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what is the best approach to get a record contract? selling music vs. free music
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treewhispers
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#1
25th March 2011
Old 25th March 2011
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what is the best approach to get a record contract? selling music vs. free music

I would be highly interested on your opinion... I really need a good advice how to start
with my music "career".
let`s assume I am a musician who wants a record deal some day and has recorded plenty of songs
but still almost no listeners, so no fanbase and no options to gig...

honestly I would like to sell my music and getting paid for it because I have worked three years on my productions and spent much money for it and can`t earn something with gigs because I have no band and I am no "singer-songwriter". - on the other hand as far as I know almost all unknown bands/musicans don`t earn more than about 60 bucks via i-tunes & co per year! and most people aren`t interested to buy music from unknown artists because they often think
if it were good music the artist would be already better know. so they look more for the already well-known bands.

so if I can believe this statistics I have barely a chance to earn something.
would listeners even pay for my music if there are so many other musicians who give
their music away for free at the same time?

by giving it away for free it would be probably easier to find listeners - but on the other hand if music is free people could think it has not much worth. nowadays the people generally see music not as something that is worthy of paying for. so if I would release my music for free
I would support this mindset that artist shouldn`t get paid and that it were ok to get music without paying something for.

on the other hand I probably could earn so few with music that this little money bears incommensurate to convince people to pay for my music. - yet if I wanna release music for free even then I had to convince people to pay attention. "free" is not an argument for paying attention to new music.

but maybe the attention my music would get if I release it for free is more worth and a better argument for it`s quality than the little money I could earn from some sells. just earning some bucks doesn`t help me to pay new equipment or to finance the gear I already bought.

but if there is not enough attention I would maybe look back in acrimony and ask myself why I
have not try to sell it to make at least some money with it? so if just few people are interested even if the music is free, why not letting them pay for it?

what needs a record company as proof that music had deserved a chance? 1 million youtube-clicks or just more than 100 sells per year via itunes?
so would they look how many attention the music gets and then decide if they could sell it? or would they look if this music has already generated a "market" and if some people are already willing to pay for?

so maybe they think if it came to 200 sold mp3s, though I couldn`t afford real promo for my music, they could make a lot more sells if they would make good promotion for it?

but maybe then they think just a few hundrets sells is no proof that there are hundrets and thousands people more outside who would pay something for it... but 1 million clicks on youtube where a better argument that the music would be sellable!?

but how to get so many youtube-clicks without adding people on youtube like crazy and maybe this could take years...

so I really have great problems to dealing with the fact that there are just few people who would buy music today and the mindset of the labels, because they are thinking in market-terms
and if I take the wrong strategic, I don`t see real chances for a record deal.

because both solutions could be wrong. if I find some people who buy my music this may be not enough to convince a record company but still could be enough.... if I give music for free and get much attention this may be not enough because the company could say that I have many listeners but still I didn`t sold music... and what numbers does it need to convince them that the music gets really much attention?

on the other hand even if I can`t earn money with music I don`t like to support this attitude that musicians don`t get paid for their productions and therefor have to release everything for free. still I wanna come out with my music and find listeners for it. maybe some people would like the music but not wanna buy it because they just like it but don`t love it or they simply need their money for other things that are more important to them than music.
in this case the number of sells were much smaller than the number of people who actually like the music.

it somehow annoys me to await getting paid bevore I can show others my music because how can any music make at least a small contribute to the music culture itself if this music would be just for the few people who
still would pay for music of an unknown artist!?

these few people who are willing to pay may become a large number if your a well-known band/musicians and then
it makes a huge difference if such a band gives their music away for free or sells it. - but for a small artist like me???

so if in doubt may it be more important to reach 300 people with free music (and earn nothing with it but make a small contribute to the music in this world) or to make 100 mp3-sells and earn just a few bucks to buy a cheap leather jacket or your next DI-box from this though you need a manley massive passive??

on the other hand I know examples from artist who could have earned a lot with their first cd but because of filesharing they lost thousand of bucks and couldn`t work as musicians just because people refuse to pay but still want the music...

so I`m just at the very start and still feel completly desillusionated and lost (!) in nowadays "music industry", with the "consumer behaviour" or wahtever you may call this jungle...

best wishes

tree whispers
#2
25th March 2011
Old 25th March 2011
  #2
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Here's my .02 cents.

Attempting to make a living as a recording artist has always been very difficult. Now it's even more of a sucker's bet than it used to be, for a couple of reasons IMO.

First, people are being allowed to steal product so it's harder for everyone to get paid.

