The days of selling music are over.

[narcoman]

indeed.!!

[gizeh12]

Put your shit up for free download, and even than the download counts multiplied by the royalty rate wouldnt create enough reveneu to cover the costs.

It's hard to stay motivated these days.

[gizeh12]

Originally Posted by Muser

actually Murph, the businessmen, the entrepreneur marketers already know that people today think they are more savvy than businessmen, entrepreneurs.

in fact their model now leverages those assumptions. they now take into account that what you have to do is simply and silently offer the resources to let them savvy folk think they are savvy.. because that way, they do all the leg work and organization themselves.

for businessmen, the entrepreneur marketers, they then have an endless supply of savvy people doing all the grunt work. That allows them to increase the frequency of Artist turnover so they can more quickly change brand marketing clients. it resonates with the Internet as a medium and amplifies the publics ability to satisfy their desire to participate in the formation and brand associate value. That means the fans operate as more vociferous advocates. The Artist typically lasts much less in time terms, but that's of no real consequence. The Client to the advertisers are satisfied.

it's great.. works like a charm. and no ones any the wiser.

Interesting point:
Reminds me of "the business model generation" and microcredit. It sort of gives the masses the illusion they are in control, start their own businesses, and built their empires while the cold statistics show its a zero sum game, where only a small minority can succeed.

[skyy38]

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman
Now if we can just get rid of the 99% crap the home users are putting out......

Yha but . . . I mean it's not like that stuff gets anywhere. It's only on soundcloud and youtube. I dont see the big problem with it. A lot of kids just want to make tunes and share them with friends . . . and plus you gotta start somewhere.

Just out of curiosity, narcoman, what kind of crap are YOU putting out?

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by skyy38

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman
Now if we can just get rid of the 99% crap the home users are putting out......

Yha but . . . I mean it's not like that stuff gets anywhere. It's only on soundcloud and youtube. I dont see the big problem with it. A lot of kids just want to make tunes and share them with friends . . . and plus you gotta start somewhere.

Just out of curiosity, narcoman, what kind of crap are YOU putting out?

It creates a sea of mediocrity that the public at large gets bored of. You have to wade through more shit than ever to hear anything good. The home studio revolution has been a very good thing for the minority of people with talent, and a very bad thing for the huge deluge of junk that's out there.

The crap I work on, for better or for worse, sells. Mind you, I'm not daft enough to write the darn stuff..... one of the lovely things about being "support staff" (mixer or producer)... you get the kudos when it works but the artists takes the shit when it's hated!!

[Liquid360]

Originally Posted by sventvkg

I have plenty of experience on tours as well and I agree with you. Where the oldsters and some of Lessor oldsters disagree is the mechanism that caused it. I say the labels greed and their failure to innovate and even remotely respect the customer, is a big part of what put us here. Piracy is a direct result of their actions and inactions as well as representation of the level of disrespect for their customers.

I'll give you that one. Remember buying a CD for $14 only to discover it only had one good song on it?

But when it comes to all these "distribution" debates, you simply can't compete with "free". It destroys the whole house of cards.

[ionian]

[deleted!]

[gizeh12]

Market Saturation!

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by Murphster

My point is quite simply, that this industry was always going to be in trouble with or without piracy. That the music industry has fallen behind and lost market share to other forms of entertainment and new methods of receiving it. Piracy is an easy excuse and if there is one thing I have learned in my life it is that people, especially those with something to lose, always love an easy excuse.

The answer is not stopping piracy, the answer is making your product something worth paying for again. This should be the focus of everyone in the music industry, from the top down. I believe that the ones who are addressing this are the ones who will be thriving in the new world.

absolutely not true...

I have a product the consumer wants.

It has charted at #31 in the billboard top 200.

It is ALSO a product the consumer wants to steal.

I have issued 6,000 DMCA takedown notices for it specifically.

The Pirate Bay does not recognize US law or the DMCA.

How would you remedy illegal distribution by The Pirate Bay?

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by rack gear

The Pirate Bay does not recognize US law or the DMCA.

One doesn't get to choose which laws you recognise unless you are a nation state! Pirate Bay can decry any law they like - doesn't mean to say they are not still bound by them!! The cheekey tikes...

[razorboy]

Originally Posted by narcoman

One doesn't get to choose which laws you recognise unless you are a nation state! Pirate Bay can decry any law they like - doesn't mean to say they are not still bound by them!! The cheekey tikes...

Pirate Bay was sold for $7.8 million. Rip off other people's stuff and sell it, or give the stuff it away and sell the company that gave it away. Now THAT'S a "business model."

[optofonik]

If a musician wants to make a living, earning money through their music, they will have to...

wait for it...

