Megauploads closed down

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Murphster

Which is why I am quite happy for the record companies to go to the wall.

Despite what they say, it is clear they are only worried about themselves. I think the artists are in fine shape looking forward. New technology will bring new opportunity for artists to have more control over their work and their output. The new music business will see a bigger percentage of the pie go to the artists (although a much smaller pie).

The record companies have woken up too late and they have woken up to realise their business model is completely and utterly broken. And ever worse for them is the fact that other people have been busy working out solutions.

I have no sympathy for them at all. I think the future is bright.

It's amazing to me that people like believe that 15 or 20 years of lost royalties hasn't been a detriment to artists and composers, regardless of their stature or sales.

I hope you realize that some composers and artists, even long after their deals have expired, still earn revenues through publishing and record sales. To cheer for the record companies losses without fully taking into account those of whom have been thoroughly cheated is short-sighted and ill-informed.

[Camera]

Originally Posted by Murphster

Which is why I am quite happy for the record companies to go to the wall.

Despite what they say, it is clear they are only worried about themselves. I think the artists are in fine shape looking forward. New technology will bring new opportunity for artists to have more control over their work and their output. The new music business will see a bigger percentage of the pie go to the artists (although a much smaller pie).

The record companies have woken up too late and they have woken up to realise their business model is completely and utterly broken. And ever worse for them is the fact that other people have been busy working out solutions.

I have no sympathy for them at all. I think the future is bright.

I believe the pie is bigger actually. It's just that you can't get as big a slice.

Yes, we have been working out our own solutions as soon as we were given the chance.

Also, despite all of that, you actually have to work harder for it now. But the rewards finally come back to the artist.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Camera

And my company worked on 437 individual projects just last year.

Some full albums, some singles, some feature films.

I was just work for hire. It's been a great year.

Took on 2 new employees as well.

You have not proved anything either. Just attacked me.

I'm happy for you but in all honestly, I have no reason to believe a word you've said. I'm not saying that it's untrue, but if you want *my* respect, don't post anonymously.

Chris isn't posting anonymously. I'm not posting anonymously. I have no idea what your motivations are, what you've done in the past, etc.

My apologies but I'm just not a fan of debating a ghost.

[Murphster]

Originally Posted by Mike P

It's amazing to me that people like believe that 15 or 20 years of lost royalties hasn't been a detriment to artists and composers, regardless of their stature or sales.

I hope you realize that some composers and artists, even long after their deals have expired, still earn revenues through publishing and record sales. To cheer for the record companies losses without fully taking into account those of whom have been thoroughly cheated is short-sighted and ill-informed.

It's not that I am cheering for the record companies losses. But I am not crying for them either. And besides, I am one of those idiots who doesn't actually think piracy is costing them as much as they like to pretend. I think there are far more deep rooted reasons why music sales are down, combined with video games taking a larger share of the customers cash (While music sales have fallen, video games sales have risen to more than replace them).

I am not crying for them because I think they have failed the industry, they have failed the artists and they have failed the customer. The backlash from the artists will happen and now the technology is just about ready, I can see some major acts going independent over the coming years.

Honestly, the music industry is going to be so much better for this.

[Camera]

Originally Posted by Mike P

It's amazing to me that people like believe that 15 or 20 years of lost royalties hasn't been a detriment to artists and composers, regardless of their stature or sales.

I hope you realize that some composers and artists, even long after their deals have expired, still earn revenues through publishing and record sales. To cheer for the record companies losses without fully taking into account those of whom have been thoroughly cheated is short-sighted and ill-informed.

With as much knowledge as you seem to have in publishing, your statements seem very naive.

BTW, it's not just a little plebeian who took down Megauploads.

Record sales?..... singles are back, just like it was when this whole music business started in the early 1900's.

As far as publishing, it's not going anywhere as fast as data transfer sites. You transfer that data and it gets put on a product that has publishing rights. Now we're talking. The biggest damage Megauploads did to these conglomerates is hurt record sales.

It's like the government putting a ban on used car sales....

[Camera]

Originally Posted by Mike P

I'm happy for you but in all honestly, I have no reason to believe a word you've said. I'm not saying that it's untrue, but if you want *my* respect, don't post anonymously.

Chris isn't posting anonymously. I'm not posting anonymously. I have no idea what your motivations are, what you've done in the past, etc.

My apologies but I'm just not a fan of debating a ghost.

And I really don't need to prove myself.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Murphster

Honestly, the music industry is going to be so much better for this.

I've been hearing since 1997 and since then, things have only become worse.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Camera

With as much knowledge as you seem to have in publishing, your statements seem very naive.

BTW, it's not just a little plebeian who took down Megauploads.