Second (which is at least partially a function of reason #1), artists have to wear even more hats than they used to. Bands always had to do a certain amount of self promotion, but you basically have to do it all yourself now. It's a perfect Catch-22...the labels aren't going to be interested in you unless you don't need them.

I know there are people on the board who will say, "if your music is good enough, you will draw people to you." And some of those people have lots more experience than I do, so it is will all due respect that I disagree with that statement as a 100% accurate axiom. I think it depends upon many factors, some of which you have control over and others which you don't.

What I am leading up is to say that it doesn't just depend upon how good an artist you are, to a greater or lesser degree (depending upon some of the variables I alluded to above) it also depends upon how good a marketer you are, particularly how good you are in today's climate, which relies on outlets not used 15 or 20 years ago. The unfortunate fact is that those skills sets do not always coincide in one person or even one band.

I wish I could tell you that if you made the best music possible, that would be your best chance of success, but it doesn't work that way. If you aren't a good marketer, better find someone who is.

And even all of that said, it's still just very difficult right now to make money making music. Might think about taking a good day job and relating to music as a serious hobby.
#3
25th March 2011
Old 25th March 2011
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Cool you don't

If you want to make a "go" of it, forget about the majors. There are a ton of threads about how to do it, where to spend your $. Majors are only interested in a safe investment, they want shit that they know sells. This is NOT what art is. Art is taste and it takes time to find an audience. Make great music, hone your craft, become GREAT and an audience will find you. i've been doing this for YEARS and have only recently made good $. My a-hole ex-girlfriend has gone supernova by "selling out", that is one path. It ain't what i'd do. Stay true to what you want to do and be ready to fail daily, get back up and keep going.

If you ain't doing it because you love it, then get out now.
treewhispers
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#4
25th March 2011
Old 25th March 2011
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thanks to both of you for your 2 cents...

though I can refer to what you suggest me I still need an adviece if I should start wih selling music by myself or if it would be better to give the music away for free from the start? - so what`s the best way?

I could maybe make both, some songs free and other songs just for the listeners who buy a cd or a digital mp3-bundle?

basically I must know what worked best for others and then I can adapt their "business" concept and hope for the best.
so if you would suggest me a good way I would follow and would have trust in the experience you made so far.

best wishes

treewhispers
#5
26th March 2011
Old 26th March 2011
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Cool free

Your music is the "advertisement" for the "product" which is your band. You have to invert the established paradigm. Making $ off of the music alone is no longer the way to go when starting out. Give it away for free, make cool videos, perfect your live show, have cool merch. Live and merch is where the $ lies these days, this is why the "360 Deal" was invented.

Use kickstarter to raise funds to record your album giving donors credit or special thanx in the finished artwork. Have packages available, CD+shirt for a lower price than the two purchased separately.

Have CD's to purchase at shows and, when u are done playing, stick around. Talk to EVERY fan, sign whatever they have for you. Build it one-on-one. These early fans are the "early-adopters" of the tech-world. You need them. Make them feel important.

Exposure = fans.

You need fans. Give 'em what they want. Does it kinda suck? Yup. But the "Good Ol' Days" are gone, adapt and overcome or die.

MOST IMPORTANT - be honest with yourself, is your shit REALLY THAT GOOD?

Cultural Darwinism.

Last edited by britdick; 26th March 2011 at 12:40 AM.. Reason: ?
treewhispers
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#6
26th March 2011
Old 26th March 2011
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yeah, I see. but the problem is I can`t earn something with gigs because I have no band and I need other musicians to perform the songs live...

furthermore even with a band it takes many months or maybe even years to get a good reputation and enough fans who would come to the gigs so that you can earn something.

that`s why the recorded music would be the only thing to earn something with.
- yes, I could sell t-shirts but I truly don`t believe that listeners are more interested in shirts than music. so it would need a bigger fanbase to sell t-shirts regulary. and the problem is that a real fan buys maybe just one shirt but would buy every single song if he has no other possiblity to get the music...

if musicians who are on major labels spread their music via mtv & co they can earn something with this. if unknown artists spread their best songs via myspace they earn nothing... still they have to give their music away for free... that`s what we believe because we see that the listeners don`t pay for music anymore. - but they also doesn`t pay because so many bands give their music away for free. if they had to pay for, I believe that more people would buy it and not just the hardcore-fanbase, as long as there are no illegal possibilities to get the music...

if a major label artist would just show a sample of the song in a video no one would become really interested and it were somehow strange.
- but as "myspace-artist" it were better to give people just samples to increase the chance that they buy something. - at least if one gets more and more listeners and good comments about the music.

if I could earn something with recorded music, I could afford the gear for making cool videos or could even hire some musicians for live-gigs.

you are totally right that it`s hard to sell music today and that it`s better to focus on live-gigs and other things. - but these things need a budget too and the record-sells were something that could give an artist a budget for all these other creative work...

of course making videos musn`t be expensive but if you will make really professional videos it costs a lot and even really good artwork from a good designer is not for free or professional photo-shootings.