[optofonik]

... learn to perform. Musical performances will never go away and those who know how to perform live will continue to do so and will be paid by appreciative audiences. This means that the only people who will suffer are non-musicians who don't know how to perform live on their chosen instrument. It has always been so; the "recording industry" is nothing more than a small blip on the radar of music history. I know this will be a very unpopular opinion but facts are facts. In the early 80's when 1/4" 8-track and 1/2" 16-track open reel recorders were introduced I was a big fan and benefactor of the democratization of the means of production but that democratization has evolved into something unforeseen within the context of musicianship and art as a whole.

PressPausePlay

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by optofonik

... This means that the only people who will suffer are non-musicians who don't know how to perform live on their chosen instrument.

Or.... people who can't tour for health reasons.
And individual songwriters who can't afford a backing band.
And very small, niche bands who have to compete for tickets sales with hugely popular bands.
And artists who's music involves large ensembles (like orchestral instruments) that are too expensive to tour.
And the families of musicians (including children) who will have to spend months without a parent as that parent will be touring more often and for longer to compensate for lost revenue.

[optofonik]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Or.... people who can't tour for health reasons.
And individual songwriters who can't afford a backing band.
And very small, niche bands who have to compete for tickets sales with hugely popular bands.
And artists who's music involves large ensembles (like orchestral instruments) that are too expensive to tour.
And the families of musicians (including children) who will have to spend months without a parent as that parent will be touring more often and for longer to compensate for lost revenue.

None of those things are new to musicians or a result of the decline of recorded music. Those are all things that are part of being not only a musician but an entertainer. My grandparents were touring vaudevillians, my grandfather a singer, before the modern recording industry existed and they had to deal with challenges similar to the above. My father's crib for the first couple of years of his life was a traveling wardrobe drawer on the train during the season. It was not an easy life but it was, by all accounts, rewarding. If entertainment were an easy business there would be no one to work at Walmart. As things change, things remain the same.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by optofonik

None of those things are new to musicians or a result of the decline of recorded music.

Of course they are different....
I was in bands that toured 3 months in the year. Income was supplemented by record sales. No income from record sales and you have to tour many more months.
Income from record sales also supported grandiose projects like the Buena Vista Social Club, very old and frail guys who couldn't undertake lengthy tours, plus niche jazz and classical works involving large ensembles that are uneconomic to tour, other than a handful of headline dates.

[optofonik]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Of course they are different....
I was in bands that toured 3 months in the year. Income was supplemented by record sales. No income from record sales and you have to tour many more months.
Income from record sales also supported grandiose projects like the Buena Vista Social Club, very old and frail guys who couldn't undertake lengthy tours, plus niche jazz and classical works involving large ensembles that are uneconomic to tour, other than a handful of headline dates.

Respect due. I guess what I was getting at is that I don't think the days of selling music are over, just the days of selling recorded music as a means of appreciable income. It's ironic to me that the democratization of the means of production has brought an end to the era of recorded music as a commodity and is returning music to it's pre-twentieth century roots as a performance medium.

[chrisso]

Well my personal opinion is that recordings are an artistic evolution.
To put it more simply, it would be like walking away from film and going back to theatre as the main medium for actors.
For me, both, as distinct and valued disciplines is by far the best scenario.

[Bob Olhsson]

I think the daze of selling '80s overdub party music are over and thus far nobody has stepped up with anything fresh enough to ignite most people's interest beyond hip background music.

Music has always been primarily a performance medium. When I was doing electronic space music only artists who had actually performed it extensively live had any significant sales. This wasn't a matter of their live performances promoting sales but rather it seems that audience feedback is how musical communication skills get perfected.

[fritzschreiner]

Are any trends pointing to where this is heading starting to show up yet?

Seems like a bit of a "no man's land" between how things used to work, and how they will, but don't yet work.

There are still lots of people able to make the old ways work well enough to do ok, and there seem to be lots of people finding some new ways of carving out an existence for themselves, but there also seems to be a growing number trying to straddle two worlds and the snapping sounds are their hamstrings under stress.

It's probably a good time to get creative.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by fritzschreiner

Are any trends pointing to where this is heading starting to show up yet? ...

It's probably a good time to get creative.

I don't think most people realize the degree to which artists such as Enrico Caruso, Ella Fitzgerald, Elvis Presley and the Beatles literally came from out of nowhere and changed absolutely everything about the music industry.

It won't be a trend. That whole way of thinking isn't applicable.

[ncoak]

bottom line is if people want to sell their music for money, they must provide something of value. mp3s are disposable, intangible, and worth as much to most people as a song they hear on the radio - no surprise they're mostly willing to pay about the same price for it.

