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The Musician’s POV: Occupy Artist Rights, Part 1
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#91
4th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes, I do have proof.
I'm just not revealing it to an anonymous poster on a public forum.
Joe Barresi's Evil Drums

Read posts 104-106.

Disbelieve me all you want, but I work in the area being discussed and there actually is a ton of 'evidence' on this if you would open your eyes.
Last post.

First, I never said anything about "proof". You brought that up. You are trying to make it seem like I said "piracy has never been a problem for anyone in any way and has no effect on anything."

Second, your link doesn't really prove anything. Looks like someone was making a guess, and listed 2 possible reasons.

3rd, where did I say I disbelieve you? I asked a question.

You and your gang seem so hung up and defensive.

4th, bye.
#92
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
First, I never said anything about "proof".
Hmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
do you have proof on what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
Second, your link doesn't really prove anything. Looks like someone was making a guess, and listed 2 possible reasons.
The post (104) reports what Platinum Samples said on a couple of other forums, not 'a guess'. Then Platinum Samples posted in person (106) with NO contradiction.
I also know all the background to this.
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#93
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
Last post.

First, I never said anything about "proof". You brought that up. You are trying to make it seem like I said "piracy has never been a problem for anyone in any way and has no effect on anything."

Second, your link doesn't really prove anything. Looks like someone was making a guess, and listed 2 possible reasons.

3rd, where did I say I disbelieve you? I asked a question.

You and your gang seem so hung up and defensive.

4th, bye.
piracy does prevent products and music from coming to market... see here:
Piracy Is Personal - Tell Your Story Here

Quote:
Due to piracy, I have less and less money to invest in new projects, less people I can hire and less that I can pay them when I do.
have a great day!
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5th April 2012
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Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
No, it's your choice. I was discussing my take on Coulton's statement.
which is what exactly? that he acknowledges that he's been unfairly compromised by tech companies in his desire to be paid for his work and that he supports copyright?

Quote:
Coulton: Well don't get me wrong -- I believe in copyright. And I make no secret of the fact that I would love to be paid for music.
#95
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk
There is some truth to that. Perhaps the best thing for music would be for what is expected to be entirely undone, just as happened when the music industry began.

Does art really need an industry?
It has since the beginning of civilization:

Quote:
Dier el-Medina and the first industrial strike

Around November 1153 BCE, the first ever industrial strike was recorded in the artists' village of Deir el-Medina. When wheat and barley for making beer owed to the workmen as payment for services failed to arrive on time, the men of the village spent days demanding payment. When nobody took any notice, the workmen staged a sit-down demonstration outside the funerary temples of Thutmose III, Ramesses II and possibly Seti I. The scribe Amennakhte stated to the temple precinct’s chief of police:

‘It is because of hunger and because of thirst that we came here. There is no clothing, no ointment, no fish, no vegetables. Send to Pharaoh our good Lord about it and send to the vizier our superior that sustenance may be made for us.’

This threat of informing the central administration had a good effect and the workmen were given their supplies.
Did you really think all that fantastic ancient art was made for free?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk
Yes, but who's to say how they go about it. Van Gogh lived off of his brother.

Perhaps there is a sea change in the world of music, just as there was before the recording business existed, and perhaps that will be good for music.
Van Gogh was mentally ill.

Vincent van Gogh Mental Health, Physical Health
#96
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herp Derp View Post
Whatever.
I apologize for my sarcasm, that is just a bold claim for anybody to make about any topic. The internet and it's uses are vast, I really don't think it's as art-centric as some seem to claim. I think the ultimate reason why people use the internet is the communication aspect, and as a resource for information; an internet without artistic content would be less interesting for sure, but probably no one would cancel their internet connection if that were the case. Actually, to me, a fact based internet sounds kinda neat, and... useful.
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5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I apologize for my sarcasm, that is just a bold claim for anybody to make about any topic. The internet and it's uses are vast, I really don't think it's as art-centric as some seem to claim. I think the ultimate reason why people use the internet is the communication aspect, and as a resource for information; an internet without artistic content would be less interesting for sure, but probably no one would cancel their internet connection if that were the case. Actually, to me, a fact based internet sounds kinda neat, and... useful.
ted nelson had a vision... when you type "http" you are paying homage to ted.

