Can SOPA Save the Music Industry?

[JoRillo]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Let's see, Jo.

1. I worked in the music business at MCA/Universal from 1993 to 1997. I was a part of many large deals, including the re-signing of Glen Ballard before Alanis Morrisette's record went "global". In addition to that, I worked on the ATV catalog and many others.

2. I worked at Famous Music, which was Paramount's music division before it was sold in 2007 to Sony Music. There, I worked on Eminem's first deal (and second), along with Irv Gotti's, Bush, and countless others.

3. Working in the music business for more than a decade in royalties, copyright, business affairs and ultimately, income tracking (for which I was awarded the Viacom Visionary of the Year in 2003) has helped me, as a composer and producer, in my career. Furthermore, I know more about the inner workings of the music business than 99.9999999999999999% of the people that have ever lived on this planet.

Would you like to share notes?

I am honestly *not even being sarcastic right now* very happy to hear that. I am happy to see another person do well in this industry - and I wish you a lifetime of success until the day you die.

But...

Back to the subject. Your credits don't give you ANY kind of say over me in what should or should not be passed as a law in the country we both live in. I am an American citizen just the same as you, just the same as every school teacher, fireman, police officer, etc. etc. Now - the only angle you could possibly play for the rest of this conversation is that I am still young. Yes - I am still young - I still have a lot to learn. Are we over that? Good.

Now that we are over that - Do you believe the government should be allowed to censor us as citizens? I don't. Because I don't - I disagree with this bill. You have a different outlook on the matter - that's great - where would the world be if everyone did and liked the same things? Not everyone can be rocket scientists and not everyone can be Jimmy Hendrix - but ya know what - that's what makes the world *America specifically* so great. Every time we try to limit what our citizens can and can't do/say/see we take away what is so great about our foundation block by block.

I am all for ending piracy - but like I said I want a steak, not a hamburger, let me know when you can find one in the freezer or I'll take my business elsewhere.

And apparently, all of you defending piracy

If you guys are going to try to argue your points - can you at least read what we are writing?

I'm asking for evidence that the internet will be 'destroyed'.

You don't have to agree with it - you probably have seen it before.

http://vimeo.com/31100268

If it is a possibilty - I am against it. It is a possibility - so I am against it.

It's kinda like new medicine commercials "This shit could give you cancer" Me: "Well... Lets see some other options first."

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

And again, I bring up the question of whether that $250k is the actual value of your work in accordance with true market prices or the result of an industry bubble that cause an overvaluation of creative property overall.

This is laughable. You're so freaking full of shit it reeks in every post.

How old are you? How many record and publishing deals have you signed?

Stop talking out of your ill-informed ass.

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

I never talked about "making it".?

Then you shouldn't even be discussing this subject.

Period.

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

Really? You should do your state a favor and help them out because it seems like nobody in charge over there has any clue in that regard.

Off topic. Again.

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

What am I wrong about? The fact that you can be successful without being neurotic about people "stealing" your product when they probably wouldn't have bought it anyway? I disproved you numerous times. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't change. And yes, I have clicked on your website and it really means nothing to me.

Prove it. Soundscan numbers, income, houses, etc.

You haven't proved anything other than the fact that you're another ill-informed, internet minion that just spews what they read without any ACTUAL experience.

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

"What I fought for back in the 90's"? Please tell me what exactly you fought for. For the right to be overvalued in proportion to the actual social value of the work you do? The right to live in "The Hills"?

Yes, exactly. To be among the best songwriters, artists and producers in the world.

I'm sorry that you're happy to settle for less.

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

You haven't talked about a single thing other than money. I might have been inclined to take you a little bit more seriously if you mentioned the much more valid point about the right to control how your creations are used and represented.

And it's "funny" that you haven't. I guess you don't mind stealing IP but I do.

By the way, I just hacked your bank account and stole all your money because it's not important to you.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

No, I don't automatically respect anyone. The people who get my respect are the ones I feel are deserving of it. It could just be a generational thing, but you clearly have different values than me.

Clearly, you don't. And it's also clear that you don't have the drive, integrity or willpower to make something happen on a global scale.

