Login / Register
 
45.3% drop in musical groups and artists
Subscribe
John Eppstein
Thread Starter
#1
29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
  #1
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,983

Thread Starter
John Eppstein is online now
45.3% drop in musical groups and artists

John Eppstein
Thread Starter
#2
29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
  #2
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,983

Thread Starter
John Eppstein is online now
45.3% over 10 years, with the decline starting BEFORE the economy crashed.

45.3% is a LOT worse than any other industry. It's even worse than the newspaper and magazine industries.

This is what happens when people stop paying a fair price for work. We need to raise music prices to a sustainable level.
__________________
All opinions expressed in my posts are solely my own: I do not represent any other forums (of which I may or may not be a member), groups, or individuals although at times my views may resemble those of other entities.

************************************
Inside every old man is a young man wondering WTF happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
John Eppstein
Thread Starter
#3
29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
  #3
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,983

Thread Starter
John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat View Post
I wanna start my life over knowing what I know now.
Why bother? It'll all be obsolete in 10 years, anyway. Again.
#4
29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
  #4
Gear maniac
 
guid0's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 290

guid0 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat View Post
Get in line. The whole worlds in the shitter.
Yup. That's what you get when you put MBA-laden vermin F***tards in charge of everything.
__________________
When in doubt, yodel.
#5
29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
  #5
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
#6
29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
  #6
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
45.3% over 10 years, with the decline starting BEFORE the economy crashed.

45.3% is a LOT worse than any other industry. It's even worse than the newspaper and magazine industries.

This is what happens when people stop paying a fair price for work. We need to raise music prices to a sustainable level.
to wit:
Music 3.0 - The Blog Behind The Book: Making A Living Is The New Success
#7
30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,095

claesbjo is offline
Sometimes I get the feeling that music just isn´t that hot anymore.
#8
30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
  #8
Lives for food
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,038

thenoodle is offline
Look at the bright side. You're not considering opening a video rental store or becoming a blacksmith.
__________________
"make multitrack sound for long long time"
"I don't understand this shootout. May I borrow your ear canals so that we're on the same page?"
"Lofi is an artform....not a sample rate""
#9
30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
  #9
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 11,356

joelpatterson is offline
Now watch, videos about blacksmithing will become the next "thing."
#10
30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Beat Poet's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 910

Beat Poet is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by claesbjo View Post
Sometimes I get the feeling that music just isn´t that hot anymore.
To casual fans, music as a standalone product isn't that hot anymore I guess yeah. Music's become something you have on in the background while you're doing something else.
__________________
#11
30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
  #11
Lives for gear
 
AudioWonderland's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,039

AudioWonderland is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

This is what happens when people stop paying a fair price for work. We need to raise music prices to a sustainable level.
Yeah...raising prices will inspire people to buy more music.
John Eppstein
Thread Starter
#12
30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
  #12
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,983

Thread Starter
John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
Look at the bright side. You're not considering opening a video rental store or becoming a blacksmith.
Oddly enough it IS possible to make a living as a blacksmith these days - a good living - because there are so few of them.
John Eppstein
Thread Starter
#13
30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
  #13
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,983

Thread Starter
John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Yeah...raising prices will inspire people to buy more music.
Actually, yes, based on surveys of marketing psychology it's quite conceivable that it might.

There have been studies of cases where two products were exactly the same thing with the exception of the brand name (and attendant marketing) and the exterior case trim. One product sold as a budget brand, the other as a premium brand. Oddly enough, the budget brand did NOT wildly outsell the premium. It did sell more units, total - but not enough to make up the price difference. The premium brand was more profitable. This phenomenon is actually quite common in the consumer electronics industry where devices are cranked out in huge quantities by OEM factories and sold to other companies for rebranding.

There have also been studies that indicate that in some cases raising prices actually can cause sales to increase by raising the public's perceptions of a product's value. How many times have we seen a product - for example a microphone from a company like Oktava or Cascade - that is introduced at a dirt cheap price but within a few years has increased in value so that the cost is double or more of the original?

The idea that the way to fight sagging market share was to drop prices was stupid. All that does is decrease profitability. And create an impression that the product is worth less.
#14
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #14
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Poet View Post
To casual fans, music as a standalone product isn't that hot anymore I guess yeah. Music's become something you have on in the background while you're doing something else.
that's always been the case, since the invention of phono players and radio.
John Eppstein
Thread Starter
#15
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #15
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,983

Thread Starter
John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
that's always been the case, since the invention of phono players and radio.
Erm, player pianos.
#16
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 
dan p's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: san ramon ca
Posts: 1,442

dan p is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
45.3% over 10 years, with the decline starting BEFORE the economy crashed.

