command that the only music allowed to be published is music that is published by Freetard Records.
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6th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The new forum rules make it impossible for me to discuss Google in any meaningful way. Let's just consider my entire answer to you REDACTED
To anyone: What new forum rules prevent us from discussing Google? I've searched this site and I can't find anything.
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6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Sorry, wrong again. My little local record store in Norman Oklahoma (where I grew up) could order me any record in the Schwann's Record Catalog, which listed every record released in the US and Europe, and probably anywhere else.
Feetard is discussing "information on the Internet" not "every record released" - two very different things that succinctly highlight the differences in today's recorded musical landscape.
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6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by freetard View Post

My point exactly. The Internet has enabled more garbage to be created despite the decline in revenues, because it is ever so easy to create and publish mediocre crap.
Fixed it for ya!
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6th May 2012
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To anyone: What new forum rules prevent us from discussing Google? I've searched this site and I can't find anything.
Any discussion of Google must involve their stance on copyright and we're not allowed to discuss that.
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6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by rhizomeman View Post
Feetard is discussing "information on the Internet" not "every record released" - two very different things that succinctly highlight the differences in today's recorded musical landscape.
Wrong. Read his post.
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6th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
"While tens of thousand of artists are self-releasing their music, their ability to get noticed in a meaningful way is stifled by the sheer volume of music that is arriving daily at iTunes, Amazon, Spotify, MySpace Music, Yahoo, Rhapsody, Pandora, iHeart and others."

My point exactly. The Internet has enabled more music to be created despite the decline in revenues, because it is ever so easy to create and publish music. I assume you don't like this trend, but whatever. You going to tell people to stop flooding the market with music, so that you and the self described "music elite" can put out more records without competition???

Personally, I think that's a great idea.

As the self proclaimed lyrical genius of my generation, and to save the "music industry", I herby command that the only music allowed to be published is music that is published by Freetard Records.
nothing new. hobbyists have existed for a long time. what's new is the decline in the professional middle class. the internet was supposed to create more opportunities for creative professionals, it's removed them.

it's called, the exploitation economy.
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6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
nothing new. hobbyists have existed for a long time. what's new is the decline in the professional middle class. the internet was supposed to create more opportunities for creative professionals, it's removed them.

it's called, the exploitation economy.
There are people now who can publish music to an international audience that did not have the ability to publish their work to a international audience.

And really I'm not going to separate hobbyists and professionals, there is no true separation, and any measurement you try to come with is just arbitrary. I don't think there is a musician out there is is like "herp, I want to ensure that I only make $5700/yr on my music and not a penny more, because I am a hobbyist!"

This isn't like medical doctors or lawyers where there is a clear distinction. It's just a self-imposed title that some musicians use to feel more important than others, but it is totally artificial.
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6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by freetard View Post
There are people now who can publish music to an international audience that did not have the ability to publish their work to a international audience.

And really I'm not going to separate hobbyists and professionals, there is no true separation, and any measurement you try to come with is just arbitrary. I don't think there is a musician out there is is like "herp, I want to ensure that I only make $5700/yr on my music and not a penny more, because I am a hobbyist!"

This isn't like medical doctors or lawyers where there is a clear distinction. It's just a self-imposed title that some musicians use to feel more important than others, but it is totally artificial.
What he said^ Rack Gear, the internet has created "more opportunities for creative professionals", but not in the way you would like. The ignorance rolling in this thread is mind-boggling. Ok, I'm out - time to work on some music!
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6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by freetard View Post
There are people now who can publish music to an international audience that did not have the ability to publish their work to a international audience.
and they can't make any money doing it. so what. my wife can also sell crafts on etsy, it doesn't make her a professional ceramicist.

it's still the same as taking the stuff to a flea market, the audience size although in theory is larger, in reality is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
And really I'm not going to separate hobbyists and professionals, there is no true separation, and any measurement you try to come with is just arbitrary.
that's absolute nonsense, there's nothing arbitrary about making enough money to support yourself and there's a drop of over 45% of people who are able to do so in the last decade.

No sympathy for the creative class - Art in Crisis - Salon.com

45.3% drop in musical groups and artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
I don't think there is a musician out there is is like "herp, I want to ensure that I only make $5700/yr on my music and not a penny more, because I am a hobbyist!"
right, and they if that CAN'T make more than $5,700 a year, than they'll STAY a hobbyists. the promise of the internet was to liberate people and CREATE JOBS for Middle Class Professional Creatives... instead the internet has DESTROYED JOBS for professional creatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
This isn't like medical doctors or lawyers where there is a clear distinction. It's just a self-imposed title that some musicians use to feel more important than others, but it is totally artificial.
Wrong again. Either you can make a living working in your chosen field or you can not. There's nothing self-imposed about having the ability to pay the rent.

Of course every delusional hobbyist wants to believe their on the same level as the pros, but that's simply not true. All this is doing is making the elite more elite, and making everyone else a greater have not.

