copyright question

[halfguard]

i know this was discussed a little on another thread, but im still a little confused. i went to the ascap site and im not exactly sure what i was reading. im not sure if i should send my stuff to the library of congress or to ascap, or both. if so, wich should i do first. next, i believe i need to start a publishing company. im a little lost. any help is appreciated......................

[con?one]

the l.o.c is the only way to register a copyright in the united states. whether an organization does it for you, or you do it yourself, it's the only way to register a work.

[Albert]

Library of Congress for copyright, ASCAP or BMI for publishing company.

Here's the LOC website, all the information you could possibly want on copyright registration.

http://www.copyright.gov/

[babyface_finsta]

Have fun dealing with the LOC... I'm fortunate enough to basically live down the street... so I just go there in person and we fill out my forms together (with a clerk)... ... before that I always had some sorta problem...

[illynoise]

Don't bother to copyright if your just starting out, it's a waste of time unless your music is getting out there. I've sent out at least 10 copyright works registrations without getting anything back saying that they even received it.

If someone steals your music, even if it's copyrighted, it's hard to get your money anyways. I've been dealing with a blatent copyright infringement case for 10 years, it's just a pain and I don't care anymore. Universal will never pay me, because they can lawyer me to brokeville. If I had the computer files then I would have more of a case and unfortunately an MMT8 didn't have that.

Save your money, and don't mess with BMI or ASCAP until you have something on TV or Radio, cause that's a waste of time also. BMI is fronting on my last quarterly, so I'm not happy with them right now!

BaseJase
Illynoise

[Samplecraze]

I had no idea it was that bad in the US.

In the UK, all published material is treated very seriously.............

MCPS have always taken care of all my material so I am surprised to hear of this apathy at service.

[con?one]

Originally Posted by illynoise

Don't bother to copyright if your just starting out, it's a waste of time unless your music is getting out there. I've sent out at least 10 copyright works registrations without getting anything back saying that they even received it.

If someone steals your music, even if it's copyrighted, it's hard to get your money anyways. I've been dealing with a blatent copyright infringement case for 10 years, it's just a pain and I don't care anymore. Universal will never pay me, because they can lawyer me to brokeville. If I had the computer files then I would have more of a case and unfortunately an MMT8 didn't have that.

Save your money, and don't mess with BMI or ASCAP until you have something on TV or Radio, cause that's a waste of time also. BMI is fronting on my last quarterly, so I'm not happy with them right now!

BaseJase
Illynoise

i couldn't disagree more... then again, my checks are always on time

Originally Posted by illynoise

Don't bother to copyright if your just starting out, it's a waste of time unless your music is getting out there. I've sent out at least 10 copyright works registrations without getting anything back saying that they even received it.

If someone steals your music, even if it's copyrighted, it's hard to get your money anyways. I've been dealing with a blatent copyright infringement case for 10 years, it's just a pain and I don't care anymore. Universal will never pay me, because they can lawyer me to brokeville. If I had the computer files then I would have more of a case and unfortunately an MMT8 didn't have that.

Save your money, and don't mess with BMI or ASCAP until you have something on TV or Radio, cause that's a waste of time also. BMI is fronting on my last quarterly, so I'm not happy with them right now!

BaseJase
Illynoise

You should have only had to go to court 1 time fo your infringement.

So you're saying because it has proved a lengthy process for YOU others should not protect themselves?

I absolutely disagree

[RIZ Records]

Even if you havent received a notification back from the Library of Congress, i dont think that means its not protected. I guess if anybody steals your work you can get in touch with the LOC about it right and get the confirmation from them? I doubt you send them your $30 and they dont protect your music. Who knows, i sent all my stuff to them a few months ago so im guessing im protected. If you have a hit and somebody steals it and it makes major noise, i would pay whatever for the the lawyer because you'll bet getting back a lot more from your stolen music. I think so anyways.

[illynoise]

what I'm saying is that just like any other contract or "right" that you have, you must have the power to mitigate the situation.

Otherwise, you can have my way of thinking: Do what you want to do and make as much money you can, and let the chips fall where they may.....We'll see, I got MCA records (Universal) Koch Dist. Sony Music Germany, and now BMI oweing me some dough.

Get your money up front always, and don't pay anyone until someone knocks at the door. Then play dumb.

Glad to see your quarterly's getting paid. I need to sign up for that direct deposit.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[illynoise]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

You should have only had to go to court 1 time fo your infringement.

So you're saying because it has proved a lengthy process for YOU others should not protect themselves?

I absolutely disagree

No, I'm saying that even if you have all of the proper payperwork you still have to have a better lawyer, no matter WHAT.

Waiste your money on copyrights, go ahead. Don't matter to me...... We've sold 20, 000 records in the last year and we haven't paid a dime to anyone, but ourselves. But we don't sample much either.


BaseJase
Illynoise

[Albert]

It can take the Library of Congress quite a while to get the confirmation forms back, but in my experience they've always sent them. You have to consider the amount of forms they are dealing with. BMI has always been straight up with me as far as payment schedule as well.