45.3% is a LOT worse than any other industry. It's even worse than the newspaper and magazine industries.

This is what happens when people stop paying a fair price for work. We need to raise music prices to a sustainable level.
THe future is here now.
Its called Robotics,The Cloud,Virtual Banking,Business's online.
Many see no paycheck from their music so why invest.
Music is now a sub genre of the entertainment world.Now split up all the genre's within music and you have sub of the subs.
I'm lucky,I've been successful in the past,now just a living but increasing through licensing though thats been cheapened though middlemen publishers and the internet.
Bottom line is Quote you John "This is what happens when people stop paying a fair price for work. We need to raise music prices to a sustainable level."
Maybe the ISP's and the internet police can rev up their cyberstings.....
I want one of those hats...
#17
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #17
Lives for gear
 
jitterybit's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Nashville
Posts: 1,130

jitterybit is offline
I attribute this solely to zero artist being on the radio anymore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Poet View Post
Music's become something you have on in the background while you're doing something else.
yea baby!

no, seriously, not a single decent (current) rock band on the radio. All taken over by xerox rock. And you expect the guitar hero generation to be doing something new and starting bands? The mass public doesn't want to socialize in a club. They want to read about how someone else did it, in 30 words or less, on fecking facebook. The next musical revolution will be after the point where I am too old to get it.

#18
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #18
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan p View Post
THe future is here now.
Its called Robotics,The Cloud,Virtual Banking,Business's online.
Many see no paycheck from their music so why invest.
Music is now a sub genre of the entertainment world.Now split up all the genre's within music and you have sub of the subs.
I'm lucky,I've been successful in the past,now just a living but increasing through licensing though thats been cheapened though middlemen publishers and the internet.
Bottom line is Quote you John "This is what happens when people stop paying a fair price for work. We need to raise music prices to a sustainable level."
Maybe the ISP's and the internet police can rev up their cyberstings.....
I want one of those hats...
six strikes this july, coming to an isp near you.
#19
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #19
Lives for gear
 
dan p's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: san ramon ca
Posts: 1,442

dan p is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
six strikes this july, coming to an isp near you.
Yep,I remember seeing that and will it work?
People can be controlled like sheep really but not en masse without physical force.
#20
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #20
Lives for gear
 
initialsBB's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: LA
Posts: 3,547

initialsBB is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitterybit View Post
no, seriously, not a single decent (current) rock band on the radio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitterybit View Post
The next musical revolution will be after the point where I am too old to get it.
next? try last.
#21
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #21
Lives for gear
 
AudioWonderland's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,039

AudioWonderland is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Actually, yes, based on surveys of marketing psychology it's quite conceivable that it might.

There have been studies of cases where two products were exactly the same thing with the exception of the brand name (and attendant marketing) and the exterior case trim. One product sold as a budget brand, the other as a premium brand. Oddly enough, the budget brand did NOT wildly outsell the premium. It did sell more units, total - but not enough to make up the price difference. The premium brand was more profitable. This phenomenon is actually quite common in the consumer electronics industry where devices are cranked out in huge quantities by OEM factories and sold to other companies for rebranding.

There have also been studies that indicate that in some cases raising prices actually can cause sales to increase by raising the public's perceptions of a product's value. How many times have we seen a product - for example a microphone from a company like Oktava or Cascade - that is introduced at a dirt cheap price but within a few years has increased in value so that the cost is double or more of the original?

The idea that the way to fight sagging market share was to drop prices was stupid. All that does is decrease profitability. And create an impression that the product is worth less.
Then Barnes and Noble should be lighting up Wall Street with their ridiculous sales numbers since they still use late 80's pricing on CD's. I suppose the fact that best buy and a lot of other retailers barely have CD's for sale is not helping. On the other hand I have collected a slew of killer disks @ 4.99 a pop at these stores.

We are not selling perfume or trendy items. Raising prices in this arena will not help the problem.
John Eppstein
Thread Starter
#22
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #22
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,983

Thread Starter
John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Then Barnes and Noble should be lighting up Wall Street with their ridiculous sales numbers since they still use late 80's pricing on CD's. I suppose the fact that best buy and a lot of other retailers barely have CD's for sale is not helping. On the other hand I have collected a slew of killer disks @ 4.99 a pop at these stores.