I have no budget for all these things from my main-job, - that`s the problem. but I "could" have it, if record-sells "would" still work today, at least I could have the "chance" to have it...

so it`s sad that the consumer behaviour and expectations "steal" this opportunity and that most musicians are so liberate and give the people what they await, without at least trying to sell the music themselfs.

I know no unknown band who "really" tries to earn something with their recorded music though it would be possible if they wouldn`t give their best songs away in full length. but I can understand that people are proud of their songs and wanna show their music to everyone and not just wanna wait untill someone pays them for... if you have created something beautiful you wanna give these moments to others and share your happiness about your own creation and get some attention for it. if the price for attention is giving music away for free than it seems for many people attention is more worth than money. - this is ok but it`s not so useful if you earn just a few in your job or don`t wanna take a 2nd and 3th job. so why are people musicians, just to work in other stupid jobs to afford beeing a musician and give others free music???

so giving music away for free just makes sense to get more good comments and feedback and to generate all the numbers and attention that could convience other people to give you a record contract or your next gig...

today it may be easier to get 10 good comments on youtube than to sell 10 cds/mp3s - and the buyers of the cd/mp3s wouldn`t probably make a public comment later. then I buy a cd I usually don`t post a comment on the band website afterwards - but if I would heart their cd on their website most likely I would make a comment. that`s the beauty of things like myspace and youtube: people can hear music for free and can write a comment.
so the deal seems to be free music for good feedback that helps a band getting deeper into the business. but in case one gets bad comments it`s a different story.

the other deal were some sells but probbaly just few comments but this would help to buy also really good gear one day or to finance even good promotion. still to really make a living from that it would need a huge bunch of sells and therefor a popularity where it`s most likely that the music is already on youtube for free... and if you erase it, a few days later another idiot uploads your music again. - so then this catch-22 will stop you suddenly in your effort to earn something with music and no one of these uploaders will ask you, if you have even ever earned something with this music... but if a band get`s so popular the chances to earn something with gigs are there. sadly I know about bands who are not so popular, have a record contract and their record gets downloaded illegaly so that they lost 20.000 bucks and could earned just a little with their cd...
and if such a band can`t play gigs anymore it`s a lost band and so the band isn`t independent from record-sells because instead of record-sells they badly need these gigs... - but how has a artists more freedom? if he can sell his cd or if he has to make a big tour every few months?

I`m thankful for "kickstarter". having the budget for better productions is the most important thing.

I don`t know if my music is "really good". I just know that I got more good comments about than any other bands in my region and that it`s possible to find many listeners for it. of course based on the genre of music I make.

so maybe even in an intersubjective way my music is good. I see my music as "art". not art in an "experimental" way or too "modern", just art in the sense of authentic music which comes from the heart and could stand up even with more or less actual well-known bands and songs. -not in terms of production but in terms of the music.

for my personal taste it`s at least better than most things I hear on the radio these days, - but many things are better than most of the crap in the radio.
so I don`t believe there is a real objective way to decide if something is good or not and this is not the question maybe. the question might be if it`s good enough to more people than just me.

so it could be just crap but if enough people like it, then it can`t be really bad. then it may be bad in the sense that`s no art and just mediocre music but good in the sense that it`s commercial and easy-going enough to appeal to many people. - I guess it`s somwhere in between. making real art is not enough, beeing commercial is not enough.

best wishes

treewhispers
#7
26th March 2011
Old 26th March 2011
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Cool truth

You are not going to make enough off of your recorded stuff to survive for a REALLY long time. Accept it. Find dudes that want to be in a band. Play. Get a shit job. i've had PLENTY, as have most of the people on GS. It seems like you are trying to out-argue the truth and you can't.

This is the reality. This is a REALLY hard business to make it in. Really hard. You have to love it. You have to want to do nothing else. You have to want to do it more than NOT do it, and then, MAYBE something happens. 9 out of 10 it doesn't and you just keep going.

