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#1261
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
I've checked in on this thread periodically, and it has been, as it often comes to on these forums, the chrisso and rack gear/Lives for Fuzz/purple vista/music monk/blue nine/EFF/redvelvetstudios (same person to all these names; each of which has been used for his account on this forum over the years) argumentum ad infinitum show.

With the hope to either lighten the mood and/or lend some perspective to any participants in these discussions, I did a little math using numbers from recent large threads in this forum.

I believe that, as thread length approaches infinity, the chrisso+rack gear/Lives for Fuzz/purple vista/music monk/blue nine/EFF/redvelvetstudios post quotient settles in at about 1 out of 3. There may be some useless, inflammatory, misleading and mischaracterizing posts among those ~33% of replies, but you have to at least tip your hat to their sheer consistency of output volume.
I'm just passionate about artists rights, why shouldn't I be? Some of us do the things because it is the right and ethical thing to do, not because we profit from it.
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#1262
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
Yeah you're right, people illegally downloading mp3s is equivalent to slavery, human trafficking, genocide, or child labor. That's not offensive at all. Great debating tactic!
the conversation is not about individual downloaders, it's about millionaire and billionaire tech companies ripping off artists for profit and with impunity.

the conversation is about corporate responsibility, not consumer behavior (which six strikes will start to remedy).

ISP Six Strikes Plan Arrives in July - Throttling, Filtering and 'Education' | DSLReports.com, ISP Information

let the screaming begin...
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#1263
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzschreiner View Post
The reality is they don't for the most part believe what they are doing is wrong. To them, it's probably not much different from finding a coin on the street. "Hey, look, I got lucky. Somebody dropped a quarter".
well, it will be hard to maintain that line of thinking once they start getting notifications from their ISP.
#1264
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
I'm just passionate about artists rights, why shouldn't I be? Some of us do the things because it is the right and ethical thing to do, not because we profit from it.
That would be far more believable, and your cause would be far more admirable, if you didn't devolve every almost every conversation on the topic into a morass of leading questions and absurd and childish accusations ("IF YOU LOVE PIRACY SO MUCH, WHY DON'T YOU MARRY IT?").

Don't even bother denying it. Examples absolutely abound in this thread and many others. If you want honest debate, then consider mending your ways. If you don't, then I'm sure you'll continue as you will.
#1265
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Can't remember 'back peddling'.
Can't remember mentioning 'recording artists' either.
You said "If they work, they have the right to be paid." and I said "A musician doesn't have a "right" to be paid by the audience simply for working hard." and you said "Uuugh. For the 1001 time.... yes we know." So yeah, I don't get where you're coming from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Musicians have the same rights as any other worker when it comes to being paid when they work.
Sure, if you're talking about club owners not paying musicians or something like that. But in the case of records, what you have is a product. The artist doesn't get paid when they work, they get paid when the product is sold. Just like any other speculative business venture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
You seem to be agreeing with some others that because playing music for a living is a desirable career, and it's sometimes good fun, people who play music for a living don't deserve the same rights as auto workers.
Wrong!
If musicians are employed then yes, they will be protected by all of the same rights that protect other workers. The percentage of musicians that are paid a wage or salary though is probably tiny. Most musicians work as independent contractors, selling their service or products to another business or directly to the audience. Therefore they are not in fact protected under the same laws as a wage laborer. The same would be true of an autoworker who starts his own business building cars. If those cars sell, good for him, but he has no inherent right to be paid for that speculative labor. If somebody steals his cars then that's a law enforcement issue, not a labor dispute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Musicians have struggled for decent conditions for at least 100 years.
there are still no unfair dismissal laws, anti-discrimination laws, healthcare benefits.
You don't think average musicians with mortgages, wives and kids aren't under extreme pressure when their band fires them because they don't fit the image any more? No written warning, no probation period, no real excuse.
No other worker puts up with those kind of employment conditions.
I'm not disputing that being a musician is a really hard way to make a living and always has been. But they are certainly not the only ones who work under those conditions. No independent contractors receive those protections. They generally only apply to wage laborers or salaried employees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
On the virtual instrument software I help produce I'm often working for less than minimum wage.
The midi files are a free give away. They take me weeks because I really want to get them right.
If I totted up the hours i spent and calculated how much I should earn on minimum wage, we couldn't sell the product for the price we do.
Of course, when punters pirate the product, I'm not getting paid at all, let alone being paid below minimum wage.
But that's between you and your employer. Not between you and the paying customers or you and the pirates. The pirates are stealing a product from Toontrack. If you get a percentage of sales then they're stealing from you too. But the pirates are not your employer and it isn't a labor dispute!
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#1266
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
That would be far more believable, and your cause would be far more admirable, if you didn't devolve every almost every conversation on the topic into a morass of leading questions and absurd and childish accusations ("IF YOU LOVE PIRACY SO MUCH, WHY DON'T YOU MARRY IT?").

