Developing young teen singer - contracts, making sure I get compensated farely, etc,

[RockTheRoll]

I came across a young girl with a great voice and shining personality through a piano teacher that was teaching at my studio.

I'm considering the possibility of pitching an offer to her and her parents to help develop her singing and writing ability (she writes as well) and I can definitely see the potential of developing some really great songs and releasing an EP when she's a little older (or maybe soon) 16-18 - I believe she's 14 year's of age at the moment.

What is a good financial and contractual proposition in these situations? From my own experience - regardless of age - artist development can be a huge time investment and never guarantees a big return.

Should I be charging a comfortable flat rate per month/year with a guaranteed minimum amount of time each month in the studio?

Obviously I own any material I write and make royalties, as well as a few points for production. But what about bonus's if she gets signed to Disney or an agency, etc, etc. Maybe the songs don't do extremely well, but; they develop some fan base and exposure, the time put into development gives her new professional abilities, promotion, and training (all of which would out weigh whatever flat rate I (and if I) charge.) still result in her jump-starting a prosperous career, via, like I said, getting signed - should I benefit from that.

Here's what I'm considering to protect myself in terms of making sure I get compensated.

Base:
1.) Songs I solely write, I solely own.
2.) Songs I help her write/Songs we co-write, 50/50 split (even if I end up doing the majority of the work/writing)
3.) $500/month for recording/production/writing time - Guarantees minimum 24 hrs of time each month. Some of this will also be used for paying a vocal coach I have a partnership with.
4.) 3 production points on all commercial recordings we release.

Additional (tell me good or bad):
5.) I have sole writing/co-writing and production on her first commercial single unless I permit other (no reason I wouldn't collaborate with a renowned producer/writer.)
6.) I have sole writing/co-writing and production on her first EP/Album for at least 2 out of every 3 songs.
7|a) If signed to record label/agency, 70% reimbursement will be given to me for recording/engineering time spent above the $500/month flat rate. Example:

If I spend 100 hours once month working on a song that's $2000 worth of work minus the $500 (24 hours) = $1500. If she get's a $50,000 contract, 70% of $1500 comes out of it to me. I will cap it at $10,000/year for major label, $5000/year for indie.

OR

7|b) I get %10 of any contract cash advancement she gets from a record label within 5 years of first commercial release.

8.) If she gets a recording contract, I am given exclusivity (unless I choose other wise) on producing and writing her first post-record-label-contract-signing single as well as 1 out of every 3 songs on the first album.



Good, bad, slimy, safe, well thought out? suggestions? Thank you.

[RockTheRoll]

hmm, 120 views, 0 replies. Not many experienced in this sort of scenario or did I word/format my thread poorly? In the case of not experienced, does anyone have any references hey can point to?

[unitymusic]

Unless she has rich parents and you have an impressive list of credits I'm not sure why they would want to go for this? Maybe just offer to record a demo for her and see how that turns out?

[RockTheRoll]

Originally Posted by unitymusic

Unless she has rich parents and you have an impressive list of credits I'm not sure why they would want to go for this? Maybe just offer to record a demo for her and see how that turns out?

The reason being for this is that she doesn't have rich parents. Singing lessons are $50/day x 1x/week x 4 weeks is $200/month, I suppose I could charge more around $300/month. We'd definitely do some demos and test the waters first. But, the reason they would do this, is I would do a mockup quote if I were to charge them hourly for recording as well as some cash advancement for production and all the time spent writing which I know they won't be able to afford which is fine, but If I'm going to be developing this girl over 3 years at very very reduced rates and she makes it big because of it... should I not have some contractual agreements to make sure I see some benefits?

Surely Scooter Braun had a contract with justin beiber before justin made it big?

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

when she's a little older (or maybe soon) 16-18 - I believe she's 14 year's of age at the moment.

Leaves a bit of a moral bad taste in MY mouth. Too young for me - she should be focussing on school. But then again - if you don't , maybe someone else will.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Should I be charging a comfortable flat rate per month/year with a guaranteed minimum amount of time each month in the studio?

Why not just charge by each day you're in?

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Obviously I own any material I write and make royalties, as well as a few points for production. But what about bonus's if she gets signed to Disney or an agency, etc, etc. Maybe the songs don't do extremely well, but; they develop some fan base and exposure, the time put into development gives her new professional abilities, promotion, and training (all of which would out weigh whatever flat rate I (and if I) charge.) still result in her jump-starting a prosperous career, via, like I said, getting signed - should I benefit from that.