Ted Nelson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Project Xanadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PROJECT XANADU

#98
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I apologize for my sarcasm, that is just a bold claim for anybody to make about any topic. The internet and it's uses are vast, I really don't think it's as art-centric as some seem to claim. I think the ultimate reason why people use the internet is the communication aspect, and as a resource for information; an internet without artistic content would be less interesting for sure, but probably no one would cancel their internet connection if that were the case. Actually, to me, a fact based internet sounds kinda neat, and... useful.
No offense taken. This IS the internet, after all. Do you know why VCR's took off in the first place? It wasn't because of movies, it was because of porn.

Music has been shoved into the free porn category lately.

That's not right. Just my 2 cents.
#99
5th April 2012
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The public internet started out more text based, much more dry and informational.
It seems clear to me the way things are going is much more content based.
Blogs, news, YouTube and Vimeo, Soundcloud, online tv (iView),
iTunes, Beatport, Facebook, Flickr.
It's as much about consuming and exchanging content as about communication.
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5th April 2012
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5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Well DAMN! NOW you tell me!!!
Exactly, we're screwed.
#102
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Hmm.
Relentless. You brought up the idea of "proof".

Quote:
The post (104) reports what Platinum Samples said on a couple of other forums, not 'a guess'. Then Platinum Samples posted in person (106) with NO contradiction.
I also know all the background to this.
So Toontrack is still in business, and from what I can see, it looks like it's all software and so is it all pirated? EZDrummer still exists. If you can't explain the success or damage or anything in detail, don't know why you brought it up.
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#104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
Relentless. You brought up the idea of "proof".

So Toontrack is still in business, and from what I can see, it looks like it's all software and so is it all pirated? EZDrummer still exists. If you can't explain the success or damage or anything in detail, don't know why you brought it up.
Why does it matter? Artists Rights are being violated by tech companies for profit. It's illegal. It's damaging. Or are you alleging that there is no negative impact from piracy or the impact is negligible?

You can have that opinion but even The White House and Google acknowledge that piracy is "a serious problem." Which is why more Artists are going to be getting more vocal and banding together. This is essentially a labor issue, and I think the forth coming Occupy Albums will create an interesting intersection.

If Occupy Records already has a problem with Apple and Amazon, imagine how they'll feel about Google and Pirates?

Occupation Records shuns Apple, Amazon over 'labor violations' - Media News - Digital Spy

These forthcoming records are also amassing an impressive list of artists. I have no idea how one could support Fair Labor Practices when Artist Rights have been thrown out wholesale to profit tech corporations?

So I'm not sure why you would spend so much energy defending "a serious problem" that is completely counter to the preservation and protection of Artists Rights.

So what exactly do you believe? Specifically? Because if you're defending piracy as being "not a problem" because there's "no proof of damage" than that just looks like you're supporting tech corporations and not artists rights.

But, maybe I'm confused and you could clearly and specificly post your point of view on the subject? After all this thread is "Occupy Artists Rights" in defense of Artists Rights (the 99%) from the tyranny of the tech corporations ripping off artists without consent or compensation (the 1%).

I look forward to reading your clear and specific point of view on the subject of this thread.

Thanks!

NP: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=137970
#105
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
Why does it matter? Artists Rights are being violated by tech companies for profit. It's illegal. It's damaging. Or are you alleging that there is no negative impact from piracy or the impact is negligible?

You can have that opinion but even The White House and Google acknowledge that piracy is "a serious problem." Which is why more Artists are going to be getting more vocal and banding together. This is essentially a labor issue, and I think the forth coming Occupy Albums will create an interesting intersection.

If Occupy Records already has a problem with Apple and Amazon, imagine how they'll feel about Google and Pirates?

Occupation Records shuns Apple, Amazon over 'labor violations' - Media News - Digital Spy

These forthcoming records are also amassing an impressive list of artists. I have no idea how one could support Fair Labor Practices when Artist Rights have been thrown out wholesale to profit tech corporations?

So I'm not sure why you would spend so much energy defending "a serious problem" that is completely counter to the preservation and protection of Artists Rights.

So what exactly do you believe? Specifically? Because if you're defending piracy as being "not a problem" because there's "no proof of damage" than that just looks like you're supporting tech corporations and not artists rights.