Kudos.

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

You know if you ask for artists, the very least you can do is do a quick Google search (I know.. Google is the evil enemy. ) on them before you respond.

And you've yet to provide NO factual information other than Google.

Google this.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

Now that we are over that - Do you believe the government should be allowed to censor us as citizens? I don't. Because I don't - I disagree with this bill.

The problem is that there is no solution. This bill, IMO, goes too far. Unfortunately, all of us that have earned a living in this business have been hit tenfold with the issue of piracy.

As much as I hate to say it, it may take a bill like this to pass before people realize the true implications of piracy and then maybe, just maybe, it'll swing back the other way.

But the bottom line is that I don't have the solution. I warned presidents of record companies and publishers way back in 1997 that this was coming and coming soon, but no one listened.

But that still doesn't make piracy "right".

[chrisso]

I don't understand the specifics of SOPA, I don't think many in this thread do.
Some people I greatly respect think it's a good proposal. Some people i don't trust (google for one) say it's bad. Well Google have been bad for many creative people, so nothing new there.

Originally Posted by JoRillo

Every time we try to limit what our citizens can and can't do/say/see we take away what is so great about our foundation block by block.

The classic American Dream goes that if you work harder you'll reap more rewards.
America is based on a capitalist ideology that if you work harder and do your job better than someone else, you'll make more money.
With piracy in the equation, if you work harder and make better music than anyone else, you're likely to be pirated more than anyone else.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Mike P

How many record and publishing deals have you signed?

Michael earlier revealed he had no worthy ideas of his own.
So, it's a case of taking rather than sharing, let alone contributing.

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by Mike P

How many of those people worked in the music business?

In the old piracy forum ? probably 3/4

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by tvsky

In the old piracy forum ? probably 3/4

In New Zealand? Or Los Angeles/New York?

I find it extremely hard to believe, if not outright impossible, that 75% of the record label and music publishing workforce was posting on Gearslutz.

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by Mike P

This is laughable. You're so freaking full of shit it reeks in every post.

How old are you? How many record and publishing deals have you signed?

Stop talking out of your ill-informed ass.

calm down mr p

no need for the personal abuse

[Dick_Money]

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

LOL. Are you joking? A 10-gig song is maybe a few hours of downloading. By contrast do you have any idea how much games actually cost to develop? Also with a game, there aren't even royalties. Exposure doesn't give you opportunities to maybe gain a little internet fame and book some more gigs.

Wasn't pointing out that games aren't pirated also. Was pointing out some divisions of entertainment have been hit for a longer time period and are more prone to pirating, i.e. 3 MB file vs 3 gig.

I am all for ownership of property in any form.

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by Mike P

In New Zealand? Or Los Angeles/New York?

I find it extremely hard to believe, if not outright impossible, that 75% of the record label and music publishing workforce was posting on Gearslutz.

no , 3/4 of the active people in the piracy forum worked in the music industry

[Dick_Money]

Originally Posted by tvsky

calm down mr p

no need for the personal abuse

Well to be fair this is a personal subject and close to home to some on this board.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by tvsky

calm down mr p

no need for the personal abuse

You're right. But, he seems to believe that piracy is harmless.

It is not.

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Well Google have been bad for many creative people, so nothing new there.

How so? I've seen the claim a lot of times around here that google somehow benefits through piracy but I don't really get it. I guess because they own youtube? But google.com itself... I don't see the connection.

Not that I like google or anything. It think they're evil for a bunch of other reasons and their political stunt today really turned me off, but I don't really think they benefit from piracy in the conspiratorial way that some people here describe.

[JoRillo]

But that still doesn't make piracy "right".

Ok seriously - it's really starting to get annoying. You don't have to respect me - but for sake of a conversation rather then Big Bad Music Producer vs lil kid on a forum can you at least comprehend the fact that I have never once threw out this entire thread said that I think piracy is good or should continue?

The problem is that there is no solution.

You honestly think that if piracy isn't stopped - that music will seize to exist?

This bill, IMO, goes too far.

As much as I hate to say it, it may take a bill like this to pass before people realize the true implications of piracy and then maybe, just maybe, it'll swing back the other way.