Do a management /production deal. But if you want that then really you shouldn't be asking for money up front.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Here's what I'm considering to protect myself in terms of making sure I get compensated.

Base:
1.) Songs I solely write, I solely own.

Okay

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

2.) Songs I help her write/Songs we co-write, 50/50 split (even if I end up doing the majority of the work/writing)

Sure.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

3.) $500/month for recording/production/writing time - Guarantees minimum 24 hrs of time each month. Some of this will also be used for paying a vocal coach I have a partnership with.

This is problematic.
1. Why not just pay for each day used
2. If they are paying for your time in advance then why should you be holding onto any other rights. Where is the risk from you? Your investment?

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

4.) 3 production points on all commercial recordings we release.

Sure - but it'd have to be an agreement with the artist. A label does not have to honour this front their side up front.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Additional (tell me good or bad):
5.) I have sole writing/co-writing and production on her first commercial single unless I permit other (no reason I wouldn't collaborate with a renowned producer/writer.)

There is no way to enforce this. You'd be stopping her signing a deal that accepted this - it would not be legal EVEN if she signed it.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

6.) I have sole writing/co-writing and production on her first EP/Album for at least 2 out of every 3 songs.

See above

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

7|a) If signed to record label/agency, 70% reimbursement will be given to me for recording/engineering time spent above the $500/month flat rate. Example:

If I spend 100 hours once month working on a song that's $2000 worth of work minus the $500 (24 hours) = $1500. If she get's a $50,000 contract, 70% of $1500 comes out of it to me. I will cap it at $10,000/year for major label, $5000/year for indie.

Shouldn't the person paying you also get their monies back too?

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

OR

7|b) I get %10 of any contract cash advancement she gets from a record label within 5 years of first commercial release.

No legally enforceable unless you have a management arrangement.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

8.) If she gets a recording contract, I am given exclusivity (unless I choose other wise) on producing and writing her first post-record-label-contract-signing single as well as 1 out of every 3 songs on the first album.

Not enforceable or attractive for a label.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Good, bad, slimy, safe, well thought out? suggestions? Thank you.

Some good and some just not legally doable.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

The reason being for this is that she doesn't have rich parents. Singing lessons are $50/day x 1x/week x 4 weeks is $200/month, I suppose I could charge more around $300/month. We'd definitely do some demos and test the waters first. But, the reason they would do this, is I would do a mockup quote if I were to charge them hourly for recording as well as some cash advancement for production and all the time spent writing which I know they won't be able to afford which is fine, but If I'm going to be developing this girl over 3 years at very very reduced rates and she makes it big because of it... should I not have some contractual agreements to make sure I see some benefits?

Surely Scooter Braun had a contract with justin beiber before justin made it big?

Do a management deal. You can't tie her to working with you artistically at all - but you can tie into a business dev relationship. Back to being 14 - she can't sign such a deal with you without her parents consent.... and guess what. She'd be OUT of it as soon she's 18.

[unitymusic]

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

The reason being for this is that she doesn't have rich parents. Singing lessons are $50/day x 1x/week x 4 weeks is $200/month, I suppose I could charge more around $300/month. We'd definitely do some demos and test the waters first. But, the reason they would do this, is I would do a mockup quote if I were to charge them hourly for recording as well as some cash advancement for production and all the time spent writing which I know they won't be able to afford which is fine, but If I'm going to be developing this girl over 3 years at very very reduced rates and she makes it big because of it... should I not have some contractual agreements to make sure I see some benefits?

Surely Scooter Braun had a contract with justin beiber before justin made it big?

Personally, if I had a 14 year old daughter and someone who was pretty much a stranger came to me/us with that agreement not only would it never happen, but the option of even doing recording time would be off the table. If you said something like I see potential in your daughter, for $500 she could record a song or two and get some studio experience (or whatever your rates work out to be), I'd consider it.

That's just my opinion; narcoman is far more knowledgeable than I and gave you better specifics than I could.

[RockTheRoll]

Sweet, just putting out all different ideas off all types even those that I felt morally off a bit and your replies agree with my natural internal feeling so thank you.

I'm not a stranger,
Her piano teacher is an affiliate and I've already recorded her and many of her friends as a group they had put together and met all their parents, but she's the one that stood out as naturally talented and interested in the process.

What's wrong with 14? I would have been stoked if I could have been involved with a writer and studio at that age, school wasn't for me, music was and I could have got a major head start... she's already writing on her own, why not facilitate and encourage that?