But, maybe I'm confused and you could clearly and specific post your point of view on the subject? After all this thread is "Occupy Artists Rights" in defense of Artists Rights (the 99%) from the tyranny of the tech corporations ripping off artists without consent or compensation (the 1%).

I look forward to reading your clear and specific point of view on the subject of this thread.

Thanks!

NP: SoundClick artist: Particle Salad - Etherial ambient pop rock, ethnic percussion
I'm not defending it nor did I say it wasn't a serious problem. Do you or Chrisso ever respond to what is actually written, or do you just like to take whatever's said and twist it? Maybe you and he are the same guy. And I'm not spending a lot of energy, not nearly as much as you. You ask a lot of questions, but you never answer mine. If you can find where I said what you accuse me of saying in probably every single one of your posts, maybe I'll answer yours.

EDIT: I see you posted a link to the guy you think I am. Why don't you post a link to your music?
#106
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
Do you or Chrisso ever respond to what is actually written
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
"Make good stuff, then make it easy for people to buy it. There’s your anti-piracy plan."
I'm discussing this with you as from my actual experience it doesn't work.
I'm not sure how a company (Toontrack) still being in business shores up your point and diminishes mine?
The company could be hanging on under a piracy assault for all you know. Because you don't know.
We do know the product is highly regarded. We do know it's easily available. We do know it's on a lot of piracy sites, with pirates discussing how happy they are to download it (illegally).
So again, I'm not sure where the doubt lies in your mind.
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#107
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
I'm not defending it nor did I say it wasn't a serious problem.
great, so you are against piracy and it is a serious problem, right?

so than what is your specific position on the topic of artists rights... you like to say, what you "haven't said", but you don't actually seem to post what you do believe.

So if you're not defending tech companies violating artists rights for profit, do you support the enforcement and the protection of those artists rights against the tech companies?

I look forward to reading your clear and specific point of view on the subject of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
You ask a lot of questions, but you never answer mine.
your questions tend to be off topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
EDIT: I see you posted a link to the guy you think I am.
Really? Who's that? I have no idea what your talking about. I just posted some music I'm listening too... I don't know who it is other than I found it on soundclick, do you know more about the artist? Who is it? Do you like it? It's very commercial ambient adult contemporary stuff, not really "art" in any way, but ok as background music while working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
Why don't you post a link to your music?
you first, I'm working on my new album at the moment, I'll let you know when it's done.

NP: http://www.last.fm/music/Liquid+State/Late+Bloom
#108
5th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes.



I'm discussing this with you as from my actual experience it doesn't work.
I'm not sure how a company (Toontrack) still being in business shores up your point and diminishes mine?
The company could be hanging on under a piracy assault for all you know. Because you don't know.
We do know the product is highly regarded. We do know it's easily available. We do know it's on a lot of piracy sites, with pirates discussing how happy they are to download it (illegally).
So again, I'm not sure where the doubt lies in your mind.
So what should Toontrack do?
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Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
Really? Who's that? I have no idea what your talking about. I just posted some music I'm listening too... I don't know who it is other than I found it on soundclick, do you know more about the artist? Who is it? Do you like it? It's very commercial ambient adult contemporary stuff, not really "art" in any way, but ok as background music while working.
You ought to contact him there and see what he thinks of this thread. I didn't listen to it (even though I assume it's free to listen to).

Is this your music? I didn't listen to it either.

EDIT: I looked at that page further, and I see it's the same guy. For someone who pretends to support artist's rights, doesn't seem very supportive to mock someone's music. But I can tell you're not really the supportive type, unless maybe there's money in it for you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
So what should Toontrack do?
The point being, is a solution to piracy making a 'great' product that's 'easy' to acquire?
What do you think?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
So what should Toontrack do?
What do you think Toontrack should do about thier work be stolen for profit by tech companies?

I think Toontrack should advocate for the protection of their rights as artists against the tech companies stealing and distributing Toontrack's product with impunity, and for profit.