Record sales?..... singles are back, just like it was when this whole music business started in the early 1900's.

As far as publishing, it's not going anywhere as fast as data transfer sites. You transfer that data and it gets put on a product that has publishing rights. Now we're talking. The biggest damage Megauploads did to these conglomerates is hurt record sales.

It's like the government putting a ban on used car sales....

There is so much nonsense in this post that it's not worth my time to respond using my iPad.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Camera

And I really don't need to prove myself.

Says you.

Keep in mind, you're on website with tens of thousands of members. It's my experience that people that actually work in this business don't hide their identity.

If you're that experienced, I'd imagine that people would take your claims and posts more seriously if you had legitimate credibility.

[Camera]

Originally Posted by Mike P

I've been hearing since 1997 and since then, things have only become worse.

Why am I not surprised after our short debate.

Hey there, you've kept it civil and I respect that very much.

I've just seen too many people (locally) that want it they way it used to be. They want that label money.

I used to get paid in 30, maybe 60 days. Now if I work on a label gig, it's 180-270 and I have to harass the whole time.

Now my clientele is mostly local/regional. Money talks, and not just immediately. It foresees the future.

[shponglefan]

Originally Posted by Murphster

Your first, not so much. I think there is a place for DRM if it is done properly. And you don't really need to stop all music being copied, that will also happen anyway. I used to make tapes for my GF all the time when I was a kid. You only want to be able to stop most people from ripping a CD in their computer. It would ensure a lot less music is out there.

First of all, why do you want to stop people from ripping music to their computer? If anything, you're punishing the people who bought the CD, not the pirates.

Second, DRM on CDs completely and utterly will not stop people from sharing music (and besides, CDs are old technology anyway; people are switching to downloads/streaming).
Once a song is converted to a DRM-free format and uploaded, it's gone, ready to spread across the Internet. No putting the genie back in that bottle.

[Camera]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Says you.

Keep in mind, you're on website with tens of thousands of members. It's my experience that people that actually work in this business don't hide their identity.

If you're that experienced, I'd imagine that people would take your claims and posts more seriously if you had legitimate credibility.

It's my experience that people who get beyond a certain point don't want their identities revealed.

I guess that's a problem I like to have...

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Camera

Piracy has been around well before the internet.

Right. One cassette at a time. hardly comparable.

Good art will prevail.

Prove me wrong.

Well over ten years into the internet. Five to ten years into piracy and all these discussions are peppered with people complaining about the 'crap music they are force fed'.
So where is this good art prevailing?????

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Camera

Why am I not surprised after our short debate.

Hey there, you've kept it civil and I respect that very much.

I've just seen too many people (locally) that want it they way it used to be. They want that label money.

I used to get paid in 30, maybe 60 days. Now if I work on a label gig, it's 180-270 and I have to harass the whole time.

Now my clientele is mostly local/regional. Money talks, and not just immediately. It foresees the future.

The iPad doesn't allow for quick responses and editing but what will say is that I sat on panels, was part of committees, etc. back in 1997-1998 and warned publishers, labels, managers and other friends in the business of the impending dangers ahead, but no one listened.

For the record, I don't have a dog in this hunt. My revenues are not reliant on mechanical sales but I am adamantly against piracy in any form.

[Camera]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Right. One cassette at a time. hardly comparable.

Whoa!! Cassettes could even stand in this debate?

Originally Posted by chrisso

Well over ten years into the internet. Five to ten years into piracy and all these discussions are peppered with people complaining about the 'crap music they are force fed'.
So where is this good art prevailing?????

What are you listening to? The radio?

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Camera

Funny how the music execs stole from their artists for SO MANY YEARS, blatantly. There are plenty of the heads that have been interviewed saying that it was common practice, "encouraging" artists to sign over their publishing.

And now that they are quickly losing their "power", they are the victims.

Sorry man. Your information is wrong.

Independent Labels are actually much worse than the Majors.

I did a record for a pretty big indie a few years back and it was a 9 point deal. 9 points!!!!!! That's ridiculous.

And I can name a bunch of indie labels that demand publishing as part of the deal. And for numbers like 5k. The Majors don't do that.

It just makes thieves feel better to think that they've done no harm. And what's funny is that they've harmed more middle class people than any of the rich ones. The rich executives saw this coming and started management companies which still bring in big money.

So when you head out to a concert this summer, keep in mind that you're paying those executives again. Unless you're stealing concert tickets too.

[GearOnTheGo]

Originally Posted by Mike P

I've been hearing since 1997 and since then, things have only become worse.

The industry is less than half the size it was a decade ago... I too wonder, when is that great turn around happening?