[unitymusic]

There's nothing wrong with getting her involved in the process I don't think, as long as you don't come off as greedy/scheming, and as long as she's not pushed too hard. At that age you should want to help her, not yourself. Also I apologize if I came off as judgemental, if you're not a stranger it's a little different; I don't know your situation/background, but I still think the answers you got are valid.

I'd start off slow, charge for the time she uses, and maybe cut her some breaks if she uses a lot. As she gets more comforatble in the studio then bring up the possibility of a production/co-writing agreement. Best of luck.

-Danny

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Sweet, just putting out all different ideas off all types even those that I felt morally off a bit and your replies agree with my natural internal feeling so thank you.

I'm not a stranger,
Her piano teacher is an affiliate and I've already recorded her and many of her friends as a group they had put together and met all their parents, but she's the one that stood out as naturally talented and interested in the process.

What's wrong with 14? I would have been stoked if I could have been involved with a writer and studio at that age, school wasn't for me, music was and I could have got a major head start... she's already writing on her own, why not facilitate and encourage that?

cus she's 14. She doesn't know anything; she's a kid. Finish school THEN decide. No matter how good she is the most likely outcome is complete and utter failure - this is a luck based business. For every Beiber (sp?) there are 100,000 crying teens who've seriously ****ed up their education chances.... remember, kids get carried away by this stuff.

Second. duh.... she's 14. There is a very strong chance she'll change her focus by the time she grows up. So hold back even for your own sake.

School is for EVERYONE. But get her involved in a hobbyist way.

I can't see how you can charge AND have a stake in equity, by the way.

[RockTheRoll]

Originally Posted by narcoman

cus she's 14. She doesn't know anything; she's a kid. Finish school THEN decide. No matter how good she is the most likely outcome is complete and utter failure - this is a luck based business. For every Beiber (sp?) there are 100,000 crying teens who've seriously ****ed up their education chances.... remember, kids get carried away by this stuff.

Second. duh.... she's 14. There is a very strong chance she'll change her focus by the time she grows up. So hold back even for your own sake.

School is for EVERYONE. But get her involved in a hobbyist way.

I can't see how you can charge AND have a stake in equity, by the way.

Sorry I disagree, she could have a troubled family life and getting her involved in something like this could save her from drugs, abusive relationships, etc, etc... I knew girls in highschool that went through all the above by the time they were 13 including one that was dating a 10 year older drug dealer when she was 16. Sorry but I feel you are pretty wrong on your last statement (in my opinion) but I do agree with you on your replies to my initial post.

School is not for everyone, especially with todays outdated dinosaur education system. I became very lost in highschool - socially, mentally, and emotionally and by grade 10 I had started snorting blow at parties and dropping E at highschool dances. I did have some music teachers encourage my writing but nothing to the extent of getting into a real studio with real producers/writers because if I did, I probably would have skipped that whole drug phase which lead to some pretty low points in my youth. Regardless by about half-way through grade 11 I started putting the drugs aside and focusing full-on on my music and by then end of grade 12, couldn't care any less about drugs and had accumulated a few hundred songs, I was obsessed with music. But I could imagine if I didn't have a good family, where I would have ended up.

You wouldn't believe some of the shit going on these days, when I was in highschool, there was another school having a dance and the grade 12 girls were convincing grade 8 girls to take off their panties in the washroom and going back into the dance floor to dance pantyless with of coarse, short short skirts... this being some sort of joke/initiation. If I had a daughter, I'd much rather her be doing something she really likes and could potentially become very passionate and good at, I mean 14 year old girls play soccer, hockey, model, draw, etc, etc... Why can't they record and write songs?

Got to get to her before school kills her creativity man!

Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity | Video on TED.com

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Sorry I disagree, she could have a troubled family life and getting her involved in something like this could save her from drugs, abusive relationships, etc, etc...

One cannot appoint oneself as a child psychologist on a whim. Your duty as a citizen in such circumstances is to refer to the authorities. Be cautious about getting involved with kids; the decision and legal guardian status lies with their parents until otherwise directed and any interference otherwise may have very damning legal implications ranging from civil suit cases to social welfare criminal prosecution. I am not implying this is your predicament but be aware of the potential ramifications.... it's why social care exists - to deal with such situations.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

I knew girls in highschool that went through all the above by the time they were 13 including one that was dating a 10 year older drug dealer when she was 16. Sorry but I feel you are pretty wrong on your last statement (in my opinion) but I do agree with you on your replies to my initial post.

Again - your moral judgement may be right but you are in dangerous legal ground to interfere on such a basis. Right - that part is done. We've discussed that and I take it it has no real bearing on this discussion?

