Study confirms impact of HADOPI law on curbing piracy

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

But there are real world legal consequences. The fact that they didn't need to be used proves that the law worked very effectively as a deterrent.

Bad logic again: Maybe it just proves that the HADOPI agency didn't dare to bring anyone to court for fear of the case getting rejected or losing if it didn't! (Which would completely destroy the whole thing).


Alistair

[spaceman]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Bad logic again: Maybe it just proves that the HADOPI agency didn't dare to bring anyone to court for fear of the case getting rejected or losing if it didn't! (Which would completely destroy the whole thing).

How would you know ? In the end it works, without shedding blood, and that's all that matters , no ?


I mean, seriously , this not directed at you , but i find it very disturbing that some people here in GS seem to be deeply saddened and bothered by the idea of artists being enabled to make a living, and actually rejoice and celebrate any news about things getting worse for artists...

I find this really odd .. what is it that would make someone think like that ? Is it :
- a case of jealousy ? envy ? " If i can't make it, i wanna make sure no one else on earth will ever be able to ! "
- or do some people have direct interests with organisations that make money out of piracy, so every nickel that goes in artists pockets, is a nickel that doesn't go into theirs ?
- ... ??? This is really weird...

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Maybe it just proves that the HADOPI agency didn't dare to bring anyone to court for fear of the case getting rejected or losing if it didn't! (Which would completely destroy the whole thing).

Gee maybe.

HADOPI doesn't need to bring anybody to court by the way, they simply shut off the person's internet access. The only way it goes to court is if the user appeals "Appeal to a court is possible only during the third phase of the action (after the blocking of internet access) and an appeal can result in shortening but not cancellation of the blocking. The burden of proof is on the appellant."

[RRCHON]

The article from le Monde pretty much states that:

Sales of iPhones and new versions of iPhones correlate directly to the peaks in France's growth spurts. It also does state that people install iTunes and then have an easier purchase point to load up their iPhones with legal music downloaded from the iTunes store.

It pretty much also states that the study was done by Americans and probably funded by people who have a vested interest in arguing for the conclusion it reached. In other words it says what the people who paid for it should say.

Also when you buy an iPhone say from FNAC you usually get a card that has a few Euros on it to use at the iTunes store. Also seems to me a lot more people have iPhones in France than people have broadband (this comes from observations of what my family members who still live there have available to them.)

There is also the issue of obscure genera and how uncommon they are on the internet.

The article concludes that it's all still up in the air.

L'effet existe indéniablement, mais il est en revanche extrêmement difficile de le quantifier. Les chiffres publiés par l'IFPI démontrent surtout qu'au-delà de la "peur du gendarme", le développement d'une offre légale simple d'utilisation est l'un des axes majeurs de l'augmentation des revenus de la musique.

There is an undeniable effect that is extremely hard to quantify. The numbers published by IFPI want to indicate that the "fear of state police" is driving factor and the development of a legal offer that is easy and simple to use has nothing to do with it, when it comes to increased revenue for music sales.


Also in every chart - the revenue trends are going up, which begs the question of how one can quantify ever increasing loss when sales seem to be trending up steadily regardless of laws.

[spaceman]

Originally Posted by RRCHON

The article from le Monde pretty much states that:

....

lol... Your interpretation of a Google translation is very funny. I don't have the time to do a proper translation right now, but i'll do later...

PS : oh actually , it's not even a translation, you're completely inventing stuff that don't exist..Very funny....
( No, you're wrong, the article says that aliens are among us, and they are eating little babies )

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by spaceman

How would you know?

I don't need to know. All I need to do is disprove the claim by giving and alternative explanation. Which I did. That is logic 101.

In the end it works, without shedding blood, and that's all that matters , no ?

That is way too simplistic. Maybe, assuming the laws had any effect on piracy, what we see towards the right of the graph where the lines between French sales and other country sales get closer and closer again to each other, is what happens when the law never gets applied. After a while people don't believe it any more and we are back at square zero.

I mean, seriously , this not directed at you , but i find it very disturbing that some people here in GS seem to be deeply saddened and bothered by the idea of artists being enabled to make a living, and actually rejoice and celebrate any news about things getting worse for artists...

Bullshit. Show me one person to whom the above applies. Being happy a really crappy bill like SOPA gets dropped is not in any way a rejoicing about things getting worse for artists. That is just more of the backwards logic so often demonstrated in these threads.

- ... ??? This is really weird...

What is really weird is that you even believe something like that.

Alistair

[RRCHON]

Ca ne fait pas tellement de temps que j'habite l' Amérique je vais oublier une langue natale.

C'est bien possible que nique complètement mon orthographe, et même un peut mon grammaire après vingt ans, mais j'arrive encore a comprendre ce qui est bien placer en noir et blanc devant moi.

Arrêtez de frère le con et gardes les commentaire merdique au minimum s'il vous plaît, restons gentils et parlons de ce qui est bien marquer sans essayer d'embrouiller la chose dans la politique personnelle.


But none the less it has been twenty years I look forward to your synopsis and how shockingly different it will be.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

Gee maybe.

HADOPI doesn't need to bring anybody to court by the way, they simply shut off the person's internet access.

Wrong. The HADOPI agency can do no more than send letters. After that it has to go to court. You clearly didn't even read the paper (or other sources).

From the paper: "The law empowers the HADOPI administrative authority to send warnings to identified infringers and transfer the case to the court in cases of repeat infringement."