This is the battle of the 99%... the internet greater disparity and less equality. Of course to the freehadist, everyone is equal when everyone is equally broke.

I'd rather see more middle class professionals able to make a fair living. But I guess you work in IT and not the arts, so you really don't mind if artists are getting screwed over.

It's fascinating to me the logic that says the solution to one injustice (record labels) should be met with an even greater injustice of people in a new sector ripping off artists worse than any other period in history.

Why do you hate artists so much and believe they should not be able to make a fair living from their work?
#21
6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by rhizomeman View Post
What he said^ Rack Gear, the internet has created "more opportunities for creative professionals", but not in the way you would like. The ignorance rolling in this thread is mind-boggling. Ok, I'm out - time to work on some music!
No. It's created more opportunities for hobbyists, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't be confused with a professional creative career.

loser generated content : from participation to exploitation
http://www.uic.edu/htbin/cgiwrap/bin...view/2141/1948
#22
6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
the internet was supposed to create more opportunities for creative professionals, it's removed them.
The phrasing of the above quote reeks of a deep bitterness, but I have to wonder who it's directed toward. Bitter at Google? Apple? The advancement of technology and communication infrastructure as a whole? Who is that betrayed the alleged promise of "more opportunities for creative professionals"? Who is it that made the promise?

I think it's all just empty bitterness. The advent of the internet age has brought with it absolutely untold and unmatched possibility and potential both for artists and for everyone else. I mean, really; opportunities like Kickstarter projects could never exist without the internet. You may have heard about How Double Fine Raised $700,000 in 24 Hours With Crowdsourcing, or how over $10,000,000 was given To Kickstarter games in March and April.

The internet has awesome power in the way it can facilitate the so-called "creative professionals" and human creativity in general.
#23
6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
The phrasing of the above quote reeks of a deep bitterness, but I have to wonder who it's directed toward. Bitter at Google? Apple? The advancement of technology and communication infrastructure as a whole? Who is that betrayed the alleged promise of "more opportunities for creative professionals"? Who is it that made the promise?

I think it's all just empty bitterness. The advent of the internet age has brought with it absolutely untold and unmatched possibility and potential both for artists and for everyone else. I mean, really; opportunities like Kickstarter projects could never exist without the internet. You may have heard about How Double Fine Raised $700,000 in 24 Hours With Crowdsourcing, or how over $10,000,000 was given To Kickstarter games in March and April.

The internet has awesome power in the way it can facilitate the so-called "creative professionals" and human creativity in general.
and people win at casino's all the time too, but do you consider that a business model? it's not like that model is proven to work... a small sampling of kickstarter problems and failures... the fact is there are LESS creative professionals, not more. that's a fact.


http://kottke.org/12/01/when-kickstarter-goes-wrong

http://mapager.wordpress.com/2010/06...ter-is-a-scam/

http://springboardmedia.blogspot.com...ckstarter.html

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3874151

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2...h-kickstarter/

http://fortressat.com/forum/45-commu...it=10&start=10

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/arti...d-with-Caution

http://a.wholelottanothing.org/2012/...ckstarter.html

http://www.stuffyouwillhate.com/2011...d-their-album/

http://www.betabeat.com/2012/01/18/a...ng-kickstarte/

http://coffeeandcelluloid.com/my-kic...-bad-and-ugly/

http://www.randallwong.com/2012/02/k...ad-experience/

http://story-games.com/forums/commen...ussionID=15049

http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/0...rter-projects/

http://www.unofficialpartner.co.uk/?p=836

http://www.karmashirts.org/2012/03/0...starter-sucks/

http://www.theb9.com/thread/870019/i...c3ec7cdebf73cd
#24
6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
and people win at casino's all the time too, but do you consider that a business model? it's not like that model is proven to work...
Outstanding success in any field is something of a lottery; whether it's a Kickstarter project or a record hit, there's value in being in the right place at the right time with the right message. But is reviving a widely-beloved creative project that the old gatekeeper-publishers were uninterested in solely a lottery? I doubt it. It was a harnessing of incipient interest, made possible through the power of the internet. The "model," such as it were, has yet to stand the test of time. Maybe it will prove possible to emulate, maybe it won't. But is it a new opportunity for creative [people|professionals]? Oh yes. Oh yes, it is.