This is my point - Once government steps over the line they don't step back. You don't care about future generations - only about getting your check. That is the problem. You say you care about future generations, but the only way to learn sometimes is to fall on your face. The music industry has fallin on it's face - give it a band aid and let it back outside to play. This bill is not a band aid - it is more like throwing dirt in the womb and then putting a helmet on. Sure the helmet might stop him from hurting himself again - but the infections going to do a lot more hurt for the body then another bump on the head would do it.

I don't understand the specifics of SOPA, I don't think many in this thread do.

So if you don't fully understand it - and Mike doesn't even think it is a full proof plan - why are you two both so against the rest of us who are against it? Obviously we smell the bull shit and aren't trying to be pushed face first into it. Feel free to vote however you want to - but all you want is something to stop piracy - and to me piracy isn't even comparable to government censorship.

Would you be cool with them removing any music that contained the F word and not allowing any form of American internet to access it? I understand you can shoot threw this analogy - the F word isn't copyrighted material - but still... censorship is no good for anyone.

[tvsky]

google links to torrent sites

sopa will crush that!

youtube is the worse thing that could happen to the music industry since the ipod . people don't even both maintaining music collections anymore , pirated or legit

[Dick_Money]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

Now that we are over that - Do you believe the government should be allowed to censor us as citizens? I don't. Because I don't - I disagree with this bill. You have a different outlook on the matter - that's great - where would the world be if everyone did and liked the same things? Not everyone can be rocket scientists and not everyone can be Jimmy Hendrix - but ya know what - that's what makes the world *America specifically* so great. Every time we try to limit what our citizens can and can't do/say/see we take away what is so great about our foundation block by block.

I'm still curious for some hard info on SOPA actually truly censoring anyone. I see more large companies worried they are going to have to police themselves and could face consequences if they don't.

Honestly if there was good reliable info that I saw that this bill would have truly this affect then please point me to a reliable source. As in it says this in the bill and then obviously this will happen.

Most bills are pretty vague, and if say a special interest, cough, cough wanted to spin it, they could. Next thing you know the sky is falling. When all I know is I look around I see people making excuses for what I consider theft and no one caring.

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by tvsky

google links to torrent sites

Yeah, that's not good but they don't profit off of that in any way as far as I can see. If it's just the youtube part people object to I get it. But people usually defend youtube here.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

Ok seriously - it's really starting to get annoying. You don't have to respect me - but for sake of a conversation rather then Big Bad Music Producer vs lil kid on a forum can you at least comprehend the fact that I have never once threw out this entire thread said that I think piracy is good or should continue?



You honestly think that if piracy isn't stopped - that music will seize to exist?





This is my point - Once government steps over the line they don't step back. You don't care about future generations - only about getting your check. That is the problem. You say you care about future generations, but the only way to learn sometimes is to fall on your face. The music industry has fallin on it's face - give it a band aid and let it back outside to play. This bill is not a band aid - it is more like throwing dirt in the womb and then putting a helmet on. Sure the helmet might stop him from hurting himself again - but the infections going to do a lot more hurt for the body then another bump on the head would do it.



So if you don't fully understand it - and Mike doesn't even think it is a full proof plan - why are you two both so against the rest of us who are against it? Obviously we smell the bull shit and aren't trying to be pushed face first into it. Feel free to vote however you want to - but all you want is something to stop piracy - and to me piracy isn't even comparable to government censorship.

Would you be cool with them removing any music that contained the F word and not allowing any form of American internet to access it? I understand you can shoot threw this analogy - the F word isn't copyrighted material - but still... censorship is no good for anyone.

Thanks for missing every point I made.

[Michael Jin]

Originally Posted by Mike P

blah blah blah

Yeah, we get it. You're another butthurt member of the RIAA that's sad because he has one less "zero" on the end of his bank account. Cry me a river.

Originally Posted by Mike P

You're right. But, he seems to believe that piracy is harmless.

It is not.

It is, but nowhere close to the scale you make it out to be. I'd post actual research, but you wouldn't click the links anyway so... yeah..