I'm sorry that you have been having such a bad experience illynoise, but I think your advice about copyrights is dead wrong. I've never heard of anyone not getting the forms back. If your work was properly registered the forms will be on file with the LOC, even if for some reason you didn't get them back. You should be able to do a search of the LOC and come up with them.

It doesn't matter whether you are starting out or not, it is always better to have the paperwork done properly. Quite a while ago I wrote a small piece for piano, which I dutifully registered with the LOC as usual. That music ended up on a Grammy nominated album years later. There was no question about rights or who owned what. You simply don't know what might happen to a piece of music, how it might be used or what might happen to it.

illynoise, I think you are leaving yourself wide open by not registering your album that has sold 20,000 copies. You can send a copy of the CD in with a form PA, and also with a form SR, for a total of $60. It's so easy I don't understand why you wouldn't, even despite your previous issue with Universal. Perhaps especially because of your issue with Universal.

If anyone were to want to license your music, for a film soundtrack or whatever, one of the standard clauses is that you have to have the rights clear. Without any registration with the LOC it's just your word against whoever. Licensing is a big source of income for any music, and you've created a bit of a grey cloud over your rights by not doing the paperwork.

[halfguard]

when sending in stuff to the library of congress, do you do it one song at a time. that can get expensive pretty quick. for example beat cds. how would you go about doing that? thanx for any help......

[robmix]

Originally Posted by halfguard

when sending in stuff to the library of congress, do you do it one song at a time. that can get expensive pretty quick. for example beat cds. how would you go about doing that? thanx for any help......

You can send in a collection or anthology. Make sure you send in the SR form, which covers the actual recording. The PA form only covers melody and lyrics.

[halfguard]

so i need to send both forms?

[Albert]

As robmix says you can register your music as an anthology or collection. Be sure to name and number everything clearly so if you need to reference it later, identifying things will be as easy as possible.

As far as both forms:

Form PA registers the music itself. i.e. the melody, harmony, lyrics if there are any, etc.

Form SR registers the recording of the music.

So in a typical example you would send sheet music along with form PA and a CD recording along with form SR. However, I believe the copyright office does accept recordings along with form PA. But just be aware that the recording sent along with form PA is to register the underlying music, not the recording itself. While the recording sent with form SR is to register the recording, not the underlying music work.

So if you are the composer of the music, AND you made a recording of your work that you intend to sell publically, or will air or be licensed, then yes you would do both forms. But just a scratch recording that will not be commercially used, I don't think you need to register that. Only if it is going "out there" commercially. That's my understanding of it anyway.

[Scinx]

I was just searching around on a certain topic, and came across this thread. Just for future reference sake, I wanted to clarify the thought about sending in PA and SR.
Per Circular 56A

"Although they are separate works, a musical composition and a sound recording may be registered together on a single application if ownership of the copyrights in both is exactly the same. To register a single claim in both works, complete Form SR. Give information about the author(s) of both the musical composition and the sound recording."

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ56a.html

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by halfguard

when sending in stuff to the library of congress, do you do it one song at a time. that can get expensive pretty quick. for example beat cds. how would you go about doing that? thanx for any help......

you can do a "collection" or "compilation album" . i talked to a clerk and she told to wirte the title of the songs on the back of the forms or in another form if i need it to. still $35.




basically sending your song to the library if congress is a legal way of making sure a standard third party has your song with written info on the songs saying the song is yours.
same deal when sending yourself mail of the CD and not opening the package.
copyrited is the "idea" on "print". we all have ideas. but when you write them down, record them etc you have a physical presence of your idea. that is a copyrite.
but anyone can say they wrote "thriller" and they deserve 100million bucks. so thats why there is a copyrite office. which is a legal govermantal third party.
if not universal can have a copyrite offiice and be alittle bias.


this doesnt mean your on the clear. if you use a sample or someoneuses your song you still have to prove its yours and a way of doing it is to go to court and the court will grab the stuff in the library of congress you sent and if it looks like its yours then you win. its only worth it if you can pay the lawyer afterworth.

but check this out.

say you sequenced the dopest beat. your friend says he'll add some lyrics and sings a chorus and its sooo good that mcdonalds uses for thier TV comercial paying about $90K.
then your friend says, this song is mine ,, all mine. i sent it to the copyrite office. (and you also sent it to the copyrite office....)

guess who wins?

your buddy who did/sang the lyrics and melody /chorus.


if mc donalds is selling burgers cause the melody has a great hook then the idea was of the guy who did the lyrics and melody.

when the track or beat is a sound recording.

its like the bass player or rythmn guitar who just plays the chords of a song the singer wrote.

so be carful with that. always have a 50/50 agreement with a "song" copyrite with MC's.


so once you prove a song is yours and there is no doubt about it. and its playing in the radio and clubs etc...
who is going to pay you?

thats where BMI and ASCAP come in. they listen and calculate how much you should get paid. those companies get thier money from venues and TV radio etc
.


record companies will distribute your CD and promote it. theyll LEND YOU MONEY like a bank so you can do a record. and with the sales of that record you pay your debt to the record company. after you pay the record company then you get paid. chances of that happening . not much. so , the only money you can get is from a song copyrite.