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

School is not for everyone, especially with todays outdated dinosaur education system......

I understand. However, unless you are a qualified social worker then this is still not your place to make decisions on a juveniles life. You can have an opinion on it, you can even suggest getting involved in music - but you have no mandate to act as a social work if unqualified. If qualified then it must be through the proper channels. I have, just this week, seen a "charitable case" from a good friend backfire on him in court. If you REALLY want to do this sort of thing - do it through welfare channels.

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

If I had a daughter, I'd much rather her be doing something she really likes and could potentially become very passionate and good at, I mean 14 year old girls play soccer, hockey, model, draw, etc, etc... Why can't they record and write songs?

Got to get to her before school kills her creativity man!

That is entirely distinct from approaching her with a 500 buck deal. The last post and your initial one are in different moral and business directions and on the face of it, at odds with each other..

I've given you my opinion on a business deal for such a thing. Now you are proposing something else; charity work for a 14 yr old girl that you think needs social support. I strongly advise against this course of action without proper welfare approval. Be careful about the social implications, the legal ones and the starry eyed promises of the music industry. Consider your motives carefully (is it a biz development, personal earning project or social work?) and act responsibly to yourself AND the prospective client.

[RockTheRoll]

Authorities!? **** man, you really know how to mess up a kid lol.

Sorry I'm losing you man, I never said I would be interfering with anything other than her songwriting and musical ability which I would hardly consider interfering. The most I would do, is ask her parents to show her school the work we've done and see if the school would consider to allow her drop a class and do writing/recording/production as an elective.

Most social workers aren't social workers, just over educated under experienced minions of again, a dinosaur education system, which is pushed by the government... math and science or your on the street kind of deal for kids. The job of social workers is to get children that fell off the government-specification train tracks and get them back on it which usually results in them becoming much worse.

No one said anything about charity dude, my OP was about protecting me from larger production companies who might swoop in and take over without compensating me for the time I put in while also making a bit of money on the side while we work... Not sure if you've done a lot of solo artist development, but it takes a lot of time and it's not practical to charge for time - If I see potential in her, then there needs to be a big time investment from me, but I still need some money and will work out a deal with parents and see what they can afford.

Sorry but again, I don't see how my OP and my later post detract from one another. Kids pay for music lessons... Contact welfare??? I'm not sure on where you are getting your guidance/knowledge on how to deal with kids.

Your friend probably made stupid mistakes or tried contacting the authorities.

The most important part of that video is 15min... in case you missed it.

*edit*

Don't put words in my mouth, I never used the word charity - you are overextending your stay with your opinions on my "morals". Just wanted to make that clear before you post something else.

[narcoman]

you brought up "troubled child" as some kind of reasoning. You're sending very mixed messages. Either you want a strategic business relationship or you're doing somer crusade to "give a kid a chance". I've tried to help you along either path with experienced advice; up to you whether you take advice. It's there to ignore as you please.

If you're looking to get money from the parents then I cannot see how you'd maintain any equity.
If you're looking to help the child directly without contacting the parents then you are on shakey legal ground.
This is not paying for "music lessons". This is paying for career development and there is a distinction between the "I have found a talented person I want to work with" and "have you never heard of socially deprived kids" sort of thing.

I haven't mentioned your morals I've just told you the issues you will face. Coldly and flatly. No judgement, just be careful when it comes to kids.....

But up to you......

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Your friend probably made stupid mistakes or tried contacting the authorities.
.

he is an extremely well known idiot.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Not sure if you've done a lot of solo artist development, but it takes a lot of time and it's not practical to charge for time

Oh yes. Done plenty of that. . Never charged for time though - that was the corporate investment into the project.

[dimag333]

sounds shady and like you are taking advantage of parents that don't know the business

[RockTheRoll]

Originally Posted by narcoman

oh dear.....

you brought up "troubled child" etc etc. You're sending very mixed messages. either you want a strategic business relationship or you're doing somer crusade to "give a kid a chance". I've tried to help you along either path with experienced advice; up to you whether you take advice. It's there to ignore if you please.

If you're looking to get money from the parents then I cannot see how you'd maintain any equity.
If you're looking to help the child directly without contacting the parents then you are on shakey legal ground.

I haven't mentioned your morals I've just told you the issues you will face. Coldly and flatly. No judgement, just be careful when it comes to kids...

But up to you. You know best......

Like wise,

Again I don't think I said she was a troubled child nor did I say I would intervene if she was, other than of coarse her being in the studio rather than on the street.

Obviously the parents would be contacted, I never stated I would be avoiding the parents or doing this without their consent...