Record sales didn't allow bands to do more stuff, RECORD LABEL ADVANCES AND TOUR SUPPORT DID. And all of that needed to be paid back. This is how it used to work. It ain't like that anymore. Nobody buys music. Back in the 80's most of the bands that i was into didn't sell shit either. Just merch and tickets, and then records at shows. It was all indie. DIY. To be honest you sound a little like some of the bands that i work with. All of this talk of what you CAN'T do when you have amazing shit at your disposal. Shoot a video on your iPhone, edit it in iMovie, post it AS SOON AS YOU ARE DONE WITH IT. Get an Mbox. Learn how to record your own shit. Quit whining about how records don't sell anymore and instead look at all of the amazing shit that you can do WITHOUT needing anyone else. Email a million blogs your music. Get it out there. Scrimp and save to tour. Play anywhere. Anytime. For anyone. This is the new indie and there are bands doing it EVERYDAY. Do it! Watch documentaries of other bands from back-in-the-day. Realise that it is no different now, but at the same time ENTIRELY different. Get 'er done.

Do it all and chances are, shit is still gonna fail. Go down swinging.
If these odds don't interest you, stop now. i quit 62 times a year, at least.
Good luck, young Jedi.
#8
26th March 2011
Old 26th March 2011
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I think everything else that needs to be said has been said.

However, if you're not sure if you music is 'really good' then I would imagine others might not find it 'really good' too.

From what I've come across people who have good music know it's good.

I always imagine to myself when I write a hook etc, 'would I pay $1,000 to get this into the rights hands to be placed with an artist?'. Knowing that it's so good it will get placed as long as there's no BS A&R stuff going on. If not, it's probably best to trash it and start another track.
#9
26th March 2011
Old 26th March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treewhispers View Post
that`s why the recorded music would be the only thing to earn something with.
- yes, I could sell t-shirts but I truly don`t believe that listeners are more interested in shirts than music. so it would need a bigger fanbase to sell t-shirts regulary. and the problem is that a real fan buys maybe just one shirt but would buy every single song if he has no other possiblity to get the music...

if musicians who are on major labels spread their music via mtv & co they can earn something with this. if unknown artists spread their best songs via myspace they earn nothing... still they have to give their music away for free... that`s what we believe because we see that the listeners don`t pay for music anymore. - but they also doesn`t pay because so many bands give their music away for free. if they had to pay for, I believe that more people would buy it and not just the hardcore-fanbase, as long as there are no illegal possibilities to get the music...
piracy is definitely a problem, it's created a culture of empowered hobbyists and dis-empowered professionals. however, long before piracy baby bands were giving their music away, any way they could to be heard, and at their own expense.

today the problem is, any one can do it, so the noise in the signal to noise ratio is so high, a baby band has to work that much harder to get above the noise floor which is now 99% hobbyists - who have about as much career aspirations to be pro, as lottery ticket buyers have to being entrepreneurs.
#10
29th March 2011
Old 29th March 2011
  #10
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U are whining quite a bit. Read Lefsetz Blog regularly to get the pulse of society and content consumption. Britdick has some great advice as well. Make sure your music kicks ass..

Martin Atkins of Public Image LTD said this recently at SXSW.

"It’s not a problem if 20,000 people ‘illegally’ download your music. It’s a problem if they don’t."

As the bar gets higher and higher to gain peoples attention, I really believe this should be our new mantra.


Turn It Up: SXSW 2011: Martin Atkins throws blueberry muffins at music industry
#11
29th March 2011
Old 29th March 2011
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I think the main advice was to get a band.
Which only goes to prove what I've been saying for years. Recorded music that's just music will suffer greatly under piracy. Recorded music that's a promotional tool will survive.
Personally I love recorded music and am not so keen on promotions.
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#12
29th March 2011
Old 29th March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
piracy [has] created a culture of empowered hobbyists and dis-empowered professionals.
That about sums it up. Well done.
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#13
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
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You are not going to make enough off of your recorded stuff to survive for a REALLY long time. Accept it. Find dudes that want to be in a band. Play. Get a shit job. i've had PLENTY, as have most of the people on GS. It seems like you are trying to out-argue the truth and you can't."

1. I don`t wanna out-argue the truth and the facts. I just ask, must it really be the way it is nowadays?

2. "finding dudes that wanna be in a band..." - I tell you the less chances musicians have to earn something with music
in the future the less they really want to invest much work for a band... then they see it simply more just as hobby.
but creating good music and reach people with it can`t just be a hobby because it needs often so much work like a normal
job.

3. ask yourself why many people on GS have to work in shitjobs instead of working as musicians?
and I`m sure many people here on GS could earn something with their music that would give them at least a little budget if people would see music as something that is worthy of paying for.
so all these musicians can thank the(ir) !!! listeners if they have just the option to work in shit jobs and that their music can`t nothing change about that. essepcially if they notice that the people like their music but still don`t buy something.