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Don Hills

I just took exception to you saying that it's "their" (the "tech industry") job to come up with the solutions, not "you" (the "music industry"). It's exactly the sort of bias that you've just accused me of.

Less bias.... more like normal conversational English.
I'll reword it in the most simple way I can in the hopes you'll 'get it'.

The public are angry about SOPA, the web giants are angry about SOPA.
SOPA nearly came into law. SOPA could still revive and come into law.
We have little choice but to keep pushing for measures that protect our businesses, whether they by design or accident hurt the internet or not.
The web experts and people like you can sit on the sidelines and hope one of out ideas doesn't stick. Or you can be proactive, perhaps compromise a little and help us come up with some acceptable tools and measures to protect our industries; music, movies, television, software, games etc.
Stand aside saying no to everything we suggest or try, but we'll eventually fix widespread copyright infringement, one way or another, and maybe not in a way that suits.

[Murphster]

Originally Posted by GearOnTheGo

The industry is less than half the size it was a decade ago... I too wonder, when is that great turn around happening?

Actually, that is not really true.

Record sales are half of what they were a decade ago, but the industry as a whole is actually exactly the same as it was a decade ago. That is when you take all revenues into consideration including concert receipts and publishing revenue.

But yes, sales are down. On the plus side though sales of video games have risen by twice as much as record sales have fallen.

[GearOnTheGo]

Originally Posted by Murphster

It's not that I am cheering for the record companies losses. But I am not crying for them either. And besides, I am one of those idiots who doesn't actually think piracy is costing them as much as they like to pretend. I think there are far more deep rooted reasons why music sales are down, combined with video games taking a larger share of the customers cash (While music sales have fallen, video games sales have risen to more than replace them).

I am not crying for them because I think they have failed the industry, they have failed the artists and they have failed the customer. The backlash from the artists will happen and now the technology is just about ready, I can see some major acts going independent over the coming years.

Honestly, the music industry is going to be so much better for this.

Video Games have grown with music piracy as the money that would have been spent on music is now displaced to rival goods like console games that are not easily pirated due to reliance on live network connections.

The record industry is half the size it was a decade ago, those are real loses.

The decline started prior to the launch of the iTunes store by four years and the decline did not accelerate once the iTunes store launched, so it's not single song downloads causing the decline either.

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by Mike P

It's amazing to me that people like believe that 15 or 20 years of lost royalties hasn't been a detriment to artists and composers, regardless of their stature or sales.

I hope you realize that some composers and artists, even long after their deals have expired, still earn revenues through publishing and record sales. To cheer for the record companies losses without fully taking into account those of whom have been thoroughly cheated is short-sighted and ill-informed.

Nice post!

Maybe more of this will happen, and we can all get back to making some effing income again.

In my personal opinion, I think the record companies were good for the music industry in general. Never understood the hate for them.

Musicians are musicians, not marketing reps. Musicians were far better off having labels around to move their product among many other things.

Peace,
john

[GearOnTheGo]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Sorry man. Your information is wrong.

Independent Labels are actually much worse than the Majors.

I did a record for a pretty big indie a few years back and it was a 9 point deal. 9 points!!!!!! That's ridiculous.

And I can name a bunch of indie labels that demand publishing as part of the deal. And for numbers like 5k. The Majors don't do that.

It just makes thieves feel better to think that they've done no harm. And what's funny is that they've harmed more middle class people than any of the rich ones. The rich executives saw this coming and started management companies which still bring in big money.

So when you head out to a concert this summer, keep in mind that you're paying those executives again. Unless you're stealing concert tickets too.

Right On!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Murphster

Which is why I am quite happy for the record companies to go to the wall.

Seriously dude.
I know we've shared a couple of PM's and all, but you really have a knack of pi$$ing me off.
We've been over this, even you and I.


1) Record companies are people.
2) Record companies are many and very varied.

Blue Note is 'a record company', 'Warp' is a record company, Rough Trade is a record company. Mushroom is a record company. Mute is a record company. Nonesuch is a record company. Deutsche Gramaphon is a record company.

So you got overcharged at a local Thai restaurant. You don't go around posting that all Thai restaurants should 'go to the wall'.... well not unless you're an incredibly unsympathetic maniac.

[Camera]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Sorry man. Your information is wrong.

Independent Labels are actually much worse than the Majors.

I did a record for a pretty big indie a few years back and it was a 9 point deal. 9 points!!!!!! That's ridiculous.

And I can name a bunch of indie labels that demand publishing as part of the deal. And for numbers like 5k. The Majors don't do that.

It just makes thieves feel better to think that they've done no harm. And what's funny is that they've harmed more middle class people than any of the rich ones. The rich executives saw this coming and started management companies which still bring in big money.