I'm considering the possibility of pitching an offer to her and her parents to help develop her singing and writing ability

I'm not a stranger,
Her piano teacher is an affiliate and I've already recorded her and many of her friends as a group they had put together and met all their parents, but she's the one that stood out as naturally talented and interested in the process.

Sorry I disagree, she could have a troubled family life

We seem to have a very different approach and perspective to kids and you seem to have the sort of typical idealistic approach of school is for everyone, go to the authority, etc, etc. It works for some kids, but the type of kids we are talking about - it's not realistic, and your approach when you think about it, is much more active than it is passive, and interferes much more and your lack of inexperience in the subject shows from saying things like:

She doesn't know anything; she's a kid.

In fact, most of my responses (of what you saw as charity declaration) were in response to the above few words... some kids know a lot, good or bad, I listed the bad. You have to give kids more credit - they are smart, witty, hyper-creative, and have sooooo much potential that our education system writes off as unimportant.

It is your active approach which is risky, so maybe I don't see the risk that you do because my approach doesn't involve that. Unless you live in North Korea, kids are going to do what they want, they have their own minds, feelings, and develop opinions. It's much better take a passive approach and let them make their mistakes and only offer them to explore their interest, and create an environment of positivity, creativity, etc, etc. Kids want to explore. While it's important to have some formality to get things done, it's not hard to have a working mix of both in a passive atmosphere.

I had chums who had straight A's in highschool, went to college/uni, took coarses, and still can't figure out their life, what makes them happy, what they want as a career, etc, etc.

Your business input was appreciated and gave some good insight and was what I sort of expected, but maybe now you are getting insight and learning something from me.

[RockTheRoll]

Originally Posted by narcoman

Oh yes. Done plenty of that. . Never charged for time though - that was the corporate investment into the project.

Right, so my questions are within the context of there being no corporate investment but a lot of talent.

[RockTheRoll]

Originally Posted by dimag333

sounds shady and like you are taking advantage of parents that don't know the business

I'm the one trying to avoid becoming the victim! It's a shady business and in the world momagers wanting their kids to make millions, I wouldn't put it past anyone to go to Disney behind my back after I've already done all the work and not give me any credit... it happens a lot, or so I hear.

I'm pretty sure I self admitted to some of the terms I put in my OP as being slightly slimy, but I had no idea what would be necessary to protect me from the high-up shady business. So I posted a range of options from standard and acceptable, to extreme.

[The Byre]

Thje answer is dead simple - and I've been in this situation many times - girls who look like a million dollars and can sing and REALLY want a career in the music business and have the talent to back that desire up are as rare as hen's teeth.

People like you and me are ten-a-penny.

Answer - indulge her and give her support. Maybe she might just remember you down the line, if she ever makes it.

P.S. They never do!

[initialsBB]

haha. make it, or remember you?

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

haha. make it, or remember you?

Those that make it, forget those that helped them on their way up completely.

Those that don't make it, keep coming back - until they make it of course!

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Thje answer is dead simple - and I've been in this situation many times - girls who look like a million dollars and can sing and REALLY want a career in the music business and have the talent to back that desire up are as rare as hen's teeth.

People like you and me are ten-a-penny.

Answer - indulge her and give her support. Maybe she might just remember you down the line, if she ever makes it.

P.S. They never do!

.

tru freekking dat...

.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Those that make it, forget those that helped them on their way up completely.

Those that don't make it, keep coming back - until they make it of course!

.

Another reality check gem.

.

[narcoman]

I haven't said "go to the authorities". I've said:

1. If you are setting yourself up as a teacher with no parental involvement WITHOUT authority approval you could find yourself on the back end of young people and their pernickety states. You need CRBs etc...

2. If you are seeking parental involvement then it's just the first post.

It is not legal for someone merely to set up an organisation that deals with kids in ANY way without their parents support. That is all..... you are not legally allowed to set up, for example, a musical talent agency for minors without parental involvement. To DO so you would need to be in touch with various social services.

[RockTheRoll]

Originally Posted by narcoman

refer to the authorities.

Either way, I was asking business practices on protecting myself... Not how to handle a teenager, whether I'm qualified to do so, or if I'm somehow going to be a threat to her well being... sorry if I came off as defensive.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by RockTheRoll

Either way, I was asking business practices on protecting myself... Not how to handle a teenager, whether I'm qualified to do so, or if I'm somehow going to be a threat to her well being... sorry if I came off as defensive.

Sure - but the advice was just as much to protect yourself. That's all.....