4. why wouldn`t record sales allow bands to do more stuff? if a band has sold about 100.000 cds they earn at least 1 dollar with every sold unit. so they earned 100.000 dollar, so (if the band has 4 members) 25.000 dollar for every bandmember...

5. yeah but it`s no argument that most band in the 80s didn`t sell records too, because they
got round about 80% higher fees for a live gig than today and people then bought more often records at shows because in the 80s there was no internet to download the stuff from the band
or hear it in a myspace-player... so you`re comparing apples with oranges.

6. yes today it`s possible to do a lot of stuff without needing anyone else. even without a video
one can have it`s own "youtube"-clip just by adding some pictures... and even without an Mbox, so even for cheaper, you can record something in more or less acceptable quality (think apogee one,
old vintage pre-amp-moduls from telefunken and so on, some overseen and forgotten mixing desks from the 80s and a lot more).

many gear that just a few people could afford in the 80s sells today pretty cheap on the used-market. on the other hand the musicians today need this low-costs gear because they earn often nothing with the music and that makes it harder to buy gear because it makes you more dependent from the income of your normal job.
musicians always belonged to the few people who had at least the chance to make their dream real and don`t need shit jobs anymore. so they were slaves in the system as everyone else but slaves with the potential to work for their art and not for an employer.
so where`s this chance gone to?

it`s not neccessarily a good think that musicians can and must do so much themselfs.
it`s a risk for other creative jobs, designers, audio engineers.. how could musicians afford them if they have just a low budgets? in the 80s you could sell 100 records and pay your studio fees. so if the music was good then it was sellable but nowadys even if the music is good it`s not really sellable anymore. this means there`s almost no difference between making shit music that would never sell a unit and really good music, because for the good music the people don`t wanna pay too.

7. it makes no sense anymore for musicians to play for "everyone". it makes sense if you can be sure that the 10 people in the crowd who like your music will buy your cd later. - but it makes no sense if this 10 people just download your myspace-stream as mp3 on the day after your gig...

maybe these 10 people will come to your next gig too but some day there won`t be any "next" gigs anymore because all the years you sold no records and just very little merch and so you have no budget for touring over great distances and so you can`t even play for your other myspace-audience. so this will burn you out and will demoralize you completly.
your just giving, giving, giving and they are taing, taking, taking. does this look like a good relationship to you?
the listener stoday aren`t with the new small bands anymore, even if they really like them they don`t support them as much as
listeners in the 80s had supported a new band.

8. you should know I really like you and I thank you for your good advice but I can`t share your opinion because I`ve heared such words much to often. I must admit, it`s stupid if you and a lot of other (basically "all) people always say "nobody buys music" and that`s it. ever asked why?
"nobody" buys music because there`s filesharing. so fight against the filesharing and then people have no other possibility than to buy it. and fighting against it means to buy music again, also if your a musicians.

no one buys music because there are zillion of independent and even some well-known famous bands who gave their music away for free. so stop giving it away for free. just post a snippet of it and if the listeners likes the song he "WILL" buy it and must buy it, because he can`t download the ****ing stream and he can`t find a torrent. - so why should a band be so stupid to give the listeners the music from free from the very start? if a band is on the very start, there are no torrents, no illegall offers, so they had the best chance to sell some cds. and if they keep their eyes open if their music is already shared illegaly on the net, they can make something against this offers and these offers won`t be many if the band is pretty unknown. it may be much work for lady gaga to get rid of all of the torrents for her music but not for a band that is just at the beginning.
I can`t understand why bands don`t see this chance and try to give everything away from free as if it were a hard fact that really "nobody buys music".

if you give away everything for free just because your are "unknown" and hope to find listeners.
this is the same as a company would say, we can`t afford advertisement, so we give away our products for free and so we can find at least persons who like us and our products. - how stupid is that!?!?

if a musicians releases music for free (and also if he never buys music) he makes it harder for the musicians that are depper into the biz already and really need to make a living from their music, because the amateur musicians
show the people that music is not worty of paying for.
so these musicians create a certain mindset and if these musicians will become famous one day, they will suffer from a mindset they helped created, because they alway supported the idea that recorded music is just a gift for listeners or a promo-tool for the next gig and I say it`s not. It`s ****ing not, a recording is art, like a painted pictures and if one likes this art he or she has to pay for.
if bands want attention and wanna find new listeners they can reach this by posting song-snippets or just the half of a song on myspace. - this is enough to get clicks and comments but is saves the chances to sell some records.