So when you head out to a concert this summer, keep in mind that you're paying those executives again. Unless you're stealing concert tickets too.

You're just proving my point. Labels? 95% of my clients are not signed. And I make a living with a stay at home mom for my 4 year old. Both cars paid for...

I saw this coming back in 95.

Maybe it was the fact that I hated dealing with labels back then, it made no sense to me. I built up a local/regional client base.

The 2 labels I deal with regularly are fantastic to their artists. They wouldn't want me to reveal them either. That's their job.

One of those indies got 2 Grammy noms last year, expecting another this year.

I jumped that ship a long time ago. It's been a new era for at least 10 years. I've seen too many try to hold onto the old way. Good luck to them.

[Murphster]

Originally Posted by chrisso

My point.....
If 'they' as in the 'web experts' don't like SOPA, maybe they can cut to the chase by advising us on ways to preserve our industry and collaborate with us on mutually acceptable methods. Otherwise the content industry has no choice but continue to suggest tools that suit us, and perhaps not you.
Standing on the sideline jumping up and down in indignation, and just saying no to every idea and proposal is not going to look good in the history books.

Chris, seriously you have got this all wrong. When are you gonna learn?

Content creators, tech companies, record labels or even illegal hosting sites don't get to decide anything in this. There always has been, and always will be only one group of people who decide on how a market works...

The consumers!

It is the guys who are buying, streaming and stealing music who will decide the best way forward. This is how capitalism works. Every now again an industry, or a company will delude themselves into thinking they are big enough to be able to control the market, like the record industry tried to do for long enough. But eventually they fail, they always do.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

The rich executives saw this coming and started management companies which still bring in big money.

Yep.
Or if they were savvy went to work for a tech company, or bought shares in Apple, Google, Ebay.

[Murphster]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Seriously dude.
I know we've shared a couple of PM's and all, but you really have a knack of pi$$ing me off.
We've been over this, even you and I.


1) Record companies are people.
2) Record companies are many and very varied.

Blue Note is 'a record company', 'Warp' is a record company, Rough Trade is a record company. Mushroom is a record company. Mute is a record company. Nonesuch is a record company. Deutsche Gramaphon is a record company.

So you got overcharged at a local Thai restaurant. You don't go around posting that all Thai restaurants should 'go to the wall'.... well not unless you're an incredibly unsympathetic maniac.

I'm not talking about the people Chris. Why do you think I am? A company is not a sinking ship taking everyone down with them. I have repeatedly said that the future of the music industry is bright! That includes all the people in it, or at least most of them.

There will be huge changes, but it doesn't mean that people are not going to be making music and making money. In fact I think the creators will be the ones who benefit the most.


** Look, saying record companies is just a label, a name for the the business model which has failed and let down all the artists, in large part due to mis-management.

If you want I will stop saying record companies then. I will just refer to it as the old business model.

I mean no disrespect to all you guys that are part of the record industry.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Murphster

The consumers!

It is the guys who are buying, streaming and stealing music who will decide the best way forward. This is how capitalism works.

So why has Google been scrabbling to acquire patents, and why have they hired teams of lawyers to jealously guard those patents?
Information is free right?
Music copyright is similar to a patent.
The norm is to respect the value of a unique idea. Ideas have value.
In fact Apple, Google and Facebook fully understand that.
And so they fully understand creative people are being ripped off by the public.

That's how capitalism works.

[Camera]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Sorry man. Your information is wrong.

Independent Labels are actually much worse than the Majors.

I did a record for a pretty big indie a few years back and it was a 9 point deal. 9 points!!!!!! That's ridiculous.

And I can name a bunch of indie labels that demand publishing as part of the deal. And for numbers like 5k. The Majors don't do that.

It just makes thieves feel better to think that they've done no harm. And what's funny is that they've harmed more middle class people than any of the rich ones. The rich executives saw this coming and started management companies which still bring in big money.

So when you head out to a concert this summer, keep in mind that you're paying those executives again. Unless you're stealing concert tickets too.

To that I also add...

Originally Posted by chrisso

...The answer is choice and consequences.
Artists have a choice whether or not to sign to a particular label.
....Simple.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Murphster

I'm not talking about the people Chris. Why do you think I am? A company is not a sinking ship taking everyone down with them.

Soooooo (warranted face palm)
If all or most of the 'record companies' go to the wall, no ordinary worker will lose their job, or suffer any ill effects whatsoever.
The fact this has already happened, just beggars belief you would claim that. And this in a time of record unemployment around the western world and a raging financial crisis.
I thought you said you were a businessman.