Don't even bother denying it. Examples absolutely abound in this thread and many others. If you want honest debate, then consider mending your ways. If you don't, then I'm sure you'll continue as you will.
to be clear, the conversation is about millionaire and billionaire tech companies ripping off artists for profit and with impunity. I don't support that, and I don't know why anyone who supports artists rights would. it's pretty simple.

regarding honest debate, I'd respectfully ask the same of you (ways mended).
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#1267
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axs1 View Post
But yes, guilty as charged. Push comes to shove, I will choose my personal freedoms over my right to make money off of recorded music. Of course, I don't have a say in the matter, and it looks like - yes, I think I see something on the horizon there, wait a minute, yepp - I will have neither.
But this is your Black or White argument with Zero Flexibility... why must the internet be lawless in order to exist? It's a fallacy. It's a false dichotomy.

Theft is not protected by free speech. As yet no one has been able to explain how protecting artists rights online limits free speech.

http://www.copyhype.com/2012/01/copy...actice-part-4/

It's going to be really interesting to see how this builds once the occupy album is released, where the movement goes and who it aligns with. I have a feeling they are going to support rights and labor over the tyranny of tech companies ripping off artists, especially when those artists are using their labor to support a movement for equality.
#1268
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axs1 View Post
The internet is now center stage for a massive war of the minds and a war over who controls the internet itself. To me it seems like Crisso and his klan, downplay this aspect when discussing this issue. The problem for me is when the issue of what to do about illegal file sharing becomes simply a question of being forced to choose between copyright and loss of freedom of choice, freedom of privacy and opening a whole can of worms in the process.
Seriously man, you are beyond naive.
The entertainment industry is a tiny pimple on piracy's bum compared to big tech. As was ably demonstrated during the anti SOPA campaign.
The entertainment industry has no plans to curtail your privacy.
Meanwhile, the tech industries have seemingly succeeded in diverting your attention towards 'evil labels' and away from their own sordid practices.
Your privacy is already hugely compromised by the internet.
Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple all have embedded software to track your every move geographically, and track your movements on the internet.
If you search for alcohol rehabilitation or abortion clinics using Google, the next time you visit google, even to search for local pizza parlours, you'll find pop-up ads for alcohol and abortion clinics.
The social media, like Twitter and Google already censor web content to suit local host countries like China. Do they do that because they are more passionate about freedoms than the entertainment industry? No they do it because they are most passionate about big profits, and will do just about anything to be a powerful force in every country on the planet, no matter what the norms of freedom of speech are in those countries.
Stop worrying about the fate of a few pirates, and start looking at the real issue of freedom and piracy, as threatened by big money tech companies.... today.... not in some mythical future.
PS: I'm totally concerned about freedom and privacy, which is why I don't have Facebook, Twitter or MySpace accounts.
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#1269
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1269
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rack gear, really you are funny. Can you sense the sarcasm? I asked you once before what your plans would be. What exactly would you propose to bring the "lawless" internet back in line? Personally, I can't think of any organisation from the USA I would trust with that huge endeavor. The people you give that power to would be 10 times worse than your tech companies have shown. Wasn't it your wall street that plunged the entire world into a 5 year recession with no signs of improvement? There is not one organisation powerful enough to control the lawless internet, that anyone in their right mind would ever trust. Seriously, give your head a shake man. A "Big Brother" of any kind will be a disaster in this scenario. Can't you see that? What's in it for you? Quit crying about the artists and come clean. What's in it for you?
#1270
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
You said "If they work, they have the right to be paid." and I said "A musician doesn't have a "right" to be paid by the audience simply for working hard."
'Audience' implies they are consuming the product, taking advantage of my work.
Again, my issue with you is you are operating on the semantic side of the debate.
No, if no one buys my album I wont be paid. WE all get that. There has never been an issue about that. The issue we are all debating is when someone consumes the product because they like it, and the workers don't get paid.
That is as much a labour rights issue as any other worker not being paid.
I fail to see the difference between a factory owner not paying an employee, and someone obtaining my album and not paying me. I have a right to be paid.
#1271
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
A "Big Brother" of any kind will be a disaster in this scenario.
Check out what Google, Facebook and Apple are up to.