9. all this stupid idea with "free music" was inofficially supported by the majors themself, because they know that in a world where only major labels can earn enough with music they don`t have to be afraid of the indie-labels and independent musicians and so they have more or less no competitors.
they just hoped for that people would be stupid enough to give their music away for free and indeed they were! and they hoped that enough talentless amteur-musicians would also wanna release something at the internet. at "myspace" there`s no seperation between the good and the shit bands. there so no rating system for the band-sites there. you can`t find something good quckily and just the major artists get real promo at myspace. so myspace was not created with the thought in mind to be a good tool for newcomers it was created with the thought in mind to demoralize newcomers and give them just the illusion of a real chance.
#14
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #14
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"Art" is just something for people who make music that nobody wants to hear to hide behind.

Truth: You aren't going to make any money if you're the only person willing to pay to hear your music.

If you want to make money, make music that people are willing to pay to hear.

It's just that simple...
treewhispers
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#15
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #15
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treewhispers is offline
Quote:
Martin Atkins of Public Image LTD said this recently at SXSW.

"It’s not a problem if 20,000 people ‘illegally’ download your music. It’s a problem if they don’t."


totally bullshit.... how could this be our new mantra?

ok, d`you wanna sit at home 10 hours a day and spam social network profiles with your music??? just in the hope that in the end 20.000 people download your music without paying something for...
so yes, maybe after 10 years (!!!!) of spaming 20.000 people will download your music some day... good luck...

it all can`t work with a major label or the same budget like a major for promoting your music.
why is this so hard to understand?

if 20.000 people illegally download your song they steal your music, so they steal the result of your work.
why is this so hard to understand?

if 20.000 people illegally download (=stealing) your song they don`t care about your income and how much work it was writting AND producing your song. so they do care just about the music maybe but not about the creator of this music, so they don`t care about you and your life and from which money you will buy your next guitar-strings...
why is this so hard to understand?

if 20.000 people illegally download your song you still don`t know how many of them would buy your song in case they can just get the music by paying something for...!
so probably some thousands of people just download it for free because "free" is "very cheap" and if it`s cheap you don`t have to demand high standards... it`s a totally different question if you would pay something for a song if you can`t get it for free!
I say if a song is really good, people will pay.
so 200 sold records mean much much mire than 20.000 illegally downloads and are basically the same.
because if you have 20.000 "listeners" who hear you music for free
most likely just 200 of them will also buy the record.





Sim
#16
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #16
Sim
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Make a plan! most important thing. I'm just gonna reel off some stuff real quick...

You need to do anything to get a buzz about your music find your demographic and market your self enough to get the ball rolling. Just because you give music to people for free doesn't mean they'll have it by the way especially if they don't know about it. Anything anyone can find out about your music should be under your control. Good ways of identifying demographic can be google analytic's and facebook statistics or giving a free track to people who sign up to your mailing list as an incentive .
Be spotted in the right media for your demographic. People need to make the connection between different media to start taking you seriously, one source won't do. Collaborate with bigger artist who like your music and aim for a pub deal right songs for other people. Both will give you validity on a professional level. That can contribute hugely to get a rec deal. If it works, get a manager your not a professionally and labels like dealing with professional. Compile a list of a&r and find out they names contact and anything they get up follow them on twitter whatever it takes to gain a solid contact not an email address of some internet contact directory and only contact them when your know you are ready. Be careful with production deals but it also go to get validation by working with/developed by a well known producer.

A jumble of stuff there
Sim
#17
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #17
Sim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treewhispers View Post




ok, d`you wanna sit at home 10 hours a day and spam social network profiles with your music??? just in the hope that in the end 20.000 people download your music without paying something for...
so yes, maybe after 10 years (!!!!) of spaming 20.000 people will download your music some day... good luck...






thumbsup you need to make people find you not force your way in. You need to make people think the know about something good no one else does and there fore they feel special/ privelaged whatever you wanna call it. Be precious with you media, put in the right places and the places that count. Do nothing half heartedly
Sim
#18
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #18
Sim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdenton View Post
"Art" is just something for people who make music that nobody wants to hear to hide behind.

Truth: You aren't going to make any money if you're the only person willing to pay to hear your music.

If you want to make money, make music that people are willing to pay to hear.

It's just that simple...
No it's not... Media tells people what to buy the consumer does not dictate fashions. Once people are convinced they like something by media they pay for it. Thats what advertising/ marketing does, it makes people think they want to buy something so they do, the product is almost irrelevant.
#19
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #19
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If your music is not "HOT" enough to steal than folks sure are not going to pay for it.

WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

Have you yourself bought MP3's based on hearing a 20 second snippet?

If so how many? Indie and Major?

Heres a good article about how the internet well...