Now what about that bitterness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
the internet was supposed to create more opportunities for creative professionals, it's removed them.
The phrasing of the above quote reeks of a deep bitterness, but I have to wonder who it's directed toward. Bitter at Google? Apple? The advancement of technology and communication infrastructure as a whole? Who is that betrayed the alleged promise of "more opportunities for creative professionals"? Who is it that made the promise?
#25
6th May 2012
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True creatives need should try to be creative with their business models as well. Crowdsourcing represents a tremendous opportunity to fund the arts.
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6th May 2012
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True creatives need to try to be creative with their business models as well.
they have and are... spotify, rhapsody, pandora, itunes, amazon mp3, etc, etc, etc.

maybe you have a better idea?

the greatest invention in the history of mankind has sent musicians and artists backwards over a 100 years, some innovation...

there's nothing innovative about the illegal exploitation of human labor for commercial profit, it's the oldest model there is, except now that model is

I still don't understand how the answer to one injustice is an even greater injustice, that's some kind of paradoxical, nonsensical logic there.
#27
6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
they have and are... spotify, rhapsody, pandora, itunes, amazon mp3, etc, etc, etc.

maybe you have a better idea?

the greatest invention in the history of mankind has sent musicians and artists backwards over a 100 years, some innovation...

there's nothing innovative about the illegal exploitation of human labor for commercial profit, it's the oldest model there is, except now that model is

I still don't understand how the answer to one injustice is an even greater injustice, that's some kind of paradoxical, nonsensical logic there.
While you were complaining here (that must really have helped your bottom line), running around like Chicken Little, you seem to have largely missed out on the hundreds of millions of dollars in funding art projects received in the last year through crowdsourcing.

This is still an obscure idea, and yet it generates ridiculous amounts of revenue. Because it works. Imagine if crowdsourcing goes mainstream (and it probably will). You are are talking about revenue that will exceed anything that ever came before. Easily.
#28
6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
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Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
Outstanding success in any field is something of a lottery; whether it's a Kickstarter project or a record hit, there's value in being in the right place at the right time with the right message. But is reviving a widely-beloved creative project that the old gatekeeper-publishers were uninterested in solely a lottery? I doubt it. It was a harnessing of incipient interest, made possible through the power of the internet. The "model," such as it were, has yet to stand the test of time. Maybe it will prove possible to emulate, maybe it won't. But is it a new opportunity for creative [people|professionals]? Oh yes. Oh yes, it is.Now what about that bitterness?
you are wrong.

"Outstanding success" is a lottery sure, but middle class success is about simple sustainability. There is a 45% drop in middle class professional creative musicians in the last 10 years. But if the entire model is based on lottery winners than you have no middle class, hence the 99% versus the 1%, see here:

Sunday Wrap Up: Occupy Artist Rights, by Chris Whitten (Complete Post) | The Trichordist

here is simple math:

old gatekeepers = access to distribution

new gatekeepers = access to money

hmmmmm....

Even Google's Chief Economist, Hal A Varian doesn't believe that internet economics are different from physical economy economics.

Information Rules
Quote:
"Ignore basic economic principles at your own risk. Technology changes. Economic laws do not."
Just saying, you can worship the magic beaver that lives in a spaceship under the googleplex, or you can live in reality...
#29
6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
  #29
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Originally Posted by freetard View Post
While you were complaining here (that must really have helped your bottom line), running around like Chicken Little, you seem to have largely missed out on the hundreds of millions of dollars in funding art projects received in the last year through crowdsourcing.

This is still an obscure idea, and yet it generates ridiculous amounts of revenue. Because it works. Imagine if crowdsourcing goes mainstream (and it probably will). You are are talking about revenue that will exceed anything that ever came before. Easily.
I seriously doubt it, and argue with Google's Chief Economist if you want too... and correction... it's generating Gross Revenue, I'm actually seeing it generate less NET revenue. Of course the crowd funding sites make their margin regardless, so yet again it's good to the gate keeper and not the creator. You are just moving the injustice from one set of corporate interests to another (the emperor has no clothes, sorry), and the new corporate interests are worse than the old ones, see here:

this is talk/post from david lowery at SF Music tech is getting a lot of discussion online from the likes of YCombinator and Reddit:
http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/...oss-full-post/
John Eppstein
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#30
6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
  #30
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Originally Posted by freetard View Post
There are people now who can publish music to an international audience that did not have the ability to publish their work to a international audience.
Bullsh*t. The proper phrase is "be exploited by" or perhaps "give away their work to", not "publish". Other than in certain forms of specialized legalese, "publish" implies a professional relationship and some kind of recompense.

Quote:
And really I'm not going to separate hobbyists and professionals, there is no true separation, and any measurement you try to come with is just arbitrary. I don't think there is a musician out there is is like "herp, I want to ensure that I only make $5700/yr on my music and not a penny more, because I am a hobbyist!"
More manure. You're twisting things to support your own dogma.

I would agree that putting a dollar figure on professionalism is not correct - is a person who maintained a lifelong career but is now out of work no longer a professional? I much prefer an attitude of "I can't give you a strict definition but I know it when I see it", but that doesn't work well in internet debates. One pro will generally recognize another. And will also recognize who isn't one.

Quote:
This isn't like medical doctors or lawyers where there is a clear distinction. It's just a self-imposed title that some musicians use to feel more important than others, but it is totally artificial.
Bullsh*t. That's what amateurs always say. It's not self-imposed. It's more like a matter of recognition - you're professional when other professionals recognize you as one of them.
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