You're sleepwalking into a highly controlled, highly monetized internet, while swallowing the inducement to look the wrong way (at the music industry).
#1272
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple all have embedded software to track your every move geographically, and track your movements on the internet.
Actually, some cookies and a bit of javascript is far from what most users are concerned about. If you knew anything about software you would know that. The stuff you speak of is simple code and automates a lot of procedures. It really does not invade privacy, like some kind of back door code would allow. I hear "sky is falling" types spreading these client side software horror stories all the time. So far, these huge companies are using their software as advertised. If they didn't there would be a huge push back from the tech sector gurus and many thousand lawsuits filed. Quit trying to scare people, so you can try to put a big brother in charge of the internet. It ain't happening. Next.
#1273
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Actually, some cookies and a bit of javascript is far from what most users are concerned about. If you knew anything about software you would know that.
Actually it's a very hot topic.
They are collecting reams of data about you, where you go everyday, and what you do. If you don't sign up to Google's privacy policies you can't have a YouTube account, or even use an Android powered phone!
Meanwhile, you cry about a loss of privacy due to the entertainment industry.
You're swallowing the lines fed you by the most powerful, most wealthy companies in America.
#1274
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Check out what Google, Facebook and Apple are up to.
You're sleepwalking into a highly controlled, highly monetized internet, while swallowing the inducement to look the wrong way (at the music industry).
I want nothing more than for for artists and musicians and filmmakers to be compensated for their efforts. This is not a cut and dried "lets put a big brother" type org. in charge of the internet. That's like making a bunch of fat guys, night watchmen at the chocolate factory. I think everyone agrees with you about artists rights. Its the other million implications this opens up. Its a huge can of worms. It needs 100% cooperation from all parties involved. Its like the creation of the midi standard. Its the last time I can remember a bunch of suits agreeing on anything. It was a beautiful thing. Still is.
#1275
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1275
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SOPA is dead.
Hadopi (in France) doesn't restrict your web privacy, only the 'freedom' to rip off content creators.
So, you are most fearful of the entertainment industry controlling your internet freedom and privacy? But you don't think Wikileaks and Anonymous incidents will impact the web, or Apple, Google, Facebook's battle for financial supremecy? The Facebook mission statement is to be the one stop shop for all your internet use. They want to control the whole web.
#1276
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Actually it's a very hot topic.
They are collecting reams of data about you, where you go everyday, and what you do. If you don't sign up to Google's privacy policies you can't have a YouTube account, or even use an Android powered phone!
Meanwhile, you cry about a loss of privacy due to the entertainment industry.
You're swallowing the lines fed you by the most powerful, most wealthy companies in America.
Yes I agree to that to a point. However, they are using that data for their own big business type ROI, in marketing and trying to make money easier and faster. I don't have a problem with that. Its not google I am worried about. Its the future internet entities (that don't exist under current laws) that will profit from the ability to run roughshod over your privacy. It is the unknown that most are concerned about. What will happen when you put huge power into a few hands? What will distinguish us from N Korea after certain people are allowed to flex their muscles legally? I think history has shown, it is what we don't see in 2012 but will be everyday reality in 2025 that most people are worried about. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it is hard to cork back up. I am a cynic when it comes to placing power into unknown hands. My Canadian government alone has hardened me to these realities. Yours should have by now as well. Right now, my content is not censored. Right now I can type this post without worry. Will it be that way in 2025? I hope so.
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#1277
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
rack gear, really you are funny. Can you sense the sarcasm? I asked you once before what your plans would be. What exactly would you propose to bring the "lawless" internet back in line?
two part solution.

1) close the loophole in the DMCA by employing a registry as Ian Suggests and/or single white list single notice registry...

2) taking down, blocking, disabling, suing, rogue sites that do not comply with the amended DMCA / registry... BY DUE PROCESS AND REVIEW WITH A COURT ISSUED ORDER

Ian Rogers: Instead of SOPA, Here's How To Combat Piracy While Encouraging An Open Internet - hypebot

it's just not that hard or complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Personally, I can't think of any organisation from the USA I would trust with that huge endeavor. The people you give that power to would be 10 times worse than your tech companies have shown.
I think we're already seeing that is fundamentally a false assumption. Google has already settled a $500 Million Dollar lawsuit to avoid indictments into it's business practices.