[illynoise]

Wow I was angry! I'm happy now and anyone notice checks are coming earlier than the used to?

I like BMI, but they were trippin at the time, I'm happy with them now.....They must have read my post here!


BaseJase

[verb1]

Here's a related question. If your song is sample-based, how do you copyright it? As an arrangement only? I hear you can't copyright sampled work as a song anymore unless you already cleared the sample. True?

By the way, there's no harm in signing up for BMI even if you have nothing on TV or radio. It's free and doesn't take long.

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by J Twin

Here's a related question. If your song is sample-based, how do you copyright it? As an arrangement only? I hear you can't copyright sampled work as a song anymore unless you already cleared the sample. True?

By the way, there's no harm in signing up for BMI even if you have nothing on TV or radio. It's free and doesn't take long.

the tricky part is that SONG and RECORDINGS are separate. you hum the melody of happy birthday and you have to pay warner brothers (yes , they own the copyrite).

you sample happy birthday sang by jay-z (or whoever) and you have to pay jay-z AND warner brothers.


pay up means also clearing up the copyrite. there is a department just for that at every record/publishing company.

[verb1]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

the tricky part is that SONG and RECORDINGS are separate. you hum the melody of happy birthday and you have to pay warner brothers (yes , they own the copyrite).

you sample happy birthday sang by jay-z (or whoever) and you have to pay jay-z AND warner brothers.


pay up means also clearing up the copyrite. there is a department just for that at every record/publishing company.

so what's the bottom line? can you legally copyright a sample-based song? can you copyright it as an arrangement? those of you who are selling sample-based tracks, holla at me. how are you handling the legal aspects?

[illynoise]

There is an artist that has sold almost 90,000 copies of his last album, he's sold somewhere in the neighboorhood of 150,000 copies and he's never cleared a sample or went to the LOC for papers. It's called "under the radar" level. Is there that many people that are doing those kind of numbers around here?

I'm not saying to do this, because it's risky.

BTW it's harmless, but useless to sign with BMI or ASCAP until you have something playing. If you do get something played on TV it takes about 3 quarters to get paid from it and you'll have time to clear it and sign up for those guys.

Base

[billwarner]

One distinction thats needs to be made is copyrighting and registering are quite different animals. Since 1976, a work was copyrighted when it is put in 'fixed/tangible" form (musical notation, wax cylander, mp3, etc).

Bill

warnerworks.net

[adrianex]

Originally Posted by J Twin

so what's the bottom line? can you legally copyright a sample-based song? can you copyright it as an arrangement? those of you who are selling sample-based tracks, holla at me. how are you handling the legal aspects?

As far as I know, you can copyrigth the song, but you'll have to pay part of your earnings to who ever owns the rigth of the sample you are using.

I think also the Harry Fox Agency come into the mix too for mechanicals rigths. I could be wrong.

[Freddy P]

Since you can copyright a compilation, is the song still copyrighted when its taken out of the compilation.

For instance say I send a beat cd to someone. All the songs on the cd were copyrighted in the compilation cd. Now if say the person takes 3 out of the 10 tracks out are they still copyrighted? If not, is the only way to copyright every track with its own form?

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Freddy P

Since you can copyright a compilation, is the song still copyrighted when its taken out of the compilation.

For instance say I send a beat cd to someone. All the songs on the cd were copyrighted in the compilation cd. Now if say the person takes 3 out of the 10 tracks out are they still copyrighted? If not, is the only way to copyright every track with its own form?

As you take them out of the compilation and before they are of a new usage,have a PA and an SR form both filled out for every song that is taken out.

FYI I always copyright each individual song as soon as it is written and the songwriters agreement is signed if there are co writers.

This is extremely important so that all participants dont give you any grief down the road.
Just remember that the words are worth half the song and the music the other, so if there are more than one person authoring a a significant contribution to each element of the composition, then they should split that respective part of the song,ie words or music.

This can get tricky in the hip hop/urban genre when one person may do the bassline,another one does the drum groove,some one else does other parts of the beat.

Personally,I stay away from that kind of mess.

[djburnone]

is myspace a way of copyrighting your work, somebody told me it was, just wanted to be sure.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by halfguard

so i need to send both forms?

No you can use the SR form to register both the recording and the song itself, assuming you are the author of both. If not, then separate forms.

TH

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by djburnone

is myspace a way of copyrighting your work, somebody told me it was, just wanted to be sure.

Just to be clear, your work is automatically copyrighted as soon as it is put into "fixed form" (like written down or recorded.) You have to prove that someone who stoled your song had access to it.

The catch is, while it IS copyrighted at that point, to go to court, you DO have to have it filed with the LOC. So, if you just wrote a song and you are not sending it out, you don't have to worry about sending bucks in to the LOC. But as soon as you start sending it out, it's a good idea because you'll need it if you have to go to court.

Filing it officially for it be copyrighted was done away with in the 70s.

TH