Deja View: The Internet disrupts everything it touches | ZDNet

Not saying I want it to be this way..just saying thats the way it is. People are overloaded with FREE content all day an all night. Shoved in their faces all day long..on Facebook, here and there. Entertainment is pretty much free, outside of internet connection costs. I dont have a TV right now, I dont have cable..I can watch a ton of shit on the net for free..HULU for starters.

Would you pay for a GearSlutz membership?
#20
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #20
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by giving it away for free it would be probably easier to find listeners - but on the other hand if music is free people could think it has not much worth. nowadays the people generally see music not as something that is worthy of paying for. so if I would release my music for free
I would support this mindset that artist shouldn`t get paid and that it were ok to get music without paying something for.

If you "value" your music in dollars sell it. If you value your music in terms of "demand" Give it away. If you value your music for the "movement" in the music, then let your music move itself.

Quit over-analyzing "people" using street philosophy with disregard to motives of the "people."

If you ask the 20000 people downloading music "how they value music in their lives." they would answer, "highly." The problem with this society is everyone wants something for free. Including the musicians.

Just look around the site for the "How do I get my 808 to sound like this records or guitars like that records?" Instead of trying we want it handed to us. I have said this more than once on this forum, "you gotta do the best you can with what you got!" Always move forward in "your' direction and you wont get blown around with all the coming and going of fads.
I wish you the best of luck bro!
__________________
For the love of music. Peace!
Sim
#21
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #21
Sim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BachEnvy View Post
U are whining quite a bit. Read Lefsetz Blog regularly to get the pulse of society and content consumption. Britdick has some great advice as well. Make sure your music kicks ass..

Martin Atkins of Public Image LTD said this recently at SXSW.

"It’s not a problem if 20,000 people ‘illegally’ download your music. It’s a problem if they don’t."

As the bar gets higher and higher to gain peoples attention, I really believe this should be our new mantra.


Turn It Up: SXSW 2011: Martin Atkins throws blueberry muffins at music industry
Even if this is true he's referring to a successful marketing plan. Marketing makes people listen to the music and buy or illegally download it hence a successful campaign results in large amounts of both. If you don't have good campaign your down on both hence less downloads would be worrying as your sales would be low also, then there is a problem with the marketing campaign.

Anyway the whole i idea of illegal download promotion is bs sales haven't decreased. The problems of illegal downloads is that it has made music worth less. The lower price of music out wieghs any sales gained from illegal downloads if they did have a promotional value to them.
Sim
#22
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #22
Sim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treewhispers View Post


I say if a song is really good, people will pay.
so 200 sold records mean much much mire than 20.000 illegally downloads and are basically the same.
because if you have 20.000 "listeners" who hear you music for free
most likely just 200 of them will also buy the record.





Are crazy! people buy music because its good.

You wrong wrong wrong. People aren't going to buy you music if you don't promote it any one with 20'000 illegal downloads would have promoted it hence the would have go sales. I would say 20'000 (which is terrible by the way) legal sales would be more likely equal to 200 illegal sales.

No if your where talking about premium edge marketing.....
Sim
#23
31st March 2011
Old 31st March 2011
  #23
Sim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threesymbol View Post
by giving it away for free it would be probably easier to find listeners - but on the other hand if music is free people could think it has not much worth. nowadays the people generally see music not as something that is worthy of paying for. so if I would release my music for free
I would support this mindset that artist shouldn`t get paid and that it were ok to get music without paying something for.

If you "value" your music in dollars sell it. If you value your music in terms of "demand" Give it away. If you value your music for the "movement" in the music, then let your music move itself.

Quit over-analyzing "people" using street philosophy with disregard to motives of the "people."

If you ask the 20000 people downloading music "how they value music in their lives." they would answer, "highly." The problem with this society is everyone wants something for free. Including the musicians.
FREE MUSIC DOES NOT EQUAL MORE FANS OR SALES

There's no proof!
Giving away music for free on a mass industry scale does not work probably not even in isolated attempts. But using it to get your demographic is widely done in the industry.

Motives of people??? The majority of people get told what to do by the press their motives especially with music are dictated to them.

If you ask the 20000 people selling music "how they value music in their lives." they would answer, "highly." The problem with this society is everyone wants to get paid for their work. Including the musicians. hahaha It takes two tango...
#24
1st April 2011
Old 1st April 2011
  #24
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Heimel is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
Motives of people??? The majority of people get told what to do by the press their motives especially with music are dictated to them.
That's not what I've been told.
Sim
#25
1st April 2011
Old 1st April 2011
  #25
Sim
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#26
8th April 2011
Old 8th April 2011
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
FREE MUSIC DOES NOT EQUAL MORE FANS OR SALES

There's no proof!
Giving away music for free on a mass industry scale does not work probably not even in isolated attempts. But using it to get your demographic is widely done in the industry.