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

Yeah, that's not good but they don't profit off of that in any way as far as I can see. If it's just the youtube part people object to I get it. But people usually defend youtube here.

Then I guess you don't understand how search engines work.

Google it.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

Yeah, we get it. You're another butthurt member of the RIAA that's sad because he has one less "zero" on the end of his bank account. Cry me a river.

Wow, could you BE more ill informed or is that a genetic trait?

[Michael Jin]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Wow, could you BE more ill informed or is that a genetic trait?

What exactly am I "ill informed" about? The fact that you keep complaining about money or the fact that you are in support of trampling on peoples' freedoms and rights for the purpose of padding your wallet? And yes, this is a rhetorical question and I'm completely trolling you at this point because you're just a joke as far as intelligent conversation is concerned.

[JoRillo]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Thanks for missing every point I made.

Wana fill me in on what I missed?

You:

The problem is that there is no solution. This bill, IMO, goes too far. Unfortunately, all of us that have earned a living in this business have been hit tenfold with the issue of piracy.

As much as I hate to say it, it may take a bill like this to pass before people realize the true implications of piracy and then maybe, just maybe, it'll swing back the other way.

All of which can be summed up in -

Me:

You honestly think that if piracy isn't stopped - that music will seize to exist?

This is my point - Once government steps over the line they don't step back. You don't care about future generations - only about getting your check. That is the problem. You say you care about future generations, but the only way to learn sometimes is to fall on your face. The music industry has fallin on it's face - give it a band aid and let it back outside to play. This bill is not a band aid - it is more like throwing dirt in the womb and then putting a helmet on. Sure the helmet might stop him from hurting himself again - but the infections going to do a lot more hurt for the body then another bump on the head would do it.

Can be summed up with a mix of whats above this and -

You:

But the bottom line is that I don't have the solution. I warned presidents of record companies and publishers way back in 1997 that this was coming and coming soon, but no one listened.

Me:

So if you don't fully understand it - and Mike doesn't even think it is a full proof plan - why are you two both so against the rest of us who are against it? Obviously we smell the bull shit and aren't trying to be pushed face first into it. Feel free to vote however you want to - but all you want is something to stop piracy - and to me piracy isn't even comparable to government censorship.

Can be summed up in -

You:

But that still doesn't make piracy "right".

Me:

I have never once threw out this entire thread said that I think piracy is good or should continue?

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Then I guess you don't understand how search engines work.

Google it.

Google doesn't make money from their search engine, they make money from ads.

[Michael Jin]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Then I guess you don't understand how search engines work.

Google it.

Considering your comment about Skrillex and rap, neither do you.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

What exactly am I "ill informed" about? The fact that you keep complaining about money or the fact that you are in support of trampling on peoples' freedoms and rights for the purpose of padding your wallet? And yes, this is a rhetorical question and I'm completely trolling you at this point because you're just a joke as far as intelligent conversation is concerned.

Please list the names and number of people's freedoms I've personally stolen or those from whom i've stolen money.



To the contrary, I've recovered more lost money for composers and artists than you can possibly imagine.

Your childish and boorish behavior is not only boring but unworthy of my time. Good luck with your career. You're gonna need it.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by tvsky

no , 3/4 of the active people in the piracy forum worked in the music industry

Three quarters... or 3 to 4?
I say the latter.
Less than half a dozen posting are working fulltime in some industry role.

[Dick_Money]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

If you guys are going to try to argue your points - can you at least read what we are writing?



You don't have to agree with it - you probably have seen it before.

PROTECT IP / SOPA Breaks The Internet on Vimeo

If it is a possibilty - I am against it. It is a possibility - so I am against it.

It's kinda like new medicine commercials "This shit could give you cancer" Me: "Well... Lets see some other options first."

Just downloaded the resume of the maker of that video. Wouldn't be my first choice of reliable news but each their own. Also not a lot of "facts" in that video that I could see.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Michael Jin

Considering your comment about Skrillex and rap, neither do you.

I'm surprised you're able to feed yourself. Seriously.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

Google doesn't make money from their search engine, they make money from ads.

So, you're claiming that torrent sites DON'T pay for Google Ad Words?

Seriously?