We are not selling perfume or trendy items. Raising prices in this arena will not help the problem.
No, that's not it. The price increase has to be ACROSS THE BOARD in order to work. In other words the price on a given product has to go up everywhere.

The dog in the manger is big box stores like Best Buy and Wal-mart that price retail music under their wholesale cost as a loss leader. This destroys the market. The industry needs to wise up and stop dealing with these outlets. It's the Best Buys and Wal-marts that destroyed the business of dedicated record stores.

The record industry needs to regain control of their market. They've allowed too many hostile entities to usurp control.

The reason that company A can support a selling price for (for example) a DVD player that is 5 times what Company B charges for the exact same unit housed in a different outer shell is that Company A does not permit their dealers to slash prices to an absurd loevel. They maintain the perceived quality of the brand in the eye of the customer even though they're selling the exact same product as the el cheapo brand..

The way to accomplish such a realignment of prices is (1) ditch the dealers that use your product as a loss leader and (2) slowly increase retail prices at your remaining outlets, frog in a pot of water style. Don't hit your customers with the increase all at once, do it over a longer period of time.
#23
1st May 2012
Old 1st May 2012
  #23
Lives for gear
 
lobsterinn's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Portland, Ore.
Posts: 1,225
My Recordings/Credits

lobsterinn is offline
@ John Eppstein: You might be right, but there is no homogenous music industry anymore which can leverage the market to raise prices. There will always be labels / artists / consumers who refuse to jump in with any across the board solution. Who is going to regulate how much an independent artist charges for fans to download songs from their website?

But this leaves out the more fundamental issue of why the entire creative industry is faltering. It isn't just the internet and illegal downloading. It isn't just the recession. There is a greater cultural and political shift happening. People just don't value the arts as much. It is a sign of a society in decline.
#24
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
  #24
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobsterinn View Post
@ John Eppstein: You might be right, but there is no homogenous music industry anymore which can leverage the market to raise prices. There will always be labels / artists / consumers who refuse to jump in with any across the board solution. Who is going to regulate how much an independent artist charges for fans to download songs from their website?

But this leaves out the more fundamental issue of why the entire creative industry is faltering. It isn't just the internet and illegal downloading. It isn't just the recession. There is a greater cultural and political shift happening. People just don't value the arts as much. It is a sign of a society in decline.
absolute nonsense.
John Eppstein
Thread Starter
#25
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
  #25
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,983

Thread Starter
John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobsterinn View Post
@ John Eppstein: You might be right, but there is no homogenous music industry anymore which can leverage the market to raise prices. There will always be labels / artists / consumers who refuse to jump in with any across the board solution. Who is going to regulate how much an independent artist charges for fans to download songs from their website?

But this leaves out the more fundamental issue of why the entire creative industry is faltering. It isn't just the internet and illegal downloading. It isn't just the recession. There is a greater cultural and political shift happening. People just don't value the arts as much. It is a sign of a society in decline.
Because of the site ban on piracy discussions I can't discuss this adequately. Perhaps some time in the future Jules will loosen the Rules a bit, but until then I'm muzzled.

However, I will say this - your premise is flawed and your reasoning is incorrect. The one is the cause of the other. After corrections are made to bring the one back under control the other will follow.
#26
2nd May 2012
Old 2nd May 2012
  #26
Lives for gear
 
lobsterinn's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Portland, Ore.
Posts: 1,225
My Recordings/Credits

lobsterinn is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Because of the site ban on piracy discussions I can't discuss this adequately. Perhaps some time in the future Jules will loosen the Rules a bit, but until then I'm muzzled.

However, I will say this - your premise is flawed and your reasoning is incorrect. The one is the cause of the other. After corrections are made to bring the one back under control the other will follow.
Oops. Didn't realize there was a verboten topic on the forum. You're right. This can't be adequately discussed without dealing with the elephant in the room.

I'm guessing we wouldn't agree on which problem is a symptom and which is the underlying disease. Oh well, I guess we can go back to talking about microphones.
#27
4th May 2012
Old 4th May 2012
  #27
Lives for gear
 
sventvkg's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 719

sventvkg is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitterybit View Post
I attribute this solely to zero artist being on the radio anymore



yea baby!

no, seriously, not a single decent (current) rock band on the radio. All taken over by xerox rock. And you expect the guitar hero generation to be doing something new and starting bands? The mass public doesn't want to socialize in a club. They want to read about how someone else did it, in 30 words or less, on fecking facebook. The next musical revolution will be after the point where I am too old to get it.