All Artists in the Digital Age deserve the opportunity to fair compensation for their labor, without that work being stolen and exploited, to the profit of tech companies.
http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/...ve-rights-too/
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#112
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Originally Posted by Muser View Post
if the terms are that the artist wishes to apply those existing rules then there are rules there to be applied.
just because there didn't used to be rules doesn't mean there aren't any now. it's just that in his logic
Coulton seems to assume that because there used to have been no rules (then),
actually has no baring on the fact that there are rules now.

in the past there were also no rules that a roman father was not able to kill his own son, legally.
if you apply Coultons logic, then he'd be arguing that because there were no rules then, there are
no rules now.

which he then concedes by saying, he respects copyright.

I think he's saying what a lot of Artists are saying these days. trying to say really that music is no longer valued
as a private experience worthy of paying for. That particular exchange no longer has an exchange value etc.

so because of this and because he does gigs and this is working out ok for him, then he's personally contented,
as it doesn't really effect him personally.

I wonder what he will do when concerts are experienced electronically in virtual spaces and he has to do
30 concerts a week just to get the same level of reward. people already do concerts in second life, and they
will be lucky to pull $15 for a gig, in tips.

and imho, this is the future of communications in general. There will still be concerts in the future, but those
will be more like nostalgic experiences about what it felt like, when your real body actually had to be present.

as always, you make excellent points.
#113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The point being, is a solution to piracy making a 'great' product that's 'easy' to acquire?
What do you think?
I already said it wasn't a solution. So if making a great product that's easy to acquire is not a good idea, than what is?
#114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
What do you think Toontrack should do about thier work be stolen for profit by tech companies?

I think Toontrack should advocate for the protection of their rights as artists against the tech companies stealing and distributing Toontrack's product with impunity, and for profit.

All Artists in the Digital Age deserve the opportunity to fair compensation for their labor, without that work being stolen and exploited, to the profit of tech companies.
Artists Have Rights, Too | The Trichordist
You said you are working on an "album". I'm sure it will be great, so that's not an issue. But what do you plan to do to market it? If Coulton is giving out bad advice, what advice should he be giving out? And don't say fight for artists rights. That is a given. What are you actually going to do??
#115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
You said you are working on an "album". I'm sure it will be great, so that's not an issue. But what do you plan to do to market it? If Coulton is giving out bad advice, what advice should he be giving out? And don't say fight for artists rights. That is a given. What are you actually going to do??
Marketing and Promotion is covered in other threads. This thread is about the protection of Artists Rights from illegal exploitation by tech companies for profit - because that's what happens after you promote your music, it gets ripped off by tech companies without consent or compensation.

so in sticking with the topic of this thread, what is your specific position on the topic of artists rights... you like to say, what you "haven't said", but you don't actually seem to post what you do believe... makes it hard to have an honest debate if you won't make your position/s clear.

So if you're not defending tech companies violating artists rights for profit, do you support the enforcement and the protection of those artists rights against the tech companies?

I look forward to reading your clear and specific point of view on the subject of this thread.

Thanks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frednurk View Post
So if making a great product that's easy to acquire is not a good idea, than what is?
making a great product that is easy to acquire legally, but not as easy to acquire illegally (and without consequence).
#118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
Marketing and Promotion is covered in other threads.


You started talking about Van Gogh in this thread!

Point me to the thread with your plan for marketing and promoting your new album. This is the crux of the matter, isn't it?


Quote:
This thread is about the protection of Artists Rights from illegal exploitation by tech companies for profit - because that's what happens after you promote your music, it gets ripped off by tech companies without consent or compensation.

so in sticking with the topic of this thread, what is your specific position on the topic of artists rights... you like to say, what you "haven't said", but you don't actually seem to post what you do believe... makes it hard to have an honest debate if you won't make your position/s clear.

So if you're not defending tech companies violating artists rights for profit, do you support the enforcement and the protection of those artists rights against the tech companies?

I look forward to reading your clear and specific point of view on the subject of this thread.

Thanks!


How many times do I have to tell you I'm not going to answer until you show me where I said what you said I said. You are derailing your own thread with this.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
making a great product that is easy to acquire legally, but not as easy to acquire illegally (and without consequence).
How does one do that?
#120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herp Derp View Post
Many advanced CGI programs I've used like Maya and Combustion allow you to view your workspace like Xanadu does:




A 3-D operating system for a computer would be very interesting. Remember the computers in "Minority Report"?
Try to stay on topic Rack.
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