Google To Pay $500 Million To Settle Pharma Ad Probe - Forbes

Google's Piracy Liability - Forbes

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Wasn't it your wall street that plunged the entire world into a 5 year recession with no signs of improvement?
not my wall street and I'm not getting into any specific politics. but again, I'm interested to see where occupy takes this once the album comes out. I can't imagine they'll be supporting massive corporate tech companies over artists rights and labor issues for fair compensation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
There is not one organisation powerful enough to control the lawless internet, that anyone in their right mind would ever trust.
the government in France got yahoo to change their practices, within France, to forbid the sale of "memorabilia" that is illegal inside the country... this despite yahoo stating repeatedly it was technically impossible, they ultimately figured it out when facing serious consequences... seems like France is a step ahead... France gets to determine what is acceptable on the internet, within it's borders... there's tons of filtering already happening... just not any that protects artists rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Seriously, give your head a shake man. A "Big Brother" of any kind will be a disaster in this scenario.
we're already there and if you don't think so, do something really, really naughty and let me know how long it takes for the black vans and helicopters to show up from three letter agencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Can't you see that?
clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
What's in it for you?
the protection of artists rights from the tyranny of tech companies ripping off artists without consent or compensation. a better world where all artists in the digital age have equal rights to compensation and the opportunities to have professional creative careers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Quit crying about the artists and come clean. What's in it for you?
Funny that you think so little of artists having the ability to be paid for their work. Sometimes people do things for the right and ethical reason. I've spent my entire career in bands, working with artists, making music, participating in art projects and my life has been enriched for the better as a result.

I believe it is unethical and immoral to steal the labor of artists and deprive them the opportunity to make a living. I'm not sure who would support tech corporations making millions while ripping off artists without consent or compensation.

it's just that simple.
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#1278
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Actually it's a very hot topic.
They are collecting reams of data about you, where you go everyday, and what you do. If you don't sign up to Google's privacy policies you can't have a YouTube account, or even use an Android powered phone!
Meanwhile, you cry about a loss of privacy due to the entertainment industry.
You're swallowing the lines fed you by the most powerful, most wealthy companies in America.
that's right. if the service is free, YOU are the product... think about it.
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#1279
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Yes I agree to that to a point. However, they are using that data for their own big business type ROI, in marketing and trying to make money easier and faster. I don't have a problem with that. Its not google I am worried about.
you should be, and eventually, you will be - remember this day and this conversation...
#1280
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
What will happen when you put huge power into a few hands?
That's never been the aim of the music industry.
However, it is the stated aim of the web companies.
Web companies already censor some content in countries where they would rather stay in business than be banned from operating.
Google, Facebook, Twitter, they are not freedom fighters, they are full blown capitalist money making machines. If future Canadian or US governments ask them to curtail freedoms or lose profitable parts of their business, which do you think they'll choose?
Paypal has sent Wikileaks to the poorhouse.
You're looking the wrong way!
#1281
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
SOPA is dead.
Hadopi (in France) doesn't restrict your web privacy, only the 'freedom' to rip off content creators.
So, you are most fearful of the entertainment industry controlling your internet freedom and privacy? But you don't think Wikileaks and Anonymous incidents will impact the web, or Apple, Google, Facebook's battle for financial supremecy? The Facebook mission statement is to be the one stop shop for all your internet use. They want to control the whole web.
Sopa is dead, but what is next? What will be the effect of the precedent you set by giving huge power to RIAA and MPAA? What kind of spinoffs can we expect to see after the fact? These are all legitmate concerns to most people, because they see what happens when there is no bouncer at the velvet ropes. I know I am cynical. I have to be. I live in Canada, and I get to watch Stephen Harper operate daily. Some days I feel like we are already a communist state. We just haven't come out and said it yet. lol I wish you would admit there is another side to this coin. As for facebook running the internet, the content will never be there. They like to think it is, but in reality it is less than an hour a day for most people. I think its value is largely inflated on paper, much like the US Real estate market 5 years ago. There are no real facts there to back up its reported value. Its all a mirage. IMO. Plus there is no GS on facebook. How can it ever rule the internet?
#1282
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
Funny that you think so little of artists having the ability to be paid for their work. Sometimes people do things for the right and ethical reason. I've spent my entire career in bands, working with artists, making music, participating in art projects and my life has been enriched for the better as a result.