The only way it goes to court is if the user appeals "Appeal to a court is possible only during the third phase of the action (after the blocking of internet access) and an appeal can result in shortening but not cancellation of the blocking. The burden of proof is on the appellant."

Do you have a source for this misinformation? Or did you just add the bit between parenthesis? Giving fines is also part of the third stage.

According to the paper, no one has received a fine. No one has had their internet cut off. All they have done so far is send threatening letters. A paper tiger as it stands for now.

Alistair

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Do you have a source for this misinformation?

Wikipedia. It was the best english language breakdown of how the law works that I could find, but if you have something better I would be interested to see it.
HADOPI law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by UnderTow

You clearly didn't even read the paper (or other sources).

Pretty rich coming from you.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by RRCHON

The numbers published by IFPI want to indicate that the "fear of state police" is driving factor and the development of a legal offer that is easy and simple to use has nothing to do with it, when it comes to increased revenue for music sales.

For the record, the sentence you quoted should read as follows in English: The numbers published by IFPI demonstrate above all that beyond the "fear of the police", the development of a legal easy-to-use solution is one of the major axis of the increase of music revenues.

Alors Spaceman, comment trouves tu ma compréhension du Français? Pas mal hein? D'ailleurs, malgré le fait que tu semble résider a Paris, je dirait même que ma compréhension de texte est nettement meilleurs que la tienne vu certaines erreurs graves d'interprétation de l'article du Monde que tu a démontré.

Also in every chart - the revenue trends are going up, which begs the question of how one can quantify ever increasing loss when sales seem to be trending up steadily regardless of laws.

Those are only on-line sales. The problem is that physical sales have dropped more than digital sales have gained.

Alistair

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

Wikipedia. It was the best english language breakdown of how the law works that I could find, but if you have something better I would be interested to see it.
HADOPI law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Wikipedia article is outdated. The law proposals were amended before they were accepted. Unfortunately my sources are French articles.

Pretty rich coming from you.

Excuse me but you will have to take back that allegation as I have clearly addressed many of the points of the paper. Hard to do without reading it!

Alistair

[spaceman]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Maybe, assuming the laws had any effect on piracy, what we see towards the right of the graph where the lines between French sales and other country sales get closer and closer again to each other, is what happens when the law never gets applied. After a while people don't believe it any more and we are back at square zero.

...
According to the paper, no one has received a fine. No one has had their internet cut off. All they have done so far is send threatening letters. A paper tiger as it stands for now.

You're very confusing and confused... You're against Sopa because it's too extreme, and you're against Hadopi because it's not tough enough
You're right ! I say the bastards should be beheaded in a public place, like in the good ol' days !!!!

That phrase translation was much better . Tu a fait du bon boulot, bravo
( although the phrase "la peur du gendarme " is difficult to translate in english , because it's not litteral , it's an expression that's used more like a metaphor, so it's not really "fear of the police", more like "fear of being caught with your hands in the cookie jar" and closer to the old popular figure of the policeman straight out of a Chaplin movie)

As for how the law works, it's described very precisely on the website of the source itself, Hadopi
basically , 1-2-3 then your case is sent to the judge. Who can go even higher than fines or ordering an internet disconnection if needed ( but that's very rare )
There are also plenty of studies , and surveys that shows 53% of people stop pirating after getting just one warning.

You can believe whatever suits you.
I'm too tired of this arguing. Going to bed.

[RRCHON]

Thanks for looking at it differently, I kind of wanted to stay on text and not make that statement right out since it draws a conclusion, which I didn't think the article did well enough to prove that point.

TBH physical sales are down because they are a bit of a bother, I've bought some hard to find stuff as hard copy on CD, I used to raid the FNAC and buy tons of CD every-time I went to visit the family, but now most of the stuff is available as part of a digital catalog somewhere, and I can shop from home and get my fill.

My father who was always on a kick about needing to get the old stuff before it disappeared used to do the same to an even greater extent and now even he uses the iTunes and buys with the "télécharger cet Album" option.

I am going to date myself here, but I remember saving money to go to a chain of stores that was around in Virginia back in the day called Roses' to go buy cassettes. I had to ride my bike, before I could drive, cross a busy intersection, and then sift through racks of tapes in huge anti-theft armatures, and then hide the fact that I went all the way out the strip mall from my parent who would be very cross if they found out I went through all that traffic and danger in order to get those tapes.

Where I grew up going to the store to get stuff isn't as easy as it is in cities. I wish I had it as easy as kids do today, and how many Albums did I buy for 1 or 2 good songs when I could not have been more interested in the rest of it. Today's choices are more granular, by the track, and the facility of getting digital media instantly when you want to get it from iTunes is too much of a temptation for most people to resist.

Though there are quality issues, there are alternatives, FLAC or some form of lossless codec is going to get pushed by someone at some point, FFS even my car can read USB keys, or take the bluetooth signal from the iphone for audio playback.

The world is just moving away from hard copy, and it is a shame because sometimes I did buy a tape or CD and found treasures in it I would have never found if I just went for the song that attracted me to the album in the first place.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by spaceman

You're very confusing and confused...

Only if you try to understand the subject and my views in simplistic terms.

As for how the law works, it's described very precisely on the website of the source itself, Hadopi

The HADOPI site was one of my sources. :-)

There are also plenty of studies , and surveys that shows 53% of people stop pirating after getting just one warning.

But that might change if people start believing (or rather realising) that they will never get punished.

Going to bed.

Good night. :-)

Alistair