DAMN!! NAIL ON HEAD!!!!
#28
4th May 2012
Old 4th May 2012
  #28
Lives for gear
 
cdog's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 3,997

cdog is offline
Its like trying to have a discussion about sex where you cannot mention the penis, vagina, clitoris, and anus. Its possible theoretically to have such a discussion, but in practical terms such a discussion is meaningless and not worth even having.

I think the ban on discussing "subject X" is preposterous, counter productive, and disingenuous for a site with so many intelligent, creative people. It makes me want to pretty much never visit the Music Biz subforum again, because we cant have a real discussion - only a fake, contrived one.
#29
4th May 2012
Old 4th May 2012
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Cloud Peak on The Karakoram
Posts: 1,359

Frank_Case is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
45.3% drop in musical groups and artists
The BLS statistics are misleading because they only count people who are employed full-time. The reality is that there has been an explosion of part time producers/engineers/musicians who make music in their homes when they are not at their day job. There is more independent music being released these days then ever before.

In my town we have two full time non-profit FM stations that do nothing but play independent CDs from small unknown artists. Additionally we have two public stations that play lots of independent music as well. All four of these stations gather huge audiences to the disheartenment of the usual assortment of commercial FM stations. The net effect is that people are now listening to more diverse music.

THERE HAS BEEN A PARADIGM SHIFT. Get over it.
#30
4th May 2012
Old 4th May 2012
  #30
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
The BLS statistics are misleading because they only count people who are employed full-time. The reality is that there has been an explosion of part time producers/engineers/musicians who make music in their homes when they are not at their day job. There is more independent music being released these days then ever before.

In my town we have two full time non-profit FM stations that do nothing but play independent CDs from small unknown artists. Additionally we have two NPR stations that play lots of independent music as well. All four of these stations gather huge audiences to the disheartenment of the usual assortment of commercial FM stations. The net effect is that people are now listening to more diverse music.

THERE HAS BEEN A PARADIGM SHIFT. Get over it.
the BLS stats are not misleading, they represent full time professional creatives, and there are LESS people now able to have a full time professional creative career. hobbyists have ALWAYS existed, so what?

all this tech hasn't helped musicians or created a new professional creative middle class as many promised or predicted. tech has HURT musicians as represented in the stunning drop of musicians that can sustain a professional career. this is, in fact, a net negative.

Jaron Lanier describes the failure of web 2.0 very well here:

https://thetrichordist.wordpress.com...-gadget-video/



the essential issue is whether you believe there should be a professional creative class who are fairly compensated for their work, or if you believe all art should, and must be created by part timers and hobbyists. In other words are you working towards the protection of individuals or corporations. We're moving towards creators being cyberserfs under the control of digital moaists gatekeepers. In this case the gate keepers don't control access to distribution, they control revenue from distribution.

here's the real numbers:

Ted Cohen: Breaking Through The Noise | | midemblogmidemblog

Quote:
"The Internet was supposed to be the ultimate leveler, great music would be able to find its audience, the 'big label' gatekeepers would no longer control access to the masses.

It hasn't exactly played out that way. According to my friend, Tommy Silverman/Tommy Boy Records and the co-founder of the New Music Seminar recently told me that he did the math and only 228 artists broke 10,000 units for the first time last year out of 105,000 albums. That’s 2.17% but only 15 of those did it without the help of a real label.

That's not very encouraging to the other ninety-eight percent. While tens of thousand of artists are self-releasing their music, their ability to get noticed in a meaningful way is stifled by the sheer volume of music that is arriving daily at iTunes, Amazon, Spotify, MySpace Music, Yahoo, Rhapsody, Pandora, iHeart and others. Ten years ago, there were roughly twenty-five thousand album releases a year.

In 2009, it is estimated that there will be over one hundred thousand albums put into digital distribution. That's roughly a million new tracks a year, four million minutes of music, or almost three thousand days-worth of song. But, maybe, if I listen really, really fast, I could....nope!"
In other words, what you have is an "exploitation economy" where creatives do all the work and corporations make all the money. This is FACTUALLY worse for professional creative artists than in the period dominated by record labels.

Old Gatekeepers controlled access to Distribution.

New Gatekeepers control access to Money.

Loser Generated Content : From Participation to Exploitation
Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
jsteiger / So much gear, so little time!
15
0VU / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
18
jordan19 / For those we have lost. Memorials, RIPs & Obituaries
4

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.