[fritzschreiner]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I don't think most people realize the degree to which artists such as Enrico Caruso, Ella Fitzgerald, Elvis Presley and the Beatles literally came from out of nowhere and changed absolutely everything about the music industry.

It won't be a trend. That whole way of thinking isn't applicable.

What way of thinking IS applicable then, and what about this CAN we predict with reasonable hopes of success?

I'd be surprised to learn that any of those artists planned on having the effect they had, or knew in advance that it was even remotely possible.

But I've heard of lots TRYING to duplicate their feats and fail at it.

Most businesses have some expectation of being able to predict or they might as well just go to work in the casino each morning, or buying lottery tickets.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by fritzschreiner

What way of thinking IS applicable then, and what about this CAN we predict with reasonable hopes of success?.

Begin at the beginning in front of a room full of real, live, breathing people. At first this means entertaining a very small room!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ncoak

bottom line is if people want to sell their music for money, they must provide something of value. mp3s are disposable, intangible, and worth as much to most people as a song they hear on the radio - no surprise they're mostly willing to pay about the same price for it.

Artists don't want to produce mp3's though. They are satisfying a public demand for mp3's.

[fritzschreiner]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Begin at the beginning in front of a room full of real, live, breathing people. At first this means entertaining a very small room!

I've been doing that since 73. Not too sure they were all always breathing, but that went with the bar band territory. I still love it though, especially since smoking indoors in public places is no longer allowed where I am.

In the 70's, you were a smoker whether you were one or not.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by ncoak

bottom line is if people want to sell their music for money, they must provide something of value. mp3s are disposable, intangible, and worth as much to most people as a song they hear on the radio - no surprise they're mostly willing to pay about the same price for it.

the music is the product and the value... you are confusing the product with the container.

...this may come as a surprise, but no one needs to make music to sell t-shirts, mugs, key chains, etc... and it's a lot more profitable to sell t-shirts, mugs, key chains without the cost of investing in musical recordings...

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by razorboy

Pirate Bay was sold for $7.8 million. Rip off other people's stuff and sell it, or give the stuff it away and sell the company that gave it away. Now THAT'S a "business model."

Googles business model too eh? Heh

[Papanate]

Originally Posted by sventvkg
I have plenty of experience on tours as well and I agree with you. Where the oldsters and some of Lessor oldsters disagree is the mechanism that caused it. I say the labels greed and their failure to innovate and even remotely respect the customer, is a big part of what put us here. Piracy is a direct result of their actions and inactions as well as representation of the level of disrespect for their customers.

Originally Posted by Liquid360

I'll give you that one. Remember buying a CD for $14 only to discover it only had one good song on it?

But when it comes to all these "distribution" debates, you simply can't compete with "free". It destroys the whole house of cards.

Free...no cost....that's exactly why pirates thrive. It's not limited to music, it's not limited to whether the original is good or not (although the good stuff is pirated more frequently) it's related to people not wanting to pay for things.
A CD could be $5 and people would still pirate them. Usenet is full of pirated Waves, Cubase, Logic...Office, Windows, Movies etc.....it doesn't matter if the publishers, musicians, record companies or whomever 'listened' and innovated according to the consumers wants or needs. iTunes didn't 'save' the music industry - it provided a easy access method that people who pay for things liked. Apple sold the 'singles' concept to get people who didn't think about it much to think about it...again....the singles concept predates albums.

But pirates still abound...even after Spotify and iTunes and Grooveshark and so on exist. Redbox gives first run movies out for a buck. Movies are still pirated because people won't even pay a dollar to get a movie.

It's obvious to me that people steal music, movies and software because they are unprincipled and unethical - not because the price isn't right - not because it's not convenient enough - they just don't
care what happens to people as long as they get what they want. Entitlement IOWs.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by rack gear

the music is the product and the value... you are confusing the product with the container...

I'd argue music is not a product. It is a profound experience or relationship between an artist and that artist's other fans. The stupidest move we ever made was the whole concept of replacing the album with "portable music" and the "compact disk" because they jettisoned a lot of every album fan's visual and tactile experience. Nobody was looking at what people were actually doing with the music they opened their wallets to buy.

"Portable music" is really a replacement for the companionship of radio, something people never paid for, rather than the record album which was something fans eagerly lined up to buy. We in music identified with our creations and mistakenly believed that our almighty recordings were a desirable stand-alone product. I think we tripped over our own manhood big-time and are paying dearly for that mistake today.

There is a solution which is simply to increase the quality of the album experience and that must include packaging. Now that record stores are all but gone, the door is open for lots more artistic packaging which is a spectacular opportunity. WalMart and Target no longer dictate the album package's form and Apple needn't.