I believe it is unethical and immoral to steal the labor of artists and deprive them the opportunity to make a living. I'm not sure who would be opposed to that and support tech corporations making millions while ripping off artists without consent or compensation.

it's just that simple.
As I have said, I am an artist, and I am all for artists being compensated for their work. Forgive me, but I lost my rose coloured glasses a long time ago. Where is all this at in Congress by the way? What are the reasons for this not gaining a head of steam in Washington?
#1283
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Seriously man, you are beyond naive.

The entertainment industry has no plans to curtail your privacy.
Meanwhile, the tech industries have seemingly succeeded in diverting your attention towards 'evil labels' and away from their own sordid practice.
Your privacy is already hugely compromised by the internet.
No duh. But this is a new one, Chrisso: using the point I made, against me. Makes absolutely no sense. Re-read my post. I have no illusions about Big Evil Tech, that is very clear in every thing I have posted about them. But, I also say they have showed constraint in handing over private info to government agencies. That is just fact. Enough constraint? Doubtful. We are not in disagreement on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple all have embedded software to track your every move geographically, and track your movements on the internet.
If you search for alcohol rehabilitation or abortion clinics using Google, the next time you visit google, even to search for local pizza parlours, you'll find pop-up ads for alcohol and abortion clinics.
Wow, really? I didn't know that. Shocking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The social media, like Twitter and Google already censor web content to suit local host countries like China. Do they do that because they are more passionate about freedoms than the entertainment industry? No they do it because they are most passionate about big profits, and will do just about anything to be a powerful force in every country on the planet, no matter what the norms of freedom of speech are in those countries.
Eh - yeah, we all know this, Chrisso. It doesn't change the fact that these companies are but clusters of molecules in virtually infinite cyberspace, and that the real web is created out of the passion and hard work of millions. They haven't gone anywhere, and they also have no illusions about big tech - because big tech ripped off all their great ideas.

About as far off topic as is possible: Those Toontrack midi-packs. Can they bought, downloaded and used as midi-files, or are they only for use within the EZdrummer program?
#1284
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1284
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Rack gear: would you care to clarify what exactly the occupy album has to do with supporting big tech over artists, and which possible scenario that could play out would support that hypothetical assertion?
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#1285
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
As I have said, I am an artist, and I am all for artists being compensated for their work. Forgive me, but I lost my rose coloured glasses a long time ago. Where is all this at in Congress by the way? What are the reasons for this not gaining a head of steam in Washington?
the RIAA are grossly mismanaged. they've done a lot of good work on behalf of artists like closing down limewire, napster, grokster, kazaa, the megupload bust, etc. they've also been supporting donations to music cares and naras...

but on policy the RIAA is so completely mismanaged they do themselves more harm than good - they need to realize the issue is not about labels, it's about artists. empowered artists are the basis for a healthy music ecosystem.

the most successful labels in history were run by guys who were fans and who respected artists... jack holzman/elektra, herb alpert & jerry moss/A&M, seymour stein/sire, daniel miller/mute and many more...

artists are the fundamental foundation of the entire business, without recognizing and supporting artists rights the whole thing is a house of cards where everyone loses, but the artists lose first and the most... so that's where the solution has to start.

The RIAA doesn't have an ounce of goodwill left. If they were smart, they would look at practices inside the industry and advocate for artists first and then let the rest work itself out - even if that's bad for labels in the short term. where we are headed there are no isolated winners. everyone wins or everyone loses.

but... make no mistake about it, more legislation is coming... it may come from big pharma, it may come w/ an anti-cyber terrorism bill, but it's coming...

I'd prefer it comes from the orientation of artists rights and addresses all stakeholders in the ecosystem fairly. but as yet, the deck has been stacked in favor of big tech ripping off artists without consent or compensation for over a decade.
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#1286
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
Rack gear: would you care to clarify what exactly the occupy album has to do with supporting big tech over artists, and which possible scenario that could play out would support that hypothetical assertion?
Occupation Records shuns Apple, Amazon over 'labor violations' - Media News - Digital Spy

the occupy movement is appears to be a labor movement, and artists rights are essentially a labor issue. I see occupy aligning with labor and unions (like the musicians union for example) before I see them aligning with google and those who facilitate the theft of artists work/labor. they've already come out against apple and amazon, if that's where they're starting it's hard for me to believe they're going to be supporting other less artist friendly big tech... but I guess we'll see...
#1287
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #1287
Lives for gear
 