Motives of people??? The majority of people get told what to do by the press their motives especially with music are dictated to them.

If you ask the 20000 people selling music "how they value music in their lives." they would answer, "highly." The problem with this society is everyone wants to get paid for their work. Including the musicians. hahaha It takes two tango...
No, it doesn't. But look at it this way - if a lot of people are stealing music, what does a band have to lose by putting out their release for free? If there's no demand to buy a product, then the product will not sell.

Obviously if there is demand, then you sell the release because you'll want to make any potential $$ that's out there. But for bands starting out giving a release out for free is a solid way to go.

I really doubt that some kid is sitting in front of his computer thinking, 'hmm this band sounds good but they're giving their music away. i'm going to value this less than the dr. dre album i COULD buy in stores, but i'll just steal anyway.'
Sim
#27
9th April 2011
Old 9th April 2011
  #27
Sim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rewindable View Post
No, it doesn't. But look at it this way - if a lot of people are stealing music, what does a band have to lose by putting out their release for free? If there's no demand to buy a product, then the product will not sell.

Obviously if there is demand, then you sell the release because you'll want to make any potential $$ that's out there. But for bands starting out giving a release out for free is a solid way to go.

I really doubt that some kid is sitting in front of his computer thinking, 'hmm this band sounds good but they're giving their music away. i'm going to value this less than the dr. dre album i COULD buy in stores, but i'll just steal anyway.'
If there is no demand then no one will illegal or legally want you music. Using a track as promotional tool and giving it away is the only exception. You can't have alot of either unless you have both. Marketing strategies make people buy or illegally download music not because it's free. Also any major artist's music can be obtained for free therefore promotion is even more important as the is no competition linked with cost. no one buys music because it price value.

Giving a way your music for free is actually not giving your music away for free. Hence to get more downloads you need money to promoted your music then your forced to put a price on your music if you want people to hear it.
#28
9th April 2011
Old 9th April 2011
  #28
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Stolen Art- what a concept!
Sim
#29
9th April 2011
Old 9th April 2011
  #29
Sim
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Well if you mean people want to steal it because they want it. They need to want it first before they steal it and you can't want without knowing about it.
Distribution/ purchases of any sort needs promotion
treewhispers
Thread Starter
#30
9th June 2011
Old 9th June 2011
  #30
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treewhispers is offline
so we should spent money on effective promotion so that more listeners have a chance to don`t spent money for our music...
that`s exactly what you guys said (ok, more or less....).

so first we should promote our free music because people don`t pay for music. later if we want more listeners we should try to sell the music because we have too high promotion-costs...
but come one...why should they want to pay for a song that was free from the very start? just because we spam 10.000 people more with promotion?
how could a listener believe that we suddenly have higher promotion-costs?

so this all makes no sense. giving music away for free is no busines-modell.

ok, you guys may doubt that people would buy a song just because of a 20 second clip. I have bought even whole albums just because of some 10 second-sample which made me curious to find out how the rest of the music will sound!
so let me ask a question: would you buy a song i you can hear it already in full-length? ok, maybe if you wanna really support the band, if you want the music in cd-quality or if you just have too much money.
most people use tools to download streams as mp3s...
so there`s really no need to buy music. totally unknown bands give it away for free and youtube and rapidshare give you the music from popular bands for free.

I mean even highly popular artists with million of fans speak about that they will most likely sell just 500 units of an new album if they release it in vinyl. the others will download this shit then.

so buying music is just for the people who want the music combined with something physical and these are rather the hardcore-fans.
that`s why the most artists make deluxe-booklet, add live-dvds, posters, shirts... dope? whatever!
but how can a unknown band on a small budget afford to realize really professional add-ons...?

for any other listeners it`s not about a deluxe-version he or she just wants the music - for free.
so though these kind of listeners like the music pretty much this won`t mirror in the record-sells.
and 20.000 free downloads of a song...this is nothing... the labels just see that 20.000 people prefered downloading this music for free.
but 200 sells is in your region is way better because it shows a label that this band has fans that are willing to invest something for this band, even if they don`t gig.
still fans are to stupid too see that it helps the bands then hey buy something. instead they often think, "hey gee, it`s just one album, how can this be a disadvantage for the band?".

I also doubt that it would help to give listener the feeling they had found something special. every unknown band is just one of million other unknown bands. people know this and as long as band can not perfectly match the taste in music of a listener the listener won`t see this band as something special or the next big think.

just my two cent...
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