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Location: Baltimore
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unitymusic is offline
There are multiple occupy benefits set to come out, as far as I know all facilitated by different people. Maybe that plays well into their "leaderless movement", and maybe that's the point. From how I see it, occupy alligns with the opportunity to have an opinion, more than it does any specific opinion. Maybe that's why they aren't getting much done? No direction. I don't know, I'm not directly involved I just pay attention and form my own opinion.
#1288
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
  #1288
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Liquid360 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
There are multiple occupy benefits set to come out, as far as I know all facilitated by different people. Maybe that plays well into their "leaderless movement", and maybe that's the point. From how I see it, occupy alligns with the opportunity to have an opinion, more than it does any specific opinion. Maybe that's why they aren't getting much done? No direction. I don't know, I'm not directly involved I just pay attention and form my own opinion.
The Occupy movement seems pretty random to me. And even when they start a protest that might actually mean something, all the "Nu-Hippies" come out of the woodwork and make them look bad. I mean, I can see a businessman on his way to work and seriously face-palming the guys, cause' it looks more like a stoner party than a protest.



Looking at this last page... Geez Rack, did you finally crush all your opponents?
#1289
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
  #1289
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axs1 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Yes I agree to that to a point. However, they are using that data for their own big business type ROI, in marketing and trying to make money easier and faster. I don't have a problem with that. Its not google I am worried about. Its the future internet entities (that don't exist under current laws) that will profit from the ability to run roughshod over your privacy. It is the unknown that most are concerned about. What will happen when you put huge power into a few hands? What will distinguish us from N Korea after certain people are allowed to flex their muscles legally? I think history has shown, it is what we don't see in 2012 but will be everyday reality in 2025 that most people are worried about. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it is hard to cork back up. I am a cynic when it comes to placing power into unknown hands. My Canadian government alone has hardened me to these realities. Yours should have by now as well. Right now, my content is not censored. Right now I can type this post without worry. Will it be that way in 2025? I hope so.
Exactly. And taken to its extreme, in 2025 you won't be able to, because Korg and Roland have by then lobbied their way to the people behind the legislation, and having reached the conclusion that it is not in their interest to have a bunch of people freely discussing and possibly bashing their products, they will then be able to shut down gearslutz - while remaining fully within the law. They can for example work for an amendment that entails that wrongful criticism of their products is slanderous and make the case that this persons slander has unjustly effected their sales, thus should be held accountable. However, not only this person - gearslutz should too - because they facilitate this type of behavior, which they can "prove" unrightfully affects their sales at no fault of their own.
Again, this is part of what people fear - that it is in a lot of businesses interest to turn the internet into a one way medium - like TV (except for the cash registers, of course, where you will be allowed to upload your money). Because the internet hasn't done them any good, the politicians and a great many businesses have this problem in common. Ofcourse, my example is purely an analogy, I have no idea if gear producers have any desire what so ever to control the net.
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Thread Starter
#1290
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
  #1290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axs1 View Post
Exactly. And taken to its extreme, in 2025 you won't be able to, because Korg and Roland have by then lobbied their way to the people behind the legislation, and having reached the conclusion that it is not in their interest to have a bunch of people freely discussing and possibly bashing their products, they will then be able to shut down gearslutz - while remaining fully within the law. They can for example work for an amendment that entails that wrongful criticism of their products is slanderous and make the case that this persons slander has unjustly effected their sales, thus should be held accountable. However, not only this person - gearslutz should too - because they facilitate this type of behavior, which they can "prove" unrightfully affects their sales at no fault of their own.
Again, this is part of what people fear - that it is in a lot of businesses interest to turn the internet into a one way medium - like TV (except for the cash registers, of course, where you will be allowed to upload your money). Because the internet hasn't done them any good, the politicians and a great many businesses have this problem in common. Ofcourse, my example is purely an analogy, I have no idea if gear producers have any desire what so ever to control the net.
I understand your fear, but stopping theft and protecting rights are not at odds with the first amendment no matter how many lies are told to the contrary...

you are now doing what you accuse me of (wrongly, I might ad). this is not an either/or, it's in addition too. we can protect artists rights AND have freedom of speech. however it is the big business interests raiding your privacy for profit also want to make sure they are never held accountable for the wrong doing of stealing from artists, or facilitating it.

the false dichotomy that you would have to choose between the two is promoted by big tech to preserve their tyranny over artists and profit illegally from them. but it's just not true.

artists rights have nothing to do with free speech or censorship and few artists, if any, would agree to any kind of censorship.

the truth is these two concepts have never been at odds and have always existed together:
Copyright and the First Amendment: The Unexplored, Unbroken Historical Practice, Part 